sudden snail death

[Brianc_4]

Over the last three weeks I have had several snail deaths. The first to go was a turbo. I removed him promptly, tested the water, and did a partial water change. All params were in line. I waited a week, retested the water, and once again all was fine. I then bought two trochus snails to replace the turbo. And now this morning I found both trochus dead as well as a cerith. WTF!!

I tested the water again, and again all looks fine.

Here are all my tanks specs.

*20gal high, 2x55w pcs(10k and 03), Bakpak, 100w heater, milenium filter, 3 powerheads

*corals: 1 bubble, 1 branching hammer, yellow polyps, red open brain, some zoos and a couple of tiny shrooms.

*Fish: 2 false percs

*Inverts: 1 red hermit, 6 astreas, 3 bumblebess, 3 nassaurius, 2 queen conchs(very small), 3 ceriths..uuh make that two, and a cleaner

* latest water param temp:80, pH: 8.1, spg: 1.024, Ammonia:0

Nitrite:0, Nitrate:7, dkh:11, Ca:390

*additives: B-ionic, seachem iodine, Tropic marin salt(recently switched to this about two weeks ago)

* foods: ESV phytoplankton, Prime Reef flakes, Mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, and plain old pieces of regular shrimp for the bubble and the brain.

 

I'm pretty much stumped, the tank has been up and running for about 5 months. There has been a very small amount of red cyano in the tank over the last week or week or so, but certainly not enough to do any significant damage. Could it be that after five months, my snails have just eaten more algae than my tank could produce, and the little bastards are just starving? Or does anyone see something that I am missing??

Thanks for the help,

[tinyreef]

the timing points to the TM but i find that REALLY hard to believe. : besides dave's recommendation, i've heard many others (respected opinions) rave about it. i haven't tried it myself tho. (cheap bastage, i will i will X) )

 

can you add some poly-filter to the millenium? i'm thinking some metals or toxins may be in the system somehow. altho the yellow polyps and zoos should register any contaminants first. ???

 

you do have a point with the starvation issue tho. that was quite a bit for a 20g, even if it is an 'H'. try some supplemental nori. those conches and turbo alone would've been almost sufficient imo.

 

the only other issues i would say are the pH and calcium are a little low for a stony environment. it shouldn't affect the snails so drastically but it will stunt their growth and health ime.

[Brianc_4]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure its not metals or toxins. The polyps are doing great. I also find the Tropic marin being the cause very hard to believe, I've also heard many good reviews on it. I'm working on bringing the calcium back up, I was away for four days, and the person taking care of my tank was afraid of dosing it. So, I guess I'm back to the possibility that there just wasn't enough to eat. I'll try the nori, and see what happens

Thanks,

[ross76053]

Not trying to steal your post, Brian, but I'm having a similar issue and wanted to get in on the thread.

 

In the past week I've lost one Astrea, and the other Astreas (5) are motionless and doing nothing. Obviously there's a problem, but I can't find it.

 

Salinity - 1.024

Calium - 450

Alkalinity - 3.5 meq/l

pH - 8.2

Phosphorous - .05 (working on lowering)

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 0

Water Temp - 79 F

Algae - sucks

 

The Astrea shells are getting covered with algae, and every other day I do my best to scrape it off with a toothbrush (I use my wife's).

 

I know that Astreas are very sensitive to changes in salinity, and with the evaporation I'm going through during a 12-hour period (a good 4 cups) , maybe the salinity change is tickin' 'em off. The fluctuation changes from 1.024 to 1.025 in a 12-hour period.

[cmoreash]

Ross how long you had your snails for? If you don't acclimate them long enough, they don't live very long. Just an idea

[ross76053]

3 months - I acclimated them slowly over a three-hour period. My salinity and pH were the same as the LFS's.

[tinyreef]

ross,

your algae problem, is it predominantly derbesia (hair algae)? i've noticed 'tougher' conditions when derbesia runs rampant. maybe the algae is exuding some noxious chemicals? :

 

the only other thing i can think of (besides some pathogen) is temp fluctuations that may stress the snails. another long shot is something the algae uptook and the snails ingested but i would think its previous presence in the water column would've poisoned the snails at that time. ???

[ross76053]

Yep, it's mostly derbesia. Temp doesn't really fluctuate much - maybe a degree on a hot day.

 

Just did a 20% water change to refresh it a little. Thanks for the response - everything you suggested is possible (except the temp), so hopefully a water change will help.

 

I'm tempted to get an Emerald, but my tank just isn't big enough.

[cmoreash]

I think your tank could hold an emerald they are great crabs. Mine cleared out all the valonia and sargassum

[Pikelet]

IME Trochus snails are very long lived but highly sensitive to low pH. They also run out of steam very quickly without sufficient food resources. I feel that it was an acclimation issue with the new Trochus possibly assisted by the nassarius when they found the trochus to be unwell.

 

Trochus are not always easy to acclimate - especially the larger ones. So I'd say the first one died through lack of food and the new additions failed due to acclimation problems and predation - despite your best efforts.

[Dave ESPI]

A lot of good points are brought up so far.

 

Snails IME are the hardest thing to figure out. They dont like PH shifts, salinity swings, and temp variations. Once established, they are tollerant of nitrates up to around 80 PPM (occasionaly higher) and will do well in any salt mix...

BUT !.... they are suceptable to bacterial infections. Id start there.

I had a customers tank that I couldnt keep but 1 snail in. I tested and tested and tested...... Finaly I added a U/V. 3 weeks later, that last snail kicked the bucket.

I did a 1/2 tank w/c and added 15 snails. Two years later 14 of them are still alive.

Just food fer thought.

It could also be a lack of proper alga. You mentioned bryopsis and hair alga. The have a noxious by-product that is an inhibitor in the water ( I recenty found out about) and will cause other inverts to suffer. I have since expunged 90 % of the hair from ALL my tanks (that I try to run as natural as possible even with some hair) Filimentiousalgae is a rough bag. There are 15 or so different strains. Each one has different side effects.

Try running some chemi-Pure and a skimmer. It has done wonders on 2 of my tnaks as well as some Phosguard from Seachem.

 

 

ROSS, and all....

Please dont feel bad.... It is ACTUALY perferred by regs that threads are added to, as opposed to repete questions that need basic 101 info added to them that could be easily answered to by a search... It makes for a better information basis.

[sjpresley]

I used to have the same problem with snail death. I'd put a few in and it never failed one by one they would be hermit food (no, the hermits weren't killing them, just cleaning up the mess). The snails would close up and after a couple days be dead. Happened with Astrea, Trochus, Turbo....

 

I talked to a few people and posted and every one seemed stumped. I acclimated slowly over about 3 hrs because I keep my tank warmer (82) with higher salinity (1.027) than the LFS (1.021). Everything always tested fine. There were no answers. Finally, a woman at the LFS said, "Well, I always just plop mine in, here have a couple Astrea and see what happens." They lived. And so have the Trochus (3), other Astreas (8), Nassarius (10), and Euplica (1). Out of all of those I had one Astrea kick it after a few days. All the rest are doing great.

 

Still don't know what the problem was...but now I have live snails.

[ross76053]

Brian, you catchin' all of this, too?

 

For me, I'm gonna take Dave's advice and put my skimmer back on along with some Chemi-Pure. I'm realizing I probably took off the skimmer too early, since I had an algae problem before I took it off. Should have gotten the algae under control first.

 

And what the hell...I now have an RO system feeding into a DI system....might as well throw on a U/V sterilizer as well...

 

All this for.....uhm.... Snails. Yup, I'm a reefer.

[tgrupert]

I know this is VERY far fetched, but...

 

Is it at all posible that some caffine could be in the tank? even a very small amount is deadly to snails. I don't know if carbon can get rid of it. I sure hope the answer is no. Aslo when using snails to clean up a tank it's a good idea to add them very slowly so they don't wipe out their entire food suply in a few days and then they all die. I have dozens of snails, but I feed them. i'm just a snail maniac.

[DeskJockey]

All of this is very interesting I never knew people had a hard time with snails or that they were that sensitive? Over the last 3 years with various tanks I’ve never had trouble. I used to just drop

them in. Now I acclimate them for about 20 minutes but that’s it. I can only think of two that I’ve lost in the last 9 months. The first was rather sudden and the second was a conch and Im almost

positive it was my damn cleaner shrimp. I had to wave him off many times but he just wouldnt leave him alone.

 

Its weird I always thought of them like my hermits they just take a lickin and keep on tickin

[tgrupert]

in some ways snails are sensitive. In other ways they are hardy. I mean they don't really need a special diet. They live off of "one mans garbage." I don't know if this is true for SW snails, but FW snails can be mailed in nothing but damp newspaper. This is only true for snails with lungs of coarse. most aquatic snails have a lung on one side and a gill on the other. they use a siphon to get the air in their lung. also they don't need to be shipped overnight. Some can be shipped ground!

[tonkadawg]

Last Friday, I put 2 turbos, and 2 margarita's into my 21gal (just finished cycling). Along with these four guys, I added 2 hermits and cleaner shrimp. All were acclimated over a period of 2-3 hours using a slow drip.

 

Not even 24 hrs later, 1 of the margaritas kicked the bucket. Tested: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, Temp 80, SG 1.023. There is no other live stock in the tank.

 

I have what I would guess is hair algea - in mass quantities. It grows like weeds, looks like grass, but in some cases it is red. Tinyreef mentions that algea could release some nasty stuff, this being the case, should I be cleaning my LR and the surface of my LS of the hairy stuff? The turbos appear to be doing some heavy grazing - although leaving me tons of shrimp pellet looking 'presents' if you know what I mean.

 

Other than one casualty, everyone looks good - the shrimp shed it's skin last night. The remaining snails are active and appear to be eating, the hermits are all over the place. Is there anything I should do to better my odds in keeping everyone happy and healthy?

[tinyreef]

i would suggest running some carbon. phosphate removers can't hurt either (watch for temp fluctuation tho).

 

also as you pull the algae out it will still 'bleed' into the system. the algae coagulates pretty quick but still leaves cytoplasm or algae blood-whatever.

 

the toxins i mentioned are just hearsay btw. i've no proof of it but a couple of peeps have also experienced it and read it (i believe).

[tonkadawg]

Originally posted by tinyreef

i would suggest running some carbon.  phosphate removers can't hurt either (watch for temp fluctuation tho).

 

also as you pull the algae out it will still 'bleed' into the system.  the algae coagulates pretty quick but still leaves cytoplasm or algae blood-whatever.  

 

So from the sounds of this, I need to be removing the algea, and not letting the snails do the dirty work? (Just want to be certain I understand clearly before I go monkeying with the tank)

 

Originally posted by tinyreef

the toxins i mentioned are just hearsay btw.  i've no proof of it but a couple of peeps have also experienced it and read it (i believe). [/i]

 

I appologize, I understood that you were passing on hearsay, I just misquoted you in my reply.

[Dave ESPI]

FOr the reccord, Margarita snails kick the bucket all the time. Many snails are shipped in such high numbers in very little water to their destinations, that when a few die, the ammonia in the bags cross toxify and actualy give the gills Ammonia burn in which the meningies and muchus membranes are pitted and slough like slime thus choking "drownding" the snails over time. This can happen to fish gills also, but they can recover faster if the exposure is low.

EVER SMELLED A DEAD SNAIL? even taking one that is less than 48 hours out of a tank will make the room reek to high heaven in the few steps to the garbage can.

There is some truth to artificial salts being culprits also in snail death. A buddy had similar issues. (he was using Coralife)... I got him to switch to IO and TM.

no more deaths. even with new additions. I have seen this to be the case a few times.

 

 

Segue..... in the lighter-side....

DEAD SNAILS CAN BE FUN ! simply save them in the freezer, and when you decide you dont like someone anymore, put them under their drivers seat.... the next afternoon (ESPECIALY IN THE BLISTERING HEAT OF SUMMER) Blammo ! Snailbomb.

[tinyreef]

no prob on the quote, i just didn't want someone to think i knew anything definitive on the subject. i'm just passing around the bong of hobby experience.

 

you can let the snails do the 'dirty work' but ime it'll only get 'done' if you help out. the longer strands tend to be ignored and just trap more detritus and crappie, which perpetuates the cycle. oth, in the past i've just let loose a bunch of blue-legs (algae mercenaries) to mow everything down and then transfer back out the 'extras' when the system is 'secure'.

 

if you're at a 'plague' proportion now, the amount of cleaners to remove that will end up starving when they actually finish. better to do the heavy work and let the crew just do the maintenance imo.

[tonkadawg]

guess I know what I am doing tonight when I get home from work

[Dave ESPI]

"lending a hand" is what the snails and stuff do, it still takes an active role as a reefer to keep a tank pristine, and even then, it takes Napalm at times.

remember that the "Poo" is fueling the algae, and eaten algae becomes ? ? ? ? ?

[tonkadawg]

too funny!

 

but seriously - good point