Is my LFS full of it or telling the truth?

[Chineseghoststory]

I am finally all but ready to bring my first nano tank to life as soon as I can clear off some space for it on my computer table! I have a 7 gallon bowfront that is begging to be used as soon as I can claim the real estate.

 

I have been consulting off and on with the LFS, as well as with the fine people of this board, about just how to do this. I finally have at least enough of an idea that I know what I'm doing that it's worth risking the life of a damsel and an invert or two over, though corals will come sometime later. I do get the suspicion, however, that the self-appointed guru/owner at the LFS has been sort of talking out of his asphalt about a few matters of keeping a nano-reef. For one, he is clearly a big tank guy and does not have a nano on the premisis, but here's what he's been telling me. You guys tell me where he's right and/or wrong. Please keep in mind that this, at least for a few months, will be a FISH-ONLY tank..

 

He says you have to manually add trace elements and minerals to a tank to keep the live rock, well, alive. I am under the impression that the tank gets all the trace elements it requires by way of regular water changes. Who's right? Do you have to do anything special to keep the live rock alive?

 

He says as long as the tank temp is at about 77 then I do not need a heater. I beg to differ that the temp should be held rock steady at about 82, give or take a degree, with the emphasis being on temp stability.

 

Keeping in mind this tank will have no corals in the beginning to help with filtration (but it will have LR and LS from the start), I plan on using a Whisper hang-on-the-back power filter intended for tanks of 15-20 gallons in size. I am also plannning on using the included charcoal-based media. Any problem with this? He said that the one I had for a 5-10 gallon tank wasn't enough filtration.

 

He said that I didn't need a power head in a tank that small since I'd be running such a huge filter that it would definitely provide some real water movement in there. I am inclined to agree with him on that one. I have noted a fair amount of current in my 5 gallon fresh water bowfront tank from the even-smaller Whisper filter that one uses.

 

He also said that to buy some water straight out of a tank from him at about $2 a gallon was a good deal since that would get things going right away and his water is RO purified to begin with. Sounds like a deal to me. I am also going to be adding live rock and sand at that same time, also bought from him. Or.......I could take a good four weeks or so dallying around after buying RO water from the supermarket at $1 a gallon, waiting for things to cycle properly......if at all. I mean, what do I know? You can't really see cycling after all.

 

As for lighting, keeping in mind that this tank is *not* at first going to support corals or other inverts aside from snails and maybe a shrimp, I plan on using the 14 inch GE flourescent tube it came with that has "freshwater and salt" imprinted on it. That is, unless someone wants to suggest another single 14 inch tube that is more suitable. If there is one then I'll use that until I get some PCs and retrofit them in.

 

This is about the last blast of info I should need from you guys before getting tyhis thing rolling. Thanks in advance for the help!!

 

Jeff

[Rocket_155]

He says you have to manually add trace elements and minerals to a tank to keep the live rock, well, alive. I am under the impression that the tank gets all the trace elements it requires by way of regular water changes. Who's right? Do you have to do anything special to keep the live rock alive?

ok No. 1

you shouldn't have to manually add any trace or base elements, the weekly water changes should be enough to keep the elements up around the right levels.

 

He says as long as the tank temp is at about 77 then I do not need a heater. I beg to differ that the temp should be held rock steady at about 82, give or take a degree, with the emphasis being on temp stability.

 

No.2

There are many different people's opinions about the tempertate that they tanks should be kept at. But most of the people keep thier tanks around the 80-83 mark. I think that the 77 mark is abit too low, but if the lights give off alot of heat and can raise the tank's temp to 82 then it would be ok.

 

Keeping in mind this tank will have no corals in the beginning to help with filtration (but it will have LR and LS from the start), I plan on using a Whisper hang-on-the-back power filter intended for tanks of 15-20 gallons in size. I am also plannning on using the included charcoal-based media. Any problem with this? He said that the one I had for a 5-10 gallon tank wasn't enough filtration.

 

No.3

The best known biological fitration that is known, is which is found in live rock and live sand. You could just use the LR and LS for filtration and remove the charcol from the whisper and only use it in case of emerginces i.e. if one of your corals spawn.

 

Also i think that you decide to put in a power head only if you have any deadspots(a place where there is no water movement).

 

 

hope this helps. but before you decide to get started wait and see what others think first.

[lil reef]

I think you need to find another LFS!!!

[jdiver]

I think your LFS guy, while not completely wrong with what he has told you, is off on a few things and is trying to make a buck on some other things.

 

Weekly water changes should be all you need for trace elements, although some people dose with various products (i.e.- Seachem's Reef Complete, Bionic, etc.). The $2 per gallon water from his tank sounds like him trying to make a buck to me. I buy RO/DI water from a Glacier unit at Acme for 40¢ per gallon. The biological filtration is going to come from the LR and LS, not from the water. While you can't actually "see" cycling, you can watch it occur through water testing (pH, nitrates, ammonia, nitrites) , so make sure you have a good test kit.

 

As far as the LR, is it cycled LR from established tanks, or is it "bulk" LR sitting in LR tanks? When you pick out the LR, in addition to keeping in mind size and shape, smell it. If it smells really funky, then it likely indicates a lot of die-off and I would avoid it (I learned that one the hard way). What I've found works well with getting LR from my LFS is buying most of it from their LR tanks, and then getting one or two pieces from their display tanks. This way I don't pay huge amounts for the LR, but the LR from the display tanks usually has tons of life because it has been very well established. With the LS, you shouldn't need to buy all of you LS from him. In fact, it would work just as well to buy a 10 lb bag of "dead" sand and then seed it with a big cup of LS from the LFS tank (a couple of different tanks if possible).

 

I have the temp of all my tanks at 78 degrees, which seems to do just fine and allows for a couple degree increase during the really hot summer days with no problems.

 

Adding a PH would give you better current, since it wouldn't all be coming from one direction. It would also give you more flexibility with current flow and direction, which can be especially important once you add corals, since different corals like different currents. In my 7 gallon bow I have an AquaClear Mini HOB and a Mini-Jet 404 PH. Both are adjustable and provide very good current flow.

 

With the lighting, you're going to need more than just the fluorescent bulb that comes with the tank. Even though you won't have corals right away, there will still be life on the LR (corals, coraline, etc.) that needs adequate lighting. The 32w SmartLite retro kit is a popular choice and only costs about $40 or so, and fits easily into the hood that comes with the tank.

 

Hope that helps, and good luck!

[Mnesarchus]

Wont need a heater?? How old is this guy? Without a heater you would have terrible flucuations in temperature. Oh yeah, and dont waste money on trace elements. I bought Iodine, Calcium, Strontium, and Molybdenum (?) and havent ever added any of them because the levels stay good with a weekly 15% water change. If your going to buy an additive, get kalkwasser, it's the only thing I've used so far.

 

Hope this helps

[jdiver]

Whoa! I completely missed that the guy said a heater wouldn't be needed! A heater is very necessay, even if you could somehow keep the room with the tank locked at 78 degrees. I would recommend a 75w heater for the tank. You could get awat with a 50w, but the extra 25w will help to ensure more temp stability.

[loganj]

Well, everything that needs to be said has been . I thought I would add, for those who do use NO fluorescents, that the GE Fresh and Salt bulbs are 9235k. I have one of those and a GE actinic on my 10 (until I can upgrade) and the rock and shrooms are doing well so far.

Logan J

[spoondigity]

You would tend to think he isn't out to make a buck since he is saying 'don't buy a heater'. I would guess he just has some odd advice based off of the experience he has (maybe because of the large tanks you mentioned).

 

A small powerhead blowing along the bottom back may be good just to be sure. Your flow from the HOB probably tends to be more toward the front of the tank. But you can use your own judgement watching the current.

 

You don't need his water and I would recommend against it.

 

You don't need the trace elements unless you are doing monthly water changes. If you do weekly you should be fine.

 

Definitely buy a 50w heater, 75 will do as well. If for no other reason, when your lights heat your tank, they may raise the temp too much and then you are going to use a fan to cool most likely. The fan can in turn, cool the tank too much and you have big swings. Fan+heater set just right will keep a rock solid temp. I think most people actually shoot for a constant temp somewhere between 78-82 degrees. The important point here is that you don't want 4 degree swings quickly (if at all), they can lead to ich and other diseases as your fish will be stressed.

 

Your live rock should be fine with the light you have (and you may get some great coralline colors with the lower light in some cases), but as mentioned earlier, you may sustain slightly more of the life on the rock with higher lighting. If nothing else, maybe you could get a self reflecting bulb that has a metal strip on the back which reflects more light back down into the tank. That may help until you eventually get more light.

 

P.S. I use the active carbon that comes with my millenium HOB. They say it keeps your water clearer (removes the yellow) and also helps if something pollutes the tank. I have replaced mine probably 4 times over the last 5 months and never had any problems with it. I just make sure to take it out periodically to clean it under fresh water so that it doesn't collect junk and become a nitrate factory. It is a good mechanical filter as well in that it collects debris.

[BCOrchidGuy]

If you bought the tank etc from him he should give you 5 gallons of water... hell he is going to do a water change anyway.

 

Heater heater heater... in a 1500 gallon tank the temp won't change alot day to night, in a 7 with LR and LS you may have 4.5 gallons of water, day to night your tank temp will change faster than you can say, hey is that ich on my fish?

 

Weekly water changes should give you most all of the good stuff you need, depending on the salt you use, obviously from all the other posts regarding this some salts seem to lack some of the essentials.

 

Go for the smallest power head you can find, and aim it along the back of the tank, it will keep the water moving in a circular motion around the tank and help to aleviate any dead spots.

[Dave ESPI]

Every replyhere is decent and makes good points.

Id say him selling you his USED water is just a way to make a buck on already depleeted salt water ions and elements. YES bacteria and SOME water will be usefull initialy, but after a month when your tank matures and makes plankton and stuff onits own, screw him. Get a GOOD salt and use Grocery store RO water . TEST THE WATER FOR NITRATES.. sometimes it can have it.

Other than that, Flick him the "bird" and say its from me.

Tell him I said READ more, and use less conjecture to sell more.

[ross76053]

Be sure to test yer RO water for phosphates, too. I can't find any RO water that's low enough in phosphates, so it's fueling my freakin' algae growth. Got my own R.O. system, and still - high phosphates.

 

I see a D.I. add-on in my future.

[LiQuiD]

The LFS owner is obviously old school. Only kept large tanks with skimmers because that was the ONLY way you could do it (also big full tanks cost more, hehehe). When you skim all the nutrients out ouf the water and do monthly water changes well guess what, you need to replenish it by adding stuff. You are doing a nano with hopefully weekly water changes so of course everyone is right you will not need to add anything (possible calcium suppliment down the road if you plan to keep hard coral and want lots of nice coraline growth). So don't buy any additives from him.

 

As far as buying his old water, well I believe that was covered too, don't even think about it, he will be joking with his friends after you leave "this guy comes in and buys my old water change water for $2 a gallon", that is pretty funny. And from which tanks, as many know, LFS's get in large shipments of fish and such with horrible water quality, you don't want this water in your tank. This is why when people buy a new fish for their tank from a LFS, they first drip acclimate, then disgaurd as much if not all of the LFS water it was in, sometimes with hardy fish even netting it and giving a freshwater dip, then placing it in a quarantine tank for a few weeks to watch it for any diseases then finally adding it to their main tank. In other words, people go through a lot to make sure LFS crap doesn't end up in their tank, don't go and buy it by the gallon, you really do not know the water parameters. Don't forget this is a hobby and part of the fun of the hobby is doing stuff like making your own water, testing it's gravity/salinity etc.. There is so little nitrifying bacteria floating around in the water that it would do nothing to as he says "get the things going right away", the rocks and the sand will take care of all of that.

 

The heater, well of course get a heater, that is just plain stupid, they are under 20 bucks, but if the $30+ dollar fish of yours dies due to ich from stress from temp fluctuations, your gonna go buy another $30+ fish and some cure etc.. LFS owner not looking to make money everyone says, I think he is smarter than you think. LFS's stay in business by peoples failures "welp, that fish died along with those corals, better go buy some more fish and corals I guess". GET A HEATER!

 

The filter, well he says not enough filtration, you don't even need a filter it is going to be used for water cirulation. Carbon is good for sucking smell out of the water, the problem is it will suck everything out of the water (trace elements, etc.) Only use it if you have to. As mentioned before, get a PH for the rear bottom of the reef, you do not want dead spots and this area almost always has dead spots.

 

Lighting, good for now to keep the rock alive and maybe some of the coraline but you will need to upgrade down the road which I am sure you are aware of.

[sjpresley]

With respect to trace element additions, some people do and some don't because their systems are different.

 

I dose because my tank is packed with corals and inverts that use calcium, iodine, strontium, and molybdenum much faster than it is replaced with my 10% weekly water changes.

 

If you don't plan on having corals to start, I wouldn't worry about it. I would do regular small water changes (rather than larger infrequent ones) to maintain iodine levels. Iodine does not stay in solution very long while exposed to light (remember the little amber iodine bottle your mom had to treat cuts? that amber glass blocked damaging light from deteriorating the iodine) and is absorbed by many things. It is required for any arthropods to properly shed their exoskeletons. Without the iodine they CANNOT molt and will die. Therefore it is worthwhile to make sure some is available. Be wary those because (of course) they can also die from excess iodine (which is typically stored in their exoskeleton and can poison them). If you want good coraline growth a little calcium addition wouldn't hurt.

 

The rest is mostly to help people with heavilty stocked tanks replentish elements without massive water changes that would be unnecessary otherwise.