Why use a skimmer on a nano?

[BKtomodachi]

I've done SPS without a skimmer... but you truly see the difference when you run one.

[oogie]

Originally posted by marc

I understand the logic behind having a skimmer on a nano with sps but what do you all think about a ricordia/zoanthid only nano?  I've read comments that state zos like a certain amount of dissovled organics. what'cha think?

In that case, i have done that w/o skimmer. It would help to have fuge though.

[dhoffroad]

Originally posted by onthefly

DH

 

Just wondering how people overskimming manage to keep amazing reefs?

 

"OVERSKIMMING" I thought there was no such thing... LOL

[FAC_WNY]

Because..if you overskim..you can also "overfeed" without too many worries..

 

Cheers,

Fred

[icenine]

Coming from the realm of freshwater, skimming was kind of a novelty idea for me at first... air bubbles don't do much for you in a cichlid tank. But after cleaning out my collection cup a few times I can't imagine running a reef tank without one.

....fyi... I run a bak pak type skimmer with a Rio 800. It took me a couple weeks of tinkering to get it "fine tuned" in terms of wet/dryness of the skimmate and for micro bubbles to go away.

[pdhenderson]

Originally posted by onthefly

Can you elaborate in this statement?  Other than Iodine/iodide (which skimming does not remove per se, but it oxidizes the Iodine/iodide into a form that is not bioavailable), and maybe phyto/zoo plankton....what does skimming remove?

 

Here:

 

 

Review of Protein Skimmers & Which Hang-On for Me

Bob

I am starting a 55 gal fish / invertebrate salt tank without a sump. I intend to set it up with a protein skimmer, circulating powerheads, live rock, and live sand. (No mechanical filter) Because of space restraints I must use a hang on type skimmer. This being said I want a very good skimmer. I have been looking at the AquaC Remora Pro, PM Hang on, the Berlin Hang on and others. My question is what do you consider to be the best hang on skimmer for my use (any brand name not just the ones I mentioned). Please don't tell me there all good, I know that, which is the best in your opinion? Cost is not an issue. Also what pump would you recommend with it, size and brand. (Also note that in the future I may upgrade to a 75 ga. tank and would like to continue using the equipment for that tank.) Remember I am in search of the ultimate not the good enough.

*AquaLink-older model CC air driven, effective but there are better

*BakPak-OK for smaller tanks (55 gallons and under) but for anything larger or for people looking to upgrade in the future, not the best choice

*Berlin (old style HO)-a nice enough unit, but for that kind of money it should come with a real needle valve and should not have a drip or have salt creep where the pump pipe meets the skimmer body

*Excalibur HV1-OK for smaller tanks (55 gallons and under) but for anything larger or for people looking to upgrade in the future, not the best choice

*Prizm-a cheap, effective piece of equipment for tanks 40 gallons or under

*Seaclone-I do not recommend for any situation/tank

*Skilter-I do not recommend for any situation/tank

*Tunze-not exactly a HO, but does hang inside the tank. I love mine, but I can hide it in the sump.

*AquaC-I have never used, but I do intend to purchase one soon because of all the rave reviews I have read from Bob and other on the WWM Forum>

Thanks For your Time, Dennis Vigliotte

 

protein skimmers

After reading through all your previous Q&As on protein skimmers, I noticed that you really don't ever suggest the use of the big downdraft units such as the ETS 750. What seems to come up the most is the use of the Turboflotor 1000 and the Aqua C models which you suggest for tanks ranging from 55 gal to 125 gal. I personally have a 180 gal FOWLR with a Turboflotor 1000 and 20 gal sump with Caulerpa algae and 24 hr lighting.

1. Now do you not mention these downdraft units because of there price or because they are not as efficient as the others? Basically are they worth the money along with the big pumps that have to power them?

2. Would a heavily loaded 180 gal FOWLR tank benefit more from having a larger protein skimmer hooked up because the amount of water that would pass through it an hour?

A lot of people are telling me that I need to add another Turboflotor 1000 to my system or upgrade to a bigger P.S such as the ETS 750. My water quality is good right now, but phosphates stay around 3.0 ppm and nitrates at 20ppm. Would my fish and I gain anything by adding a ETS 750 or just a bigger electric bill.

 

Skimmers, when is enough - enough!

Hello again, you have answered my questions before and I thank you. Also for the great site. It is habit forming. Just one quick question, is it possible to have a skimmer that is too big or efficient for a tank?

If it is what are the drawbacks?

OK, that was two questions...

 

Skimmers?

Hello Bob,

Can you explain how exactly a skimmer works and can you run them without using a sump? I have seen in tank, hang-on, under-stand, and in sump skimmers, which setup works the best and why? How about overflow or power outages? Can you just run lines from the skimmer into the tank and back? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Ben

<www.wetwebmedia.com and let me know if I can offer further/better descriptions/explanations.

And no, you don't need a sump. There are hang-on, in-tank models.

The in-sump models are superior in function and appearance... they don't add near as much fine bubbles back into the main tank... and are more flexible in their application.

You can run lines... the in-sump models are better though... with the lines coming in from an overflow box to the sump... and some pumping mechanism to return it... independent of the skimmer. Bob Fenner>>

 

 

If you want to argue it, go to wetwebmedia and do it with bob fenner, but Ill trust him.....................

[redneckvampire]

I've ran my 10 both with and without a skimmer. This is my theory on the whole thing.

 

It doesn't matter one way or the other.

 

You still have to change water no matter what. All the different methods of filtering your water amount to one thing. What you have to add to keep a balance in your tank. That being food or nutrients of some sort & trace elements of some sort. It doesn't matter that you can have a beautiful tank with or without a skimmer. It matters that you come up with a maintenance schedule that works with the equipment you have.

[kriot]

WOW! this is probably the most civilized skim/no skim debate i've ever seen.

 

I have a 12 and i run a skimmer about 85 percent of the time. I usually turn it off when i feed coral or dose.

 

I honestly think the deciding reason is TIME. How much time can you dedicate to maintenance?

 

Personally, i'm busy as hell with work and surfing, so I dont want to spend a whole lot of time working on the tank (dont get me wrong i do spend time on maintenance, its just that i feel i have better things to do) So running a skimmer helps me quite a bit, i dont have to change water as often and i can overfeed, or have snails tip over and die without worrying too much about the tank. If you got the time and enjoy doing the maintenance than its not necessary. but for me, 5 minutes means i can catch an extra wave.LOL!

 

KC

[onthefly]

Thanks for the longest non-answer ever....

 

The reason why I baited you into a debate is because 80% of those who have an opinion about skimmers, have no clue as to how they work...outside of "the bubbles pull out some nasty gunk". Bob fenner didn't say it in this forum, you did....that's why I asked.

 

From the epic you posted, here's the 2 important parts to this discussion:

If it is what are the drawbacks?

 

Well, since we still don't know what "good" things skimming removes (my initial question still stands), let's just focus on BF's opinion that regardless, skimming the bad is FAR more important the potental loss of the good. As for the second point BF makes, I won't even begin to question the validity of his statement that "foam fractionators capitalize on properties of polar molecules attraction to air/bubble interfaces in water", because that is just false!!! Although frequently confused, there is a fundamental difference between polarity and hydrophobicity.

[cadesun]

hahaha! the fraction of reefers who actually understand how skimmers actually work is astronomically small. i have given up on trying to explain how they work and why they are so good for people's tanks. the funny thing is, people bash them all the time and on one can give me a straight answer as to why they are so bad (other than microbubbles). everything i've heard is anecdotal and usually stated by people who have no clue what they are talking about.

 

i agree with you on this one onthefly.

[ktownhero]

Originally posted by cadesun

hahaha!  the fraction of reefers who actually understand how skimmers actually work is astronomically small.  i have given up on trying to explain how they work and why they are so good for people's tanks. the funny thing is, people bash them all the time and on one can give me a straight answer as to why they are so bad (other than microbubbles).  everything i've heard is anecdotal and usually stated by people who have no clue what they are talking about.

 

i agree with you on this one onthefly.

 

The issue that I presented was not whether a skimmer is good or bad for your aquarium, but whether it is, or is not, a necessary expense.

 

Clearly it is not a necessary expense, but the next logical step is: does a nano really benefit from one? Personally, I am not really convinced either way. Of course, I am a bit biased because I kept a very successful 10g without a skimmer.

 

I should, however, qualify the type of reefer that I am. I am very patient, I am somewhat conservative with how I stock my tank, and, right now, I have no interest in keeping any of the more complex inverts/corals.

 

To give an example: my upcoming 20L will likely be stocked with a considerable amount of LR and LS, and won't be likely to house more than 3 small fish and a handful of soft corals.

[cadesun]

i should have clarified. a skimmer is not necessary for some reefers. however, for the vast majority (myself included) they are very beneficial to the point of near-necessity. very few people have the patience or self-control that ktownhero has with his tank.

[ktownhero]

Originally posted by cadesun

i should have clarified.  a skimmer is not necessary for some reefers.  however, for the vast majority (myself included) they are very beneficial to the point of near-necessity.  very few people have the patience or self-control that ktownhero has with his tank.

 

So you would say that in my case: consistently performing water changes, and having a lightly stocked tank, that a skimmer is not going to make much of a difference, if any difference at all?

[cadesun]

it would still make a difference, but it would not be a necessity in your case. the skimmer would still pull more waste out of your water than water changes and macro alone would, thus creating better water quality. however, in your tank it might not be a large enough of a difference to really matter if you're not interested in keeping any organims which require absoluetly pristine water quality.

[ktownhero]

Originally posted by cadesun

it would still make a difference, but it would not be a necessity in your case.  the skimmer would still pull more waste out of your water than water changes and macro alone would, thus creating better water quality.  however, in your tank it might not be a large enough of a difference to really matter if you're not interested in keeping any organims which require absoluetly pristine water quality.

 

Thanks for your input. I think I am going to start w/o a skimmer and just see where things go from there. I'm sure it won't be long until I am wanting bigger and better things.

[cadesun]

i started without a skimmer, and like you said, it went ok for a while until i started wanting bigger and better things. now i wouldn't want a tank without one.

[onthefly]

Skimmers necessary? Absolutely not! I don't run one on my SPS nano, but again, I have no fish either and can't stand the microbubbles that inevitably get back into my small tank.....Even though my water tests perfect "zeros" across the board for all the bad guys, I wonder about the things we can't test for (metabolites, intermediates, toxins, etc.) and how my tank would look if I ran a skimmer. Would I get more color? Better growth? I think Fred said it best, despite our attempts to call our tanks pristine...they really are cesspools We simply lack the volume to dilute all the metabolites, toxins, slim, and general gunk that our tanks produce.

 

My up and coming 20L will have a BIG skimmer!

 

Again, my input into this debate is simple....I want to know what "essential nutrients" skimmers "can and will" remove? I understand that if someone is "wet skimming" that larger particulates can be removed (i.e. phytoplankton and zooplankton) and that the highly oxygenated environment of a skimmer can oxidize sensitive molecules like iodine/iodide. However, the term "essential" in biology means necessary for life....without them, things die. Given the trend to run skimmers that are 4-5x overrated and wet skimming, the only draw back I can see is keeping your SG stable.

[sprite]

im running a euro reef skimmmer rated for a 110 gallon tank on my custom 17L tank with 10 gallon sump ran half full. my tank is all sps and a clam and no fish...it still pulls ungodly amount of skimmate a day out of it.of course im wet skimming and have bb. necessary? no! seeing what comes out of it,i wouldnt run with out it

[cadesun]

exactlty.

[yoshiod9]

otf- lol. i read that post by henderson and thought that same thing the first day this thread was made...BUT i didn't want to start another huge skim/no skim debate. lol. i just remember the last time we had this and RB put about 10 people in their place in not so nice terms. lol.

[ktownhero]

Here is what is stated in the Nano Filtration article found in the information section:

 

With this natural method, no protein skimmers or dosing is used. Studies of skimmers have shown that they remove various trace elements, along with pods and plankton. When people run protein skimmers, they dose trace elements to replenish them after their corals and skimmers use them. Because the skimmer removes most of the elements, such as iodine, it is dosed back in causing almost an endless cycle. The main problem this holds in nano reefing is that many of the trace elements cannot be easily tested for, so no one ever knows where their level is. This can lead to overdosing which will crash a nano reef in a matter of hours. The skimmer also begins to starve your corals by removing their food source. It's simply too risky.

 

Protein skimmers are beneficial however, because they remove excess nutrients from the water, but this advantage is out weighed by the disadvantages. To remove the excess nutrients from this system you do a partial water change. The water change also doubles to replenish your trace elements, which are in your synthetic sea salt. Nitrates are removed, dissolved organic compounds are removed, and your trace elements are replaced. Your nitrates will always be at or near zero, and the elements will stay at a constant level.

 

Prior to this section, the article also recommends NOT using a skimmer as part of your "natural filtration method."

[Travis]

If you notice, MOST, not all, of the best looking and most colorful nano reefs do run some type of skimmer.

 

Just take that into consideration.

 

I am running an AquaC Remora on my 29 Show.

[onthefly]

ktown - Well, I completely disagree with blanket statements!!! The problem is this hobby (and the ancedotal information that starts trends worst than teenagers at a beverly hills highschool) is we learn new things even day and what worked yesterday, is often times trashed today (UGF, plenums, DSB, skimmers, etc). Furthermore, in that same article CM states: "Sand beds from 1/4" to 4" won't produce much of a difference in this system"...Which is a blanket statement that can be debated and proven false. The info sections are vital for newcomers to get a feel of the hobby, but I'm quite sure you are not citing it as "gospel"?

 

So what if a skimmer removes a few pods, phyto, or zooplankton? The levels in our tanks are far from providing a source of nutrients. It's analogous to you starving in your living room and finding a McNugget in the couch cushion....a pleasant surprise, but not a means of constant nutrients. The only evidence for skimmers removing trace elements is (as I stated above) iodine and/or the potential dilution by wetskimming. For those who wetskim, most add back some NSW in their top off to compensate so that is a moot point....As for Iodine, it's efficacy and necessity in our tanks is a debate all by itself.

 

Once again, like Travis said.....look around.....skimmers are everywhere.

[ktownhero]

Originally posted by onthefly

The info sections are vital for newcomers to get a feel of the hobby, but I'm quite sure you are not citing it as "gospel"?  

 

Of course not, I cited it because it is relevant to the discussion. I do think it means a lot that articles for beginners, on such a popular site, are stating that not having a skimmer is not only ok, but preferable, for these smaller aquariums.

 

Obviously you have to take the context of the entire article into consideration. That is, this advice is given in light of the fact that a nano will be "lightly stocked" compared to a full sized reef, and ~20% water changes are simple to do.

[onthefly]

Agreed....

 

But the thing that I feel a skimmer can do, that no w/c can (unless you do the Calfo 98% w/c)....If softies and acros both secrete slim and potential toxins in response to a number of stimuli (which we may or may not see)...then a 20% weekly might be plenty for the PO4 and NO3, but what about those untested "bad guys". How many threads have you read where people say: "everything is fine, but my coral is turning to goo!" there is a lot going on that we can't see, detect, or test for......IMO, a skimmer can only help, not hurt!

 

Here's an idea....run a skimmer and do a 20% weekly w/c