Help!!!! carnation coral

[texaschic]

Does anyone have experiance with carnation coral? I orderd a colt coral from online dealer...when it arrives it is a carnation. I have heard that the carnations are very difficult to keep. Any information on care would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks a bunch!!!

 

Natalie

[EPICTANKHERE]

i had one...stayed alive but it would only bloom at night. durring the day it looked like a wad of bubblegum. i think it needs to be in the shade which i couldn't accomidate in my 12g. Ended up trading it. You have to feed it alot and when it blooms it is rad, just watch those nitrates!

[Steve973]

I have never had a carnation coral, but I was reading about them yesterday. Apparently they feed on phytoplankton, but do research and verify this before taking my word on it. DT's phytoplankton is superior to anything that you'll buy "off the shelf". Or check out www.liquidlifeusa.com and see if you can find someone nearby who will carry it, or order some online. To be on the safe side, and to benefit your entire aquarium, you might try dosing some good quality phytoplankton and some zooplankton, but stay away from the "room temperature" stuff that brands like Kent make.

[p.o.t.u.s]

FYI, carnation coral (dendronephtya sp.)

 

I should tell you however that according to many, carnation corals are really hard to keep happy. They live high water flow, >2 inches/sec, but seem to favor a consistent flow rather than an alternating or random current. This is kinda counter to what most of us have in our tanks.

 

Moreover, as you already know, they are not photosynthetic. Carnation corals feed off of zooplankton AND phytoplankton (not just phyto) and need an almost constant flow of critters to keep well fed. Such a nutrient rich environment can throw our nitrate levels into whack...which makes keeping carnation corals in a nano a tough balancing act.

 

Additionally, while carnation corals are non-photosynthetic, they are sometimes able to tolerate high light. In the wild, they are sometimes found in places where they are fully exposed to sunlight. I'd err on the side of caution and not use MH, but I'm sure they'd tolerate PC light just fine with proper acclimation.

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

[tinyreef]

Originally posted by p.o.t.u.s

FYI, carnation coral (dendronephtya sp.)  

 

They live high water flow, >2 inches/sec, but seem to favor a consistent flow rather than an alternating or random current. This is kinda counter to what most of us have in our tanks.

hey pot, i'd tend to agree that that is what most of the literature and people's recommendations have historically been (myself included) but most of the real reef pics i've seen (i'm not a diver) seem to show the dendros and cousins in darkwater but low-flow areas, at least that's what it looks like from the pics. e.g. shipwrecks, caves, under ledges, and in nooks and crannies. the dendros et al. always seem to hug protected areas/zones where there's little to no light.

 

some real divers can chime in here but it seems to me that they don't seem to congregate at high-flow areas. non-lit consistent-flow areas like you mentioned, seems right but i'm not sure on the high-flow.

 

and i'll reiterate that i, myself, have made the same comments you have above. i'm just beginning to re-think that based upon what i see in pictures and actual dendro experience.

 

i also think the correct food packet, as you touched upon, is also critical. dr. matthews, contributor of fama, was doing an experiment (or flight of fancy) on appetite triggers for dendros and similars. i never heard if he had a followup from his initial proposal tho (spring of last year?). but his article and statements on dendro feeding/foods was very interesting, e.g. fecal matter, chemical triggers, etc.

 

just wanted to stir the thought-pot a little.

[B16A2NR]

Send it back. The title of this thread makes me laugh.

[p.o.t.u.s]

tiny- check this out...from advanced aquarist about dendros and water flow.

 

"The polyps themselves can actually modulate the flow around them, to enhance prey capture. In a study of the effects of flow on particle capture in the asymbiotic temperate octocoral Alcyonium siderium, Patterson (1991) found that at low flows (2.7 cm/s) tentacles on the upstream side of the polyps capture the most prey. At intermediate flows (12.2 cm/s) downstream tentacles within a polyp capture the most prey. In high flow (19.8 cm/s) polyps are bent downstream, eddies form over the polyp surfaces and all tentacles capture prey effectively. Prey is trapped most effectively at the tips of the tentacles relative to locations near the mouth (Patterson, 1991). No one current flow is the best for all species. For example, Dai and Lin (1993) found three Taiwanese asymbiotic gorgonians Subergorgia suberosa, Acanthogorgia vegae and Melithaea ochracea to feed over a wide range of flow rates. The ability to keep polyps open was also related to flow rates and the size of their polyps. Subergorgia suberosa had the largest polyps, which were deformed by the lowest currents speeds (>10 cm/s), severely hindering prey capture. In contrast, Melithaea ochracea, which had the shortest and the least easily deformed polyps at high flow rates, could feed at the highest flow rates (40 cm/s). Acanthogorgia vegae had an intermediate polyp size and fed in flows of 0-24 cm/s. Although all three fed most effectively at flows of 8 cm/s, S. suberosa had the narrowest feeding range (5-10 cm/s) while M. ochracea had the widest range (4-40 cm/s) (Dai and Lin, 1993). This varying ability to feed in various current flows is a major factor in determining distribution on reefs. Melithaea ochracea is the most widely spread gorgonian on southern Taiwanese reefs, occurring on the upper part of reef fronts where currents are strong. Subergorgia suberosa, which feeds in a narrow range of flow velocities, has a restricted distribution pattern, being found on lower reef slopes or on sheltered boulders where currents are weaker. Acanthogorgia vegae, which can feed in relatively strong currents, is most commonly found on the semi-exposed reef fronts or the lateral side of boulders (Dai and Lin, 1993)."

[p.o.t.u.s]

About the food...

 

I really want to try a dendro tank but am still in the extreme planning phase. Here are some of my thoughts thus far:

 

I was thinking about feeding the following:

 

1. live phyto

2. live rotifers

3. marine snow

4. Cyclopeeze

5. Frozen Brine Shrimp (juices yum)

 

Filtration seems to be the key, skimming is going to be really important. The live food should help reduce the waste, but since dendros seem to either hunt pretty passively, or absorb nutrients a high food/area ratio seems needed for them to live.

 

I was thinking about trying to target feed a dendo. Maybe along the lines of how some people feed sun polyps with a half soda bottle. This way some of the more nasty (i.e., dead) food wouldn't really spread as much as it could. I also thought about only running the carbon and skimmer when the polyps are closed...hopefully there will be some sort of regular cycle for extension.

 

I haven't figured out the circulation but I know a HUGE sump with macro is going be a key part for nitrate reduction.

[texaschic]

Thanks for all the help on the feeding and lighting. I have heard they are very very difficult and most people end up losing them.

 

Sending it back is not an option because it was bought offline, they are supposed to send me the correct item, but it would probably not make it through another shipment so they do not want it back. I have put it into my 55gal instead of my nano to try to accomidate its lighting needs better, an hopefully feeding it will not throw my tank out of wack to bad. Its at my house to stay so I might as well try to figure out how to keep it alive( and its beautiful also).

 

not sure why my thread title makes you laugh?I needed help....with a carnation coral.

 

Thanks again for everyones help...it is very appreciated.

 

Natalie

[p.o.t.u.s]

Natalie- good luck and keep us updated on how it goes.

 

Tiny- let's keep the thread going...this is interesting.

[DIYDude]

The people to blame are the morons selling carnation corals. They should be kicked in the head. The reefing world isnt ready for a coral like dendro, its just too picky.

[p.o.t.u.s]

true, though the same was said about SPS not too long ago...

[tinyreef]

Originally posted by p.o.t.u.s

No one current flow is the best for all species.

Originally posted by p.o.t.u.s

This varying ability to feed in various current flows is a major factor in determining distribution on reefs.

i think these are the key points.

 

adding to the difficulties are that much of the "high" "low" definitions are relative too. e.g. 12"/sec. may seem fast but that converts to only about 0.67/mph, a snail's pace to you and me (and maybe some acros) but defined as a very high flow rate in that article you quoted.

 

again, i think flow is only part of the problem. the correct food is the main issue imo. size, shape, type, quantity, makeup, etc.

 

i'd tend to think cyclopeeze with its natural food attractants may give you a better chance to trigger feeding. (real marine snow would be the other imo) i believe (from memory here) dr. matthews noted variable times for expansion/feeding/activity, which i think he thought pointed to chemical triggers versus an activity cycle dependent on photoperiods or other, e.g. many corals feed predominately at night on the available night-plankton, opening up whether the plankton is present or not due to the photoperiod.

 

so i think his theory is that the dendros (generally referring to all those types) are actually more active/reactive in seeking prey(?). rather than just gaping open and hoping something falls into their gullet when the sun goes down. i liken it to the hair-triggers of a venus flytrap, the dendros may need that chemical trigger to induce them to open and feed.

 

just to get the dendros to open consistently is the first (and most imporant?) step because it'll probably solve the feed time and correct food questions.

 

next, the flow rates need to be optimal (for each respective species) to allow the dendros to capture their 'correct food'. then it'll just be figuring out what flow rate is optimal for whatever species you have.

 

the sun polyp technique is good. avoiding nuisance algae (or typical photosynthetic systems issues) and singular-type flow (versus the more commonly recommended random/chaotic) may also be options.

[davinaster]

Do you have any idea how mind-numbingly boring the research quoted in that article was to do? At around the same time as the Patterson research (which I vaguely remember), I was doing similar research on the effects of water flow on barnacle feeding patterns. Frame-by-frame video analysis of barnacles eating is why I graduated from college a semester early and never did anything with my marine biology degree (until now...)

[p.o.t.u.s]

Originally posted by tinyreef

i never heard if he had a followup from his initial proposal tho (spring of last year?).  but his article and statements on dendro feeding/foods was very interesting, e.g. fecal matter, chemical triggers, etc.

 

I was thinking that the marine snow might be able to replicate some of the dead matter/detritus that might be a cue for feeding...but i agree about the cyclopeeze. Who knows though!

 

The same AA article said the best polyp extention came when he did two things: 1. Stir the DSB/Scrape alge off the tank 2. Dump squid juice into the tank

 

This would pollute the water like nobody's business so if this did work in bringing about a feeding response, the bigger problem would be making sure the dendro doesn't die from all the nitrates this is gonna produce.

[tinyreef]

i wonder what the nutrient content is for those dendro areas? i've always gotten the impression that those often-cited 'zero readings' on reefs were taken in reef-crest or reef-flat zones (i.e. where the 'popular corals' reside), where there's a considerable amount of turnover back out to sea or very active feeding and photosynthesizing (waste processing) takes place.

 

the dendro areas i mentioned above seem to be rich in real marine snow (again, seen only from the pretty pictures) and can then elicit the reactions you said. hence, the dendros seem to congregate there, right? (seems logical) X)

 

davin,

that must have been loads of fun. frame-by-frame watching a barnacle feed. probably only marginally better than watching "Gigli" or "Ishtar".

 

maybe that new mooring-anchored submersible-camera technique can be applied to this experiment with your barnacle video method. then we can really find out what and how often these dendros feed.

 

anyone with an extra $500K lying around?

[jdav]

I've had one for about 4 months now.

 

it has grown 2 inches since i got it.

 

I feed it kent microvert and phyto plex.

 

it is happy.

[EPICTANKHERE]

maybe off topic, but my red finger gorg's polyps havn't bloomed in weeks. i feel that it is getting good flow (although i dont know how to test for that). does good flow mean putting the powerhead pionting right at the coral from close range? My powerhead is on the otherside of the tank 12 gallon, but i can tell it wraps around the glass and hits the gorg. Note that i feed (or try to at least) marine snow, or bio-plankton (which is expensive and looks very tasty-for corals:-) at least every other day. maybe one polyp will pop out once and a while but i would like it to get full bloom. Very interesting thread. keep it up!

[reefsrule]

Originally posted by jdav

I've had one for about 4 months now.

 

it has grown 2 inches since i got it.

 

I feed it kent microvert and phyto plex.

 

it is happy.

 

are you sure it isn't a photosynthetic coral? some species tend to take on the apperaence of caranations, and they are much easier to care for.

[Steve973]

Foods that you buy off the shelf are terrible. If you're buying phytoplankton and/or zooplankton at room temperature, it's not good stuff.

[texaschic]

Okay, so its been in the tank for seven days now. I have hung it in a cave in my husband's 55 gal tank. It seem to stay extended most of the time when the lights are out and even more extended ( or as we like to say..inflated) during feeding time. ( we are target feeding to try to keep down on bio load) It does retract a little when the lights are on, but this is the darkest place in the tank. I know 7 days is not long, but at least it has not shrank up an wilted away

 

Thanks for this great thread... it is very very informative..even for me.

 

Natalie

[rabbi2153]

cyclopeeze is too large I believe for carnations. I think they require smaller foods such as DT's or other filter feeder food.

 

Check out this thread on rc.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=524097

[Mike Maddox]

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...&threadid=49151

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=512753

 

Also search Eric Borneman's forum on RC.

 

The jist of it is:

Dendros and Scleros are stupidly difficult to keep alive, and only the waikiki aquarium has had any success (if you can call a 50% mortality rate "success" and this is in a specially designed cylindrical surge tank fed with unfiltered natural salt water!). From celllipid counts it has been found that they derive only 60% of their required proteinsnitrogen from phytoplankton, and no one knows where the other 40% comes from.

 

I'm going to attempt them someday, in a species aquarium, with a 40 gallon breeder refugium with an 8" upside down sand bed, no fish at all, with alternating surges on a timer set with the tides (every 8 hours) with a huge population of rotifers, nematodes, and copious amounts of overfeeding (this will happen when I'm curator of a public aquarium, when I graduate in about 900 years).

 

Simply put? It probably won't live - will die of attrition over the next few weeksmonths. Too bad they sent you the wrong coral . It's a good thing you're attempting to learn more about them, however. Carefully document what foods you feed and your water qualitymovement and if it's still alive in a year I will be ecstatic

 

Good luck!

[genuck]

go to http://www.garf.org and read their predatory coral articles. very interesting.