De-mystifying the Mandarinfish

[Tanked]

I have no urgency to employ any of the proceeding concepts anytime soon, so there is no need to gas up your flamethrowers, but I do believe we are approaching the day when it will be possible to house a Mandarinfish in a nano. I started thinking that it might be possible to keep one of these animals in a small tank so long as the tank is devoted specifically to it's needs.

 

In regards to lighting, contrary to the beliefs we have been ingrained with in reefkeeping, more is not necessarily better in this case. Mandarins are dim light or even nocturnal creatures and feed during these conditions. A rather startling revelation was made when it was realized that these fish might not even recognize their prefered prey items under the typical mid day full on lighting.

 

Lesser lighting throughout the day would be key as well as providing ample hiding spaces. I figured if a tank was designed with a square (surface area more important than the height) footprint, half of which was set up as a refugium to promote pod growth would be essential. Supplemental target feeding of brine shrimp and/or blood worms etc. in the evenings would be a boon if one is to be successful. And lastly, during that evening feeding time with the lights dimmed or even off, incorporating some form of slow, static water circulation along the sand bed may help these supplemental feedings by mimicking the movements of the Mandarin's natural prey.

 

To increase the chances of success, one would truly have to be dedicated to this little fish's need and would have to sacrifice other options we have always assumed as a given...e.g., light loving corals, other free swimming fish that would compete for food, and the like. Maybe it will always be that Mandarins will only thrive in established 100 gallon tanks, but I don't believe this will always be so.

[JustPhish]

I don't really think lighting matters much for the long term success of keeping a mandarin. I have to say that's the first time I've ever even heard of that.

 

I also don't know what you mean when you say a nano, because in the grand scheme of things my 180 gallon tank is a nano when compared to a mandarins natural habitat.

 

However, I just do not think it is possible to create an environment in such a small space like a <20 or even <40 etc that will be able to produce the amount of food needed fast enough. We are talking about a fish that spends all of it's waking hours searching, and eating food. The amount of food being consumed is considerable. Let's also not forget that the mandarin grows to a surprising size. I think many people rarely keep mandarins through their entire natural life cycle so few people have seen them fully grown. I can tell you that I have seen some mandarins shipped in which were so big that I would not have believed it if I didn't see it. With that increased size comes a appetite to match.

 

I keep one female in my 180 and though I would love to get a 6 line wrasse, I hesitate because I fear it will directly impact the health of the mandarin. The same fear is what keeps me from finding a male for her.

 

You're absolutely right, the day may come when a mandarin can be housed in any tank size as long as the environment is suitable, but I think the key that will allow that to happen is getting mandarins to accept a wide vareity of prepared foods reliably.

[BKtomodachi]

Nah, not 100. A regular 55 with normal amounts of live rock, and a small fuge can do it.

 

The problem we run into around here is that people want corals, mandairin, other fish, etc. in a ten gallon without a fuge. Oh yeah, and they have ten minutes per day max to care for the tank. THAT wont work.

[Withers]

Originally posted by BKtomodachi

Nah, not 100.  A regular 55 with normal amounts of live rock, and a small fuge can do it.

 

Don't take this as a personal attack on you, because I hear that statement thrown around a lot on these boards (and others), and I can say that I've never seen a mandarin being kept in a 55 gallon tank for any long period of time.

 

So if anyone can prove me wrong, that they have indeed kept a mandarin in a 55 gallon tank for 2+ years (I'm sure they live much much longer in the wild), then I will gladly retract my statement.

[Tigahboy]

I would have to agree...I keep hearing statements like that, but I don't ever see concrete proof of it being done long-term.

[Jade5051]

I am pretty new to the hobby but have done ample amount of research on salt water tanks. I am bound and determined to crush this idea that a Mandarin cannot be kept in anything less than a 100 gallon. I plan on putting one in a 20 High with a 20 Long as a refugium. I'll put 35 lbs of rock in both tanks along with a 1.5 inch to 2 inch sand bed. I'll take smaller rocks and transport them back and forth between tanks everyweek in order to assure that pods are in the main tank. Perhaps, you guys could give me some suggestions on what I could do to give the mandarin the best chance. I especially need tips on how to breed alot of pods fast.

[Tigahboy]

This has been attempted many times. success stories are very rare.

 

Here are some threads about what you are asking:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...t=mandarin+goby

 

And there's many many more.

[Withers]

Yeah, this is far from a new fad, people have been trying this for a very long time, with little to no success. Even if the mandarin does start to take prepared foods, he may still starve simply because you can't feed him enough. Also, the foods you feed him probably will not have the proper nutritional value that he is used to, and he may even vomit the food back up later on.

 

If you are really serious about keeping this fish, then just set up a larger tank for him, or wait until you have the funds to do so. I would love to keep a mandarin in my tank, but I realize that it just isn't possible, my tank can't even support my copperband butterfly by itself, and i've got a 55 gallon with about 70 lbs of rock in the tank, and about another 30lbs of rock in my sump.

 

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to swallow the fact that some fish just can't be kept in a nano. You have to listen to the advice of the experts, who research this for a living, and not to people on some forum frequented by 15 year old kids. We are dealing with some of the most beautiful creatures on earth, we should be trying to give them the best environment possible. They should live in a mansion, not in a closet.

[FAC_WNY]

Hmmm...low light animal maybe...but not nocturnal...these fish "sleep" buried in the sand. Anyone who has watched them for more than a day knows this.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[JustPhish]

Originally posted by Jade5051

Perhaps, you guys could give me some suggestions on what I could do to give the mandarin the best chance.  

 

Not for nothing, but my suggestion for the mandarins best chance would be not to do it.

 

I think some people might be a little confused in the tank size a mandarin can be kept in. It's usually not a size, since size of the tank means nothing. The tank could be 1000 gallons and have no place for breeding of food so the mandarin still wouldn't survive. It's really a tank big enough to house the live rock needed to ensure food is being produced faster than it can be eaten.

 

I think everyones time spent trying to get a mandarin thriving in a ten gallon would be better spent on trying to find a prepared food that when offered to the mandarin triggers a response to eat it and keep it down.

 

The debate isn't whether or not the mandarin can live in a ten. It probably can if that ten was hooked up to a much larger tank which constantly brought live food to it. It's getting the mandarin to take prepared foods reliably which is the problem.

[BKtomodachi]

Well, my situation might not be the best, but I kept one in a 55 from four years ago until last year in a 55. The reason it cant really count is that I was using a 50 gallon rubbermaid watering trough as a fuge and the mandarain ate brine shrimp just fine.

 

But, I do know of one around here thats remained at a constant wieght in a 55 without fuge for 8 months. Not great, but it looks fine.

[DitchPlains]

I have seen q few threads on reefcentral regarding mandarins that they will consume an entire copepod population in a tank under or around 55g in less then a 3 month period. I remember this interesting tidbit though. When I first got into the hobby of reefing I remember being thrilled after getting my live rock that all these cool shrimp like creatures were scurrying all over my live rock as soon as the lights wnet out. I had much less day time back then as my rock was cycling, but I had plenty of algae growing and snails eating it up., but as soon as my tank mature I noticed with the addition of my clowns who occasionally hunted them when they got hungry and that less alage provided less food, the copepod pop dwinlded down. I guess the thinking in this thread is that lesser water quality less light, and more algae will enhance the copepods...but I doubt even in a 30g could oyu kep a Mandarinhappy. The only option for a small nano like a 1015g is to keep buy prepckaged live shipments of copepods to supply your tank with. I think coralsandbar has those bags of copepods for 5 bucks, but at 25-30 bucks in chipping it will be an expensive undertaking....

[DitchPlains]

lol 10 to 15 g nano no 1015g nanos lol

[Kogut]

Just wanted to say once again that I kept a mandarin in a 29 gallon last year for over a year. He's still alive to this day, but not w/ me . He ate blood worms w/out hesitation. I bought him from liveaquaria.com and I even emailed them and asked what they fed. They said frozen blodworms. So I headed over to petco, and ta' da! I know it isn't smart to keep them in a small tank, but I'm with whoever thinks it can be done if you're trying to keep the little guy. Could even be done in the same way that people set up tanks for seahorses. A small, shallow and wide tank w/ a mandarin actually sounds like a really fun idea. Would make a great thing to watch. They really are amazing fish. Makes me miss mine a lot...

[Jade5051]

The only option for a small nano like a 1015g is to keep buy prepckaged live shipments of copepods to supply your tank with. I think coralsandbar has those bags of copepods for 5 bucks, but at 25-30 bucks in chipping it will be an expensive undertaking....

 

Just how many pods can a mandarin go through in a given time? 100 a week?

[mik]

Just how many pods can a mandarin go through in a given time? 100 a week

 

more like a 100+ a day!!! I am a stong believer that mandarins can be kept in smaller tanks but you must have a massive pod culture station so its not worth most peoples while (leave it to advanced aquarist 10:1 mandains die in captivity after like a month of being harvested).

 

p.s. many mandarins who at one point eat things other than pods like frozen bs often stop eating dead foods suddenly and revert back to only taking pods and die.

 

i dont mean to bash but keeping a mandarin in a small tank is not for a noob!!!

[MperRluvR]

i have had a 120 gallon tank up for about 6 months now. the sand in it was from my previos tank and is about 1 year old. theres about 90 pound in there. to that i am adding a 55 gallon sump to replace my current 30 and a 150 rubbermaid refug. I then plan to but the ampipod breeding kit from ispf.com i will breed these guys in my refug. and in about 3 months harvest them daily for the mandarin that will be going in my nano cube when i'm ready. I'm sure this has been done before. any experiences? ipsf.com states that a great breeding ground for pods is the macro algae ulva, which i plan to have a lot of. I cant posiblly see how there wouldnt be enough food for him, the pods would still be growing in the other tank of a total 325 gallon volume. Does anyone know if a certain type of sand works best for breeding pods? I wanted to do a 4-5" DSB of that cheap homedepot stuff, which is pretty fine sand.

[mik]

i have had a 120 gallon tank up for about 6 months now. the sand in it was from my previos tank and is about 1 year old. theres about 90 pound in there. to that i am adding a 55 gallon sump to replace my current 30 and a 150 rubbermaid refug. I then plan to but the ampipod breeding kit from ispf.com i will breed these guys in my refug. and in about 3 months harvest them daily for the mandarin that will be going in my nano cube when i'm ready. I'm sure this has been done before. any experiences? ipsf.com states that a great breeding ground for pods is the macro algae ulva, which i plan to have a lot of. I cant posiblly see how there wouldnt be enough food for him, the pods would still be growing in the other tank of a total 325 gallon volume. Does anyone know if a certain type of sand works best for breeding pods? I wanted to do a 4-5" DSB of that cheap homedepot stuff, which is pretty fine sand.

 

as long as you harvest daily that should work well for you.

[mccorkell]

I had one in a 55 that was well astablished with over 70 pounds of live rock and my mandarin did not last more than 10 months. With the abismal survival rate of these fishes in our hobby, they are best left in the wild. One question we should ask is it worth thousands of these fish to die so that a handfull survive in a few tanks. As long as we keep purchasing these fish the demand will be there and more than not will die a slow starvation. I will not own a mandrin again, and advocate that only the largest of tanks can keep one. Dave

[MperRluvR]

theres no denying it will be a task, but i'm up to it. anyone have any ideas on how to get a bunch of these pods into like a cup or bag or something without physically taking the live rock and shaking it or w/e. you know those brine hatcheries how the baby brine swims towards the light. something like that so it's not a pain to get all the pods. if theres no other way, than o well i guess i just deal with it.

[MperRluvR]

FWIW

i don't see why everyone is assuming that EVERY single one died of starvation. the statistics are there- they need a LOT of pods, but did he leave you a suicide note that said he starved to death? is there not a possible chance that another fish killed him for w/e reason, that your water quality was not up to par, etc. i am not trying to imply anything, just wondering why everyone acts like the only way this fish could die is starvation.

Just sort of wondering

[SDA619]

my friend dannyboy has had one in a 20 for like ever... but then again inside the tank is packed with chaeto he just placed it in the rear corners. the pods have a safe haven to produce. i dont know about the 2+ year mark but im sure hes on 1+ year.

[Withers]

Originally posted by MperRluvR

i have had a 120 gallon tank up for about 6 months now. the sand in it was from my previos tank and is about 1 year old. theres about 90 pound in there. to that i am adding a 55 gallon sump to replace my current 30 and a 150 rubbermaid refug. I then plan to but the ampipod breeding kit from ispf.com i will breed these guys in my refug. and in about 3 months harvest them daily for the mandarin that will be going in my nano cube when i'm ready. I'm sure this has been done before. any experiences? ipsf.com states that a great breeding ground for pods is the macro algae ulva, which i plan to have a lot of. I cant posiblly see how there wouldnt be enough food for him, the pods would still be growing in the other tank of a total 325 gallon volume. Does anyone know if a certain type of sand works best for breeding pods? I wanted to do a 4-5" DSB of that cheap homedepot stuff, which is pretty fine sand.

 

Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly, you have a 120 that's well suited for a mandarin... but instead you're gonna throw him in a 12 gallon tank and just give him food from the 120?!?! That's just mean.

 

Spotting a starving fish is pretty easy... they have sunken in sides. That's not to say that a lot of mandarins don't die for other reasons, but I'll bet that most of them lead to other fish outcompeting the mandarin for food, or bullying the mandarin so he doesn't come out to feed.

[MperRluvR]

I suppose I should have explained myself.

The reason that am choosing not to put him in my 120 is simple. In that 120 is a undulate trigger that will eat anything i put in it, including my hand, or a mandarin dragonet. I don't feel that it is mean to put him in the 12. He will then be part of a reef which closer resembles his natural habitat anyways.

There is also a RBTA that is about 6-7" long in there and i have read in Scott Michael's Marine Fishes book that anemones will eat these guys.

 

Spotting a starving fish is pretty easy... they have sunken in sides.

So you're saying that the mandarins you've seen die had sunken in sides? Why didn't you move it to another tank or feed it more pods then?

 

That's not to say that a lot of mandarins don't die for other reasons, but I'll bet that most of them lead to other fish outcompeting the mandarin for food, or bullying the mandarin so he doesn't come out to feed.

There will be no other fish in this nano-cube, obviously. So he will not be competing for and food from anyone but himself. He will not be bullied/killed by my trigger, and he has no chance of getting stuck in my overflow and slowly starving to death there, which I have seen happen.

 

and as JustPhish said

I think some people might be a little confused in the tank size a mandarin can be kept in. It's usually not a size, since size of the tank means nothing. The tank could be 1000 gallons and have no place for breeding of food so the mandarin still wouldn't survive. It's really a tank big enough to house the live rock needed to ensure food is being produced faster than it can be eaten.

 

Anyways I think that he would enjoy it much better in there, it's dimmer lighting and everything.

[Withers]

So you're saying that the mandarins you've seen die had sunken in sides? Why didn't you move it to another tank or feed it more pods then?

 

Hardly. I've never kept a mandarin because I realize that my tank cannot support one. I've been around aquariums long enough to spot a starving fish, they're really easy to identify.

 

How are you planning on feeding the 12 gallon? Pods will not come out of the live rock, so maybe if you continually replace all the rock in the 12 gallon once or twice a week, but it'll definitely be a lot of work. You will also have to worry about vacations, etc... will somebody be able to give him proper care if you have to leave?

 

How attached to your trigger are you?