Classroom Tank Size and Budget help

[TigerReefs]

Hello! Been following along, reading and researching and finally time to take the plunge, but I have a couple questions.

 

First, I'm a high school chemistry (upstate NY). I've had a few freshwater tanks in the past, and just setup a 20-gallon freshwater tank in my classroom this year. I've always been attracted to the hobby, but there are so many connections to the subject, and the vibe in the room is definitely better with something living. I want to start a reef tank next Fall.

 

So here's the criteria:

1. We have brand new science classrooms. I was planning a 20-long reef tank. The plan was to leave the tank at school over the summer (I live close enough) but I found out the next two summers are off-limits (asbestos abatement). After that, they can leave my room air-conditioned over the summer and I can have access to my room.

2. Our district offers grants up to $1500 for innovative ideas. I also see this as a hobby and interest for me, so I don't mind spending a some money on the project also, but that's sort of the soft cap for the first 12 months.

 

So Question 1: If I keep a nano tank (10-20 gallons) with 2-3 fish and some softies/LPS can I move it home and back for a couple of summers? It seems possible, but not recommended long-term.

Question 2: What is the best tank option if it's moving? Keep the 20-long concept, or go to something smaller like the IM 15 cube, Fluval 13.5 or smaller? I'm leaning towards the 15 Cube. 

Question 3: What should I expect for monthIy costs (food, chemicals, medicines). I have a decent idea on the cost for the equipment (tank, powerhead, heater, lights -ok, that's still up in the air).  Again, 2-4 fish, softies/LPS/zoas (slow and patient) and a CUC. I've got a $$ for salt, but since it's a living tank, I know monthly food and chemicals can't be known with any certainty. I'm just hoping to have a soft range here.

 

Thanks!

[debbeach13]

Welcome to NR

I'll play, build a reef on a budget. Prices from Petco, Amazon, or Bulk Reef Supply

20L tank   $60.00

Power heads Sicce voyager 1000 $40.00 x 2 = $80.00

sand $20.00

marco coraline dry rock 20-pound pack $86.00

50-watt heater with controller $40.00

AROUND $300.00 in equipment to start the cycle.

I am not sure where you are located. Where will you get your Water? Most locations you cannot use the tap. You have to buy RO / DI water - about $1.30 per gallon at grocery store. About $.50 cents a gallon at LS. Maybe you can buy already mixed salt water at the LS. Or you get a decent 4 stage RO/DI system. They start at about $200.00.

Instant Ocean 50-gallon bag of salt $25.00

Also if you plan on any fish you MUST get a lid. A premade hinged glass lid $25.00 or a screen one $28.00. OR a DIY kit from Home Depot or Lowes to make a screen lid. 

After cycle complete. Led light for softie/LPS $350.

 

Absolutely worth checking local listing for used equipment.

Look for a local reef club. A source of advice and possible deals.

 

 

[ryans.salty.crew]

I would just like to add another expense, you'll probably need some test kits of some kind. Hanna's are very highly recommended, I use them!

 

Their are lights on amazon for as little as $40 that you can connect a $5 timer to

 

My suggestion is keep it sttuuppiidd simple. Maybe a hang on the back filter instead of an all in one on a rimless tank (easier to move and cheaper)

 

You CAN do this hobby under $500. You don't always need the nicest set ups to make it look stunning. As my mama once said "it's not what's on the outside, it's what's on the inside" 😆

[TigerReefs]

44 minutes ago, debbeach13 said:

I am not sure where you are located. Where will you get your Water?

 

Absolutely worth checking local listing for used equipment.

Look for a local reef club. A source of advice and possible deals.

Thanks debbeach! I think I read your whole 14-page journal 2 days ago!

I'm in a high school science department. I can work in the RO/DI as our method for getting distilled water. So that's fine.

But since I'm applying for grant/school money, I can't get used gear. 

 

22 minutes ago, ryans.salty.crew said:

I would just like to add another expense, you'll probably need some test kits of some kind. Hanna's are very highly recommended, I use them!

My budget has Equipment, Livestock and Miscellaneous, but I forgot the test kits. Thanks! And definitely, the internet is full of examples of both simple and complicated systems that work. My guess is the "simple" systems need to be smart about what and why they make changes.

 

[ajmckay]

This is a cool idea, especially for a high school class if you ask me. 

 

For your questions:

1) Absolutely you can move it around, assuming you're a short drive from your school.  There are plenty of threads on moving tanks even many hours.  The jist is you fill a few 5 gallon buckets with good lids with tank water to keep the fish, rocks, and corals in.  Then continue draining the tank until there's only enough to cover the sand.  move tank and set up again. 

 

2) For monthly costs, since you have the water source covered, are salt, food, and testing reagents.  Food for 2-3 fish, buying frozen, would be like $5/mo.  If you can get away with flake or pellets then even less.  Clownfish will scarf pellets all day.  Wild caught will need to be weaned and may never accept pellets or flake.  A 50g bag of salt mix is like $20 and if you do weekly 5g water changes that's 10 weeks worth so call it ~10/mo in salt. 

 

Honestly that's about it.  As for other ideas you should totally get the students to do the water testing and maintenance.  It's not rocket science but honestly the ability to follow instructions and care for something is a good life skill.  

 

Finally, since this is in a chemistry classroom I would definitely take precautions.  Meaning you should keep a lid on the tank, and be aware of any potentially toxic fumes near the tank.  Do be careful with the lid though - a tank will require some gas exchange.  You could use something like an air stone though and keep the lid almost completely sealed.  

[geekreef_05]

First, i applaud the idea. A reef tank as a real life tool for student education sounds phenomenal. 

 

However. This plan is clearly set up for failure. And i think you know that... as you stated moving reef aquariums is not recommended. Not only will this be your first reef, but your starting by setting a high, complex goal. Im kinda shocked at the responses already provided. 

 

1) Success in this hobby requires incredible stablization. A new reef requires 1-2 years to stablize and get through various phases of ugly alges and issues. Moving a reef tank every 6 months is guaranteed to be a disaster, over time. Its extremely stressful for inhabitants. Even if it works out for a couple moves, long term your really stressing out fish and inverts.

 

Moving a tank is a huge risk. Almost everyone ends up with some dead livestock and somekind of upset to stablization, post move.

 

Last time i moved houses, i had a 13.5 gallon.. it resulted in dead coral, 1 dead fish and a massive hair alge bloom.

 

Ive moved 3 reefs in my life. 2 were a disaster. 1 went well but that was a 120 gallon FOWLR tank that was over 10 years old.

 

Just scan through tank journals here to see how moving tanks have gone for most people. Its gonna be a mixed bag. 

 

2) For a tank to house 3-4 fish you'd want something above 20 gallons. 

 

Lets say you have a clownfish pair in a 13.5 reef... they will need a larger tank eventually. Most reef fish live for over 10 years. Clownfish into the 15 year mark. 

 

3) $1500 is a nice grant, but barely covers the hardware for any good quality equipment. Lights, powerhead and aquarium are key.

 

If your keeping corals, you'll also need dosing pumps, lots of test kits, an ato and a reservoir. 

 

If your into success you will want to consider backup power or figuring out what happens in a power outtage. 

 

Yes you can buy low cost alternatives. But the result, reliability and troubleshooting efforts will reflect that.

 

Monthly costs include frozen food, salt, RO water, carbon, filters, dosing liquids and the unexpected. 

 

ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS:

Given that it takes a few months to go from cycle to stablization your first class/semester may not get to see many corals.

 

And your second semester will be witness to wave after wave of algae blooms.

 

This is not a hobby of quick success. 

 

Honestly, i would consider alternatives

 

Why not just take them to a public aquarium?

 

Consider freshwater classroom tank instead. Way cheaper. Way simpler.

 

Consider convincing the school admin the reef aquarium should be permanent at the school. 

 

Consider collaborating with local reef business or youtubers who can provide both funds, advice and setup help.

 

Consider alternative classroom pets that are magnitudes easier. Catapiller to butterfly transformation. Hamster or mouse with mazes, etc. Remember that reefs are the most sensitive environments on the planet and the most complex pets to keep. 

 

Again i really like the idea and gusto you have. But consider what ive said. Do your research. Alot of research. See how reef moves have honestly gone for people who have done them. 

[ajmckay]

@geekreef_05 Gatekeep much? OP is a chemistry teacher who's kept fish before.  So while I can tell you only want OP to succeed this is an idea that can be successful.   

 

I move stuff around all the time. And I'm not alone. I was at a frag swap last weekend where 20+ vendors hauled thousands of $$$ in corals, inverts, and fish to the show, set it all up, and the next day took it all down and transported their unsold livestock back to their grow out tanks.  Most of the vendors do this multiple times per year. Keeping stable water parameters during a move is a matter of having a good plan before you start and knowing basic chemistry (salinity, pH, temp, etc..).  

 

I'm not saying reefing doesn't pose challenges, because it does. But any reasonably researched adult should be able to handle them and mitigate the majority of issues (like algae blooms) just by doing regular water changes and going through a simple quarantine process.

[geekreef_05]

On 4/28/2024 at 11:30 PM, ajmckay said:

@geekreef_05 Gatekeep much? OP is a chemistry teacher who's kept fish before.  So while I can tell you only want OP to succeed this is an idea that can be successful.   

 

I move stuff around all the time. And I'm not alone. I was at a frag swap last weekend where 20+ vendors hauled thousands of $$$ in corals, inverts, and fish to the show, set it all up, and the next day took it all down and transported their unsold livestock back to their grow out tanks.  Most of the vendors do this multiple times per year. Keeping stable water parameters during a move is a matter of having a good plan before you start and knowing basic chemistry (salinity, pH, temp, etc..).  

 

I'm not saying reefing doesn't pose challenges, because it does. But any reasonably researched adult should be able to handle them and mitigate the majority of issues (like algae blooms) just by doing regular water changes and going through a simple quarantine process.

I would say i provided a rational alternative perspective, considering that no one else outlined the challenges. 

 

It's hard to compare reefing companies that goto big events to the average person moving a reef. Companies arent moving their well established grow out system. Just enough water and livestock for a show/sale. Obviously they successfully move inhabitants around all the time, but its not the same as a person attempting to first establish and then continually move a reef twice a year.

 

EDIT: IF THE OP IS TALKING ABOUT JUST 2 MOVES IN THE LIFE OF THIS REEF, THATS NO PROBLEM...BUT if its TWICE PER YEAR....home for summer and back again for like 10 years. Oof. Yikes. 

 

Maybe you have mastered this. Maybe you have a formula for moving a reef every 6 months. 

 

But the reality is that most people run into challenges when moving an aquarium. Experienced or not. Therefore i think my comments...although perhaps disappointing ...provide an honest look at the challenges.

 

i think its easy to be overly optimistic about timeline, challenges and costs.

 

Again. I applaud the idea. I think the concept is awesome. I think the kids will benefit greatly from any direction the OP takes. With ideas like this, im sure its a cool class to be in. And a cool teacher to have. 

 

But establishing a reef which you then move each summer and fall...hard to rationally square dude.

 

Thats my two cents. 

[TigerReefs]

I do appreciate hearing both sides of the argument. A striking argument to consider is - even if the reef were permanent and never moving from day 1 - the students watching year one will see a small number of fish and coral, and possibly a good amount of time battling the ugly phase.

 

The plan would start the tank in August 2024, bring the tank home end of June 2025, back to school September 2025. I have been told I can have access over the summer following that. So moving back and forth one summer.

 

I also asked on another forum, and the current plan is to go bare-bottom until the tank is done moving. It seems disturbing the sand bed often results in a mess, and if you have to move a reef tank many people get new sand anyways. I'm excited about the opportunities this can create. I feel I have the resolve to move slowly and keep the fish numbers low, and add coral slowly. When it comes time to move the tank for summer, I will have plenty of time to prep for the move.

 

Any thoughts on going bare-bottom vs sand? And I guess I'm not asking for aesthetics purposes (I think sand looks better), but more for ease of moving the tank and possibly keeping nuisance algae down.

[AiredaleReef]

1 hour ago, TigerReefs said:

Any thoughts on going bare-bottom vs sand? And I guess I'm not asking for aesthetics purposes (I think sand looks better), but more for ease of moving the tank and possibly keeping nuisance algae down.

It seems like you have taken your time in doing research to set yourself up for the best success. I think we all can appreciate that! Although moving a tank will have its challenges, it can be done successfully. I would +1 the idea of setting up the tank bare bottom until you make the final move. 

 

Really, the biggest advantage of a sand bed in a reef tank is the increased biological filtration! This is key early on in the nitrification process as well removing and recycling excess nutrients. I think the other forum is correct in that you could cause a bigger issue, disturbing an already settled sand bed. 

 

Adding sand in the future would be quite simple as well. You may run into the occasional algae bloom (diatoms perhaps), but nothing that I would consider to be irreparable.  

[geekreef_05]

1 hour ago, TigerReefs said:

I do appreciate hearing both sides of the argument. A striking argument to consider is - even if the reef were permanent and never moving from day 1 - the students watching year one will see a small number of fish and coral, and possibly a good amount of time battling the ugly phase.

 

The plan would start the tank in August 2024, bring the tank home end of June 2025, back to school September 2025. I have been told I can have access over the summer following that. So moving back and forth one summer.

 

I also asked on another forum, and the current plan is to go bare-bottom until the tank is done moving. It seems disturbing the sand bed often results in a mess, and if you have to move a reef tank many people get new sand anyways. I'm excited about the opportunities this can create. I feel I have the resolve to move slowly and keep the fish numbers low, and add coral slowly. When it comes time to move the tank for summer, I will have plenty of time to prep for the move.

 

Any thoughts on going bare-bottom vs sand? And I guess I'm not asking for aesthetics purposes (I think sand looks better), but more for ease of moving the tank and possibly keeping nuisance algae down.

That definately sounds do-able. A total of 3 moves for the life of the reef isnt too bad. 

 

No sand until the final move makes alot of sense as well. 

 

Great stuff. This will be an interesting project for the students. 

 

Everything from ammonia cycles to par readings to symbiotic relationships can lead to great science discussions

 

Good on ya! Hope you start a tank journal for this project!.

[mcarroll]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:06 PM, TigerReefs said:

So Question 1: If I keep a nano tank (10-20 gallons) with 2-3 fish and some softies/LPS can I move it home and back for a couple of summers? It seems possible, but not recommended long-term.

Definitely do your research on moving a tank – ignore folks who've lost livestock and PAY ATTENTION to everyone who has not.   Journals and Google searches will be your friend.  Ask your LFS for advice too.  (If you have no LFS I would have second thoughts about doing this, BTW.  No local access to critters is a real drag on the experience...shiping is hard on them, and some things, like CUC, you NEED local access to so you can add 1-2 snails when you need them.  Getting 10-20 snails "sometime in the next week or two" doesn't usually work.  Either you need em sooner or you don't need that many....or both.

 

On 4/25/2024 at 10:06 PM, TigerReefs said:

Question 2: What is the best tank option if it's moving? Keep the 20-long concept, or go to something smaller like the IM 15 cube, Fluval 13.5 or smaller? I'm leaning towards the 15 Cube. 

The smaller the better in terms of weight, but smaller tanks are NEVER better in terms of livestock – so selecting is a balancing act.  

 

As someone else mentioned, you'll want more than 20 gallons for the number of fish you mentioned...or you'll be stuck selecting only from nano-sized fish (eg neon gobies).   Cool fish, but VERY limited selection.

 

IMO the best portable tank size is the largest size you can carry by yourself.  For me that's a 50 Breeder.  YMMV.

 

On 4/25/2024 at 10:06 PM, TigerReefs said:

Question 3: What should I expect for monthIy costs (food, chemicals, medicines). I have a decent idea on the cost for the equipment (tank, powerhead, heater, lights -ok, that's still up in the air).  Again, 2-4 fish, softies/LPS/zoas (slow and patient) and a CUC. I've got a $$ for salt, but since it's a living tank, I know monthly food and chemicals can't be known with any certainty. I'm just hoping to have a soft range here.

It can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be, but you have to account for this goal when selecting EVERYTHING including livestock.

 

My tank costs VERY little to run, a few dollars per month.  (If you look thru my posts I've done a cost breakdown before.   ...but it coulda been on r2r.)

 

Something to consider is that back in the hobby's hayday when the value of live rock was more widely appreciated (mostly in the 90's and early-2000's), a good rule of thumb was to spend about 1/3 of your budget on tank/stand/etc, 1/3 on lights and 1/3 on live rock.   That was before everything was made in China, so costs have come down on gear (eg lighting) CONSIDERABLY since then....but still a good rationale to start with.

 

10 hours ago, TigerReefs said:

A striking argument to consider is - even if the reef were permanent and never moving from day 1 - the students watching year one will see a small number of fish and coral, and possibly a good amount of time battling the ugly phase.

If you use the typical plan on the internet (dead rock, et al) then you'll get typical results.  Folks use dead rock and more or less "doom" themselves to this fate.  

 

Naked dead rock is 100% ready for pest algae to populate – nothing like coralline algae (or any other periphyton) there to stop it from happening.  Sometimes folks forget the role of the cleanup crew and add too few, or add them too late...sometimes none at all...I suspect this is mostly folks who lack a LFS.  FYI, CUC should go in first...mostly herbivorous snails.

 

Instead of going down that typical road, use your budget to acquire aquacultured live rock and make that part of the experience.  Don't be in a rush to add corals or fish like many folks.  (There will be plenty to observe on the rock.)

 

For us simple hobbyists, maybe dead rock makes some sense (tho personally I don't get it) but in a science class, live rock is 100% a no-brainer.  Your class will see SO MANY cool things/critters that are NEVER present in a dead-rock reef....most hitchhikers you get will be reef safe, but some you'll want to remove from the tank (maybe to house in a secondary tank – some are just as interesting as the reef!).

 

For reference, tbsaltwater has 8 pound of premium rock for around $72...20 pounds goes for about $180.....so VERY affordable in your $1500 soft limit.  There are other vendors who aquaculture rock as well.

 

Take it to school....

What is the lesson in using dead rock?  How to be penny-wise but pound-foolish?  How to be in a hurry?  How to mine for minerals?  Hm.  🤔

What is the lesson in aquacultured rock?   How to use resources wisely and in an ecologically sound manner.  Learn what critters ACTUALLY live on a reef.  Etc.  (It's a long list.)

 

• 40 Breeder on sale at Petco:  $40
• 20 pounds of live rock: $180
• Tunze 9004 protein skimmer:  $190
  ...OR...
• Tunze Reefpack 250 (skimmer+filter):  $265
• Current USA 36" LED kit:  $250
• Two Tunze 6045 flow pumps:  $174

Total:  $909

 

That total isn't "everything", but it's the major items.  Importantly, you can see that you aren't getting anywhere near $1500 with this setup, and there are already a few ways to spend less (without going smaller) if you wanted to.  🙂 👍   Plenty of budget left for livestock, etc.

 

Good luck!   Hope this helps!

 

P.S.  Several teachers on here have done more or less the same thing in their classrooms....maybe try digging up some old threads on that topic specifically?