Would love to hear some suggestions from experienced people

[Lennie]

Hey Everyone!😄

 

It's Lennie. Quite experienced in the freshwater, an actual newbie in the saltwater world. This forum helped me a lot during researching experiences so I wanted to join and ask a few questions myself.

 

Currently cycling my first saltwater tank after wanting to setup one for months, it is day 17! Started lighting the tank 3 days ago on the acclimation mode, the lights were off for the first two weeks. Ammonia cleared up, now it is about waiting nitrites to nitrates, and also letting tank mature up by the time. Planning to start with adding algae eaters/cleanup crew when I start seeing any natural food source growth in the tank. Meanwhile, I am planning to QT fish with the sponge I am cycling in a different tub.

 

The tank is 50x40x25cm shallow one, custom made, 50 liters. It has sand but not a deep sand bed, just to cover the bottom and that's it. It is a quite minimalistic setup, small HOB filled with sponge and filter floss for mechanical filteration, circulation pump, heater, live sand, dry rocks, light, heater, a small heater that is set to 25C/77F. Salinity is at 1.025 based on my refractometer reading ( I started cycling with hydrometer readings but my hydrometer readings were constantly showing as 1.024 while I saw that refractometer always showed 1.028, So I decided to keep the tank stable with refractometer readings and set the tank to 1.025 based of refractometer readings. 

The tank (ignore the purigen bag, I had raw shrimp in it for ammonia):

 

 

 

I watched many videos read many topics for beginner friendly fish for nano tanks similar to my tank size, but having a shallow tank comes with a few different perspectives.

First, there is not top-mid-bottom level really. At best, we can call it bottom level and the rest, so any territorial fish might be problematic for their level, even tho they would have a chance to not spend time at the same level normally to prevent this. So I wanted to hear some experienced recommendations to not mess up.

The fish/invertebrates that interest me are as follows:

1- Clownfish/ A. ocellaris
2- Firefish
3-Yellow clown goby
4- Yellow watchman goby
5-Banggai Cardinal

-------------------
6- Red Tuxedo Sea Urchin
7-Fire Shrimp/Cleaner Shrimp

+any hermits snails conch etc. Please let me know how many would you add from any of these.


I thought of something like one Black storm clown, one red firefish, either one yellow clown goby OR yellow watchman goby, and one banggai Cardinal.

OR
Just an anemone tank with two clowns, and any recommendations that may share the same tank if added prior to the baby clowns. I just saw a topic about clowns horribly bullied a firefish and I am hesitant. I keep hearing they are mean and bullies. Can anything live with a potential pair of clowns in this tank? Also, in case anemones start to outgrow the tank, I can easily increase the tanksize. That's not an issue

OR
Any other suggestion you have!

P.S: Accepting flake/pellet food is important. I have my own whiteworm culture and I hatch live bbs (dunno if saltwater fish show any interest as they are tiny) if that's also useful for their diet. Sourcing frozen food is tough for me. I can also feed frozen clams, shrimp, etc. that are sold in the supermarket if any fish in the list would appreciate it.
The top of the tank will be covered by a lid. Don't worry!


I also liked Gold belly blue damsels and royal dottyback but I keep hearing damsels in general are pretty aggressive so it is a pass. Tailspot blennies look cool, one of the saltwater LFS in my city had those, and I am not sure if I loved it. I liked midas blennies but they seem big and active for my tank size.

 

Would love to hear any ideas from you guys or stocking combination with those I mentioned above. Pistol shrimp, and even cleaner/fire red shrimp are not available for some time in my country, so even though goby-pistol shrimp combo looks nice, it is not an option for me.

 

Cheers,

 

[Staticmoves]

13 gal is tight for two clowns. ( unless they were the only fish in the tank. You would be maxed.

and if they pair up, the female would most likely tear the eyeballs out of anything else in the tank.

tank looks great by the way, looking forward to the build progress, and welcome to NR.

you may get away with a pair of clowns and a small goby/shrimp combo as they occupy a different space than the clowns. But it would be a risk. ( depends on the clowns) however you may luck out and they stay chill.

if you decide to go with a pair and let’s say a goby shrimp combo as well. I would tend to add goby shrimp first, let them establish, then add clown pair a month or so down the road.

lets see what others have to say for input.

we all have our own two cents, from different perspectives.

 

[KC2020]

I would agree that a pair of clowns would either have to be the only fish or you'll have trouble.

 

That's a nice looking tank but one thing I'd strongly recommend is a cover. The fish on your list are all potential jumpers. Particularly the Filefish and the Gobies.

You need to wait a minimum of 3 months, preferably 6 months, before adding an anemone. They require a really stable reef.

Good luck ! You're off to a good start.

[Lennie]

First, thanks guys for the suggestions and the tank compliments! I LOVE shallow tanks! Hope this turns out well. If it does, it won't be a last one for sure 🙂

6 hours ago, Staticmoves said:

13 gal is tight for two clowns. ( unless they were the only fish in the tank. You would be maxed.

and if they pair up, the female would most likely tear the eyeballs out of anything else in the tank.

tank looks great by the way, looking forward to the build progress, and welcome to NR.

you may get away with a pair of clowns and a small goby/shrimp combo as they occupy a different space than the clowns. But it would be a risk. ( depends on the clowns) however you may luck out and they stay chill.

if you decide to go with a pair and let’s say a goby shrimp combo as well. I would tend to add goby shrimp first, let them establish, then add clown pair a month or so down the road.

lets see what others have to say for input.

we all have our own two cents, from different perspectives.

 

I see confirmed pairs being sold for expensive prices. I would rather grow my own fish to have their maximum lifespan, and enjoy their growth from tiny juveniles to an adult size gradually. Baby fish are cute. I talked to the owner of a saltwater only LFS here, and he said if I get two small juveniles, the clowns will pair up anyway. I guess it is not %100 guaranteed but very likely?

 

Many goby options are available, but sadly no pistol shrimp in my country. I don't see many shrimp being imported. We don't even have amanos for the freshwater hobby. I don't know the reason behind it, but it might be related to regulations. 

 

Firefish is like the dream fish for me in this hobby. When I was a kid, I would go to our local forum and read all about fishes, and I was always impressed by the look of firefish. I really would like to keep one but definitely not with a clown pair and risk it.

 

Would a single clownfish be as aggressive towards tankmates? I keep reading they are territorial. 

 

5 hours ago, KC2020 said:

I would agree that a pair of clowns would either have to be the only fish or you'll have trouble.

 

That's a nice looking tank but one thing I'd strongly recommend is a cover. The fish on your list are all potential jumpers. Particularly the Filefish and the Gobies.

You need to wait a minimum of 3 months, preferably 6 months, before adding an anemone. They require a really stable reef.

Good luck ! You're off to a good start.

Hello!

 

Okay, So it is either only pair of clowns or a community tank without a clown pair. Got it

 

I'm gonna decide between the two options, As I love the idea of a clown pair lasting for years or even having a chance to have babies, or keep one of my dream fish which is firefish and go for a community tank setup

 

I am working on a DIY mesh lid! Don't worr. I have a lid for the quarantine tank already

 

What do you guys think of a red tuxedo sea urchin? Also How many cleanup crew members should I add from each species for this tank size, and when? Normally, adding a nerite snail to a tank without any natural growth would starve it to death. However, majority of any other snails in the freshwater hobby consume given veggies,foods, algae tabs etc. so they do not solely depend on the natural growth in the tank. How is the case when it comes to algae eating critters/snails here?

 

How do these sound:

1st option -Cleanup crew, 1x firefish, 1x A.ocellaris, 1x benggai cardinal, 1x small goby of any sort. Weekly water changes. OR maybe skip benggai cardinal. Almost everyone says they never move even in huge tanks, so focusing on activity level makes more sense than the fish size, no? Some say they are suitable for this tank size, while others say they need 20-30g+.

 

2nd option- Cleanup crew, 2x A.ocellaris and Anemone or easy corals. Expect two to pair up eventually. Would these two attack even shrimp that comes near, if one day I can find fire shrimp for example, or keep peppermint shrimp etc?

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Disagree. Cover isnt needed.

 

Firefish are jumpers. None of the others are. Clowns definitely not.  

 

I vote anemone and clown tank. Those are always great.

[Spencer7]

Anemone + two clowns (no other fish)is an easy people pleaser. You would need a cover for any firefish. 

 

Probably no urchin for the foreseeable future. 

 

Yasha gobies are awesome and docile if you want a cool(er) small goby. You could also have like five barnacle blennies in the tank.

 

You could try a pair of cardinals (no clowns)...you have the BBS to try raising fry eventually.

 

A plectranthias is another interesting option that is small enough for the tank. They're a reclusive fish. 

 

I wouldn't be so committed on having 3-4 different kinds of fish in this small of a tank. You'll likely have 1-2 species.  

 

RE inverts: tiger conches are a favorite of mine. Would have one in this tank. 

 

The more rockwork (with swim-throughs) you provide, the more comfortable the fish will be. More places to hide. Becomes important in a small tank. 

[Lennie]

Since I'm new, my messages need to be approved by a mod. So when all of these get approved, I hope it won't cause any confusion 😄 

 

3 hours ago, geekreef_05 said:

Disagree. Cover isnt needed.

 

Firefish are jumpers. None of the others are. Clowns definitely not.  

 

I vote anemone and clown tank. Those are always great.

Thank you. Black-white clowns look amazing with red-purple-pink tone anemones/corals/macroalgae in my opinion. That is sort of an impressive setup for me.

 

I would play safe and make a DIY mesh lid. I normally lower the water level if I use no lid, but I wanna use this tank at max point. So Lid would be a safe bet

 

 

39 minutes ago, Spencer7 said:

Anemone + two clowns (no other fish)is an easy people pleaser. You would need a cover for any firefish. 

 

Probably no urchin for the foreseeable future. 

 

Yasha gobies are awesome and docile if you want a cool(er) small goby. You could also have like five barnacle blennies in the tank.

 

You could try a pair of cardinals (no clowns)...you have the BBS to try raising fry eventually.

 

A plectranthias is another interesting option that is small enough for the tank. They're a reclusive fish. 

 

I wouldn't be so committed on having 3-4 different kinds of fish in this small of a tank. You'll likely have 1-2 species.  

 

RE inverts: tiger conches are a favorite of mine. Would have one in this tank. 

 

The more rockwork (with swim-throughs) you provide, the more comfortable the fish will be. More places to hide. Becomes important in a small tank. 

Yasha gobies look very cool. I will be checking out for them in my favorite LFS stores. I like yellow watchman gobies too, but they seem to be in rough shape usually. I havent seen many healthy looking ones. Is it a common thing?

 

Banggai cardinal reminds me of a night with a sky full of stars. Even those it looks like a simple fish, it looks very cool. But I wouldn't be willing to dedicate my tank just for a banggai pair for now. Maybe in the future!

 

Here are some pictures from other sides. Do you think I need more rocks? Wouldnt it cut too much from the swimming space, considering there will be corals or anemone added?

 

P.S: it was the second day of the tank so it looks milky. I had these in my gallery so I wanted to share this way. I am planning to get a new circulation pump as this one slows down very much when I dont take the front protective barrier out. This way it is risky to use but does the job while doing a fishless cycle

 

[Lennie]

This one was my first message that does not seem to appear so reposting it.

 

Thanks guys for the suggestions and the tank compliments! I LOVE shallow tanks! Hope this turns out well. If it does, it won't be a last one for sure 🙂

On 3/4/2024 at 5:06 AM, Staticmoves said:

13 gal is tight for two clowns. ( unless they were the only fish in the tank. You would be maxed.

and if they pair up, the female would most likely tear the eyeballs out of anything else in the tank.

tank looks great by the way, looking forward to the build progress, and welcome to NR.

you may get away with a pair of clowns and a small goby/shrimp combo as they occupy a different space than the clowns. But it would be a risk. ( depends on the clowns) however you may luck out and they stay chill.

if you decide to go with a pair and let’s say a goby shrimp combo as well. I would tend to add goby shrimp first, let them establish, then add clown pair a month or so down the road.

lets see what others have to say for input.

we all have our own two cents, from different perspectives.

 

I see confirmed pairs being sold for expensive prices. I would rather grow my own fish to have their maximum lifespan, and enjoy their growth from tiny juveniles to an adult size gradually. Baby fish are cute. I talked to the owner of a saltwater only LFS here, and he said if I get two small juveniles, the clowns will pair up anyway. I guess it is not %100 guaranteed but very likely?

 

Many goby options are available, but sadly no pistol shrimp in my country. I don't see many shrimp being imported. We don't even have amanos for the freshwater hobby. I don't know the reason behind it, but it might be related to regulations. 

 

Firefish is like the dream fish for me in this hobby. When I was a kid, I would go to our local forum and read all about fishes, and I was always impressed by the look of firefish. I really would like to keep one but definitely not with a clown pair and risk it.

 

Would a single clownfish be as aggressive towards tankmates? I keep reading they are territorial. 

 

On 3/4/2024 at 5:41 AM, KC2020 said:

I would agree that a pair of clowns would either have to be the only fish or you'll have trouble.

 

That's a nice looking tank but one thing I'd strongly recommend is a cover. The fish on your list are all potential jumpers. Particularly the Filefish and the Gobies.

You need to wait a minimum of 3 months, preferably 6 months, before adding an anemone. They require a really stable reef.

Good luck ! You're off to a good start.

Hello!

 

Okay, So it is either only pair of clowns or a community tank without a clown pair. Got it

 

I'm gonna decide between the two options, As I love the idea of a clown pair lasting for years or even having a chance to have babies, or keep one of my dream fish which is firefish and go for a community tank setup

 

I am working on a DIY mesh lid! Don't worr. I have a lid for the quarantine tank already

 

What do you guys think of a red tuxedo sea urchin? Also How many cleanup crew members should I add from each species for this tank size, and when? Normally, adding a nerite snail to a tank without any natural growth would starve it to death. However, majority of any other snails in the freshwater hobby consume given veggies,foods, algae tabs etc. so they do not solely depend on the natural growth in the tank. How is the case when it comes to algae eating critters/snails here?

 

How do these sound:

1st option -Cleanup crew, 1x firefish, 1x A.ocellaris, 1x benggai cardinal, 1x small goby of any sort. Weekly water changes. OR maybe skip benggai cardinal. Almost everyone says they never move even in huge tanks, so focusing on activity level makes more sense than the fish size, no? Some say they are suitable for this tank size, while others say they need 20-30g+.

 

2nd option- Cleanup crew, 2x A.ocellaris and Anemone or easy corals. Expect two to pair up eventually. Would these two attack even shrimp that comes near, if one day I can find fire shrimp for example, or keep peppermint shrimp etc?

 

 

[Spencer7]

19 hours ago, Lennie said:

 

Here are some pictures from other sides. Do you think I need more rocks? Wouldnt it cut too much from the swimming space, considering there will be corals or anemone added?

That's the thing. In my experience (and I think many would agree), most small reef fish would rather have a 15 gal tank with 30 lbs of live rock than a 30 gal tank and 5 lbs of rock. It goes against what we want (more detritus with scape, don't see fish as much) as tank spectators but I think it reduces stress for inhabitants. 

 

Structure is stimulation and safety. Zig and zagging through passageways is more enjoyable/natural to a fish (IMO) vs. swim space. Depending on the fish, it can also be a difference in food. 

 

I have a minimalistic bonsai tree structure in my 35 gal tank...it's great for acropora (light/flow) but it's not the nicest for fish. They're exposed out in the "sunlight" and I have to be mindful of that. 

 

If you're just going the clownfish route, the anemone serves the same purpose of protection/refuge. 

[Lennie]

10 minutes ago, Spencer7 said:

That's the thing. In my experience (and I think many would agree), most small reef fish would rather have a 15 gal tank with 30 lbs of live rock than a 30 gal tank and 5 lbs of rock. It goes against what we want (more detritus with scape, don't see fish as much) as tank spectators but I think it reduces stress for inhabitants. 

 

Structure is stimulation and safety. Zig and zagging through passageways is more enjoyable/natural to a fish (IMO) vs. swim space. Depending on the fish, it can also be a difference in food. 

 

I have a minimalistic bonsai tree structure in my 35 gal tank...it's great for acropora (light/flow) but it's not the nicest for fish. They're exposed out in the "sunlight" and I have to be mindful of that. 

 

If you're just going the clownfish route, the anemone serves the same purpose of protection/refuge. 

I really like the "storm" colorations of clownfish. I may get two juveniles and hope them to pair.

 

The thing is, the lifespan of clowns seem to be very long in captivity as long as the genetics are not messed up, from what I read. I saw numbers above 20 years. That is a LONG time commitment. I don't like the idea of rehoming my fish, so rather than fish selection itself, I have to make sure I wanna commit keeping two fish for a veeery long time. But the idea of building a relation with them, naming the two, maybe even having fry... It sounds exciting.

 

It is about if I want to give up the idea of firefish and get two clowns and go for a long term commitment. Also, how likely would two random juvenile clowns to pair up when they grow together? And approximately what size should I get them to increase the chances? Confirmed pairs are quite expensive, and I would rather grow my own fish and witness the journey

 

 

I hear what you mean btw. I usually keep my freshwater tanks like a jungle. I dont really care about the way it looks as long as my fish are happy. The main reason why I didn't want to add more rock is, adding corals or anemones would already feel the gaps I thought. After adding corals  or anemone, I will try to fill the gaps with more rocks then, if there is any! I wouldn't like my fish to feel exposed under bright lights. One of the main reasons why I dislike many aquascapes like Iwagumi style. Fish needs>my aesthetic understanding. 

[geekreef_05]

On 3/5/2024 at 3:44 AM, Lennie said:

This one was my first message that does not seem to appear so reposting it.

 

Thanks guys for the suggestions and the tank compliments! I LOVE shallow tanks! Hope this turns out well. If it does, it won't be a last one for sure 🙂

I see confirmed pairs being sold for expensive prices. I would rather grow my own fish to have their maximum lifespan, and enjoy their growth from tiny juveniles to an adult size gradually. Baby fish are cute. I talked to the owner of a saltwater only LFS here, and he said if I get two small juveniles, the clowns will pair up anyway. I guess it is not %100 guaranteed but very likely?

 

Many goby options are available, but sadly no pistol shrimp in my country. I don't see many shrimp being imported. We don't even have amanos for the freshwater hobby. I don't know the reason behind it, but it might be related to regulations. 

 

Firefish is like the dream fish for me in this hobby. When I was a kid, I would go to our local forum and read all about fishes, and I was always impressed by the look of firefish. I really would like to keep one but definitely not with a clown pair and risk it.

 

Would a single clownfish be as aggressive towards tankmates? I keep reading they are territorial. 

 

Hello!

 

Okay, So it is either only pair of clowns or a community tank without a clown pair. Got it

 

I'm gonna decide between the two options, As I love the idea of a clown pair lasting for years or even having a chance to have babies, or keep one of my dream fish which is firefish and go for a community tank setup

 

I am working on a DIY mesh lid! Don't worr. I have a lid for the quarantine tank already

 

What do you guys think of a red tuxedo sea urchin? Also How many cleanup crew members should I add from each species for this tank size, and when? Normally, adding a nerite snail to a tank without any natural growth would starve it to death. However, majority of any other snails in the freshwater hobby consume given veggies,foods, algae tabs etc. so they do not solely depend on the natural growth in the tank. How is the case when it comes to algae eating critters/snails here?

 

How do these sound:

1st option -Cleanup crew, 1x firefish, 1x A.ocellaris, 1x benggai cardinal, 1x small goby of any sort. Weekly water changes. OR maybe skip benggai cardinal. Almost everyone says they never move even in huge tanks, so focusing on activity level makes more sense than the fish size, no? Some say they are suitable for this tank size, while others say they need 20-30g+.

 

2nd option- Cleanup crew, 2x A.ocellaris and Anemone or easy corals. Expect two to pair up eventually. Would these two attack even shrimp that comes near, if one day I can find fire shrimp for example, or keep peppermint shrimp etc?

 

 

 

I like option 2. Choose o.clowns, the smaller of the species. They will pair up if you get them as juveniles. 

 

But why a pep shrimp? One cleaner or blood shrimp would do ok and they look way nicer. 

 

For your aquascape...

 

I suggest a bit more rockwork Tinkering. consider the idea is to create safe spaces for the fish. Think caves and overhangs. The balance is to keep things off the glass, minimize deadspots of waterflow and have a stable formation that wont topple. 

 

Hope tthat elps!  

[Lennie]

50 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

 

I like option 2. Choose o.clowns, the smaller of the species. They will pair up if you get them as juveniles. 

 

But why a pep shrimp? One cleaner or blood shrimp would do ok and they look way nicer. 

 

For your aquascape...

 

I suggest a bit more rockwork Tinkering. consider the idea is to create safe spaces for the fish. Think caves and overhangs. The balance is to keep things off the glass, minimize deadspots of waterflow and have a stable formation that wont topple. 

 

Hope tthat elps!  

Hello again!

 

I ordered two blackstorm clowns this afternoon, online. The best looking saltwater store in my city had wild clowns. I asked why, and they said, they used to sell captive bred clowns, however, since many fish are wildcaught in this hobby, they noticed problems appearing due to captivebred clowns not being used to the pathogens that other wild fish have and they don't have an immunity system that is used to dealing with wildcaught fish pathogens in general. So their customers keeping captive bred and wildcaught fish together ended up causing captive bred fish not doing well in the long term. So they sell only wild ones only.

 

Idk if it is true or better to sayf, reflects the experience of majority in the hobby, but I can surely see different pathogens causing problems. On the other hand, I see many people keeping captive bred clowns with other wildcaught fish in a community tank successfully online. In fact, the store also has a tricolor storm pair in their display.

 

In my opinion, I see no reason why to keep wild clowns when many are easily available captive bred. Therefore, as you mentioned, I wanted to go by second option. So I got me 2x juvenile A.Ocellaris. I dont want to take risk of potential aggression or introducing different pathogens, so I wont add any more fish. The store I got my clownfish from has been keeping the clownfish withwith other captive bred fish sourced from the same place without any other fish from different breeders or tanks, or wild.

 

So future plan is: anemones. I almost got me a bandid brittle star (Ophiolepis superba) today, but decided not to impulse buy. The tank is new, I dont like the idea of adding too many at once.

 

Crustaceans are not available or imported to my country.  I should go for a route of snails, stars, sea hare or urchins as algae eaters/ clean up crew. Yes you are right, cleaner shrimp/Fireshrimp look amazing! But sadly not available. 

[KC2020]

51 minutes ago, Lennie said:

Hello again!

 

I ordered two blackstorm clowns this afternoon, online. The best looking saltwater store in my city had wild clowns. I asked why, and they said, they used to sell captive bred clowns, however, since many fish are wildcaught in this hobby, they noticed problems appearing due to captivebred clowns not being used to the pathogens that other wild fish have and they don't have an immunity system that is used to dealing with wildcaught fish pathogens in general. So their customers keeping captive bred and wildcaught fish together ended up causing captive bred fish not doing well in the long term. So they sell only wild ones only.

While they might actually believe this is true it's really just conjecture. There are thousands upon thousands of captive bred fish being sold worldwide and most of them likely end up a in mixed reef tank with wild caught fish. If the captive bred fish were more susceptible to any environmentally introduced threats of any kind I think it would be widely discussed and well known.

[Koleswrath]

1 hour ago, Lennie said:

In my opinion, I see no reason why to keep wild clowns when many are easily available captive bred.

Great choice!

Even if captive bred fish don't have the immunity that wild fish have (your LFS has been listening to Paul B too much 😉) you can always just buy other captive bred fish! Biota seems to have success with more new species every year. I've got captive bred clowns, a watchmen goby and a dragonet. My LFS specializes in aquacultured corals and captive bred fish/inverts, etc. and they have a pretty good rotation of new fish species. 

He tells me the shipping losses are around 1% compared to 30-60% when he was working for a store selling wild caught fish. Overall my experience with captive bred fish is significantly more positive than wild caught. 

Pat on the back for you!

[mcarroll]

On 3/8/2024 at 2:50 PM, KC2020 said:

While they might actually believe this is true it's really just conjecture. There are thousands upon thousands of captive bred fish being sold worldwide and most of them likely end up a in mixed reef tank with wild caught fish. If the captive bred fish were more susceptible to any environmentally introduced threats of any kind I think it would be widely discussed and well known.

Hard to see at the home level, but in a store you see it.  In a store, you aren't seeing it with just one clown in just one tank the one and only time you buy a clownfish.

 

Definitely not conjecture.

 

Banning captive bred clownfish is NOT the only way to handle the situation in a store tho.  I wonder what kind of filtration the store is using?

 

At home the differences between captive and wild are (supposed to be) offset by the superior living conditions the fish experiences....and when that happens fish don't have issues....all the fish get healthy, functional immune systems out of the deal.  (Check this small part of that equation out.)  

 

In other words, captive vs wild "shouldn't" be a relevant difference at home.  In reality, not everyone ends up providing a great environment for their fish, so...maybe some folks have to resort to unusual methods?

[Lennie]

31 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Hard to see at the home level, but in a store you see it.  In a store, you aren't seeing it with just one clown in just one tank the one and only time you buy a clownfish.

 

Definitely not conjecture.

 

Banning captive bred clownfish is NOT the only way to handle the situation in a store tho.  I wonder what kind of filtration the store is using?

 

At home the differences between captive and wild are (supposed to be) offset by the superior living conditions the fish experiences....and when that happens fish don't have issues....all the fish get healthy, functional immune systems out of the deal.  (Check this small part of that equation out.)  

 

In other words, captive vs wild "shouldn't" be a relevant difference at home.  In reality, not everyone ends up providing a great environment for their fish, so...maybe some folks have to resort to unusual methods?

 

 

On 3/8/2024 at 10:50 PM, KC2020 said:

While they might actually believe this is true it's really just conjecture. There are thousands upon thousands of captive bred fish being sold worldwide and most of them likely end up a in mixed reef tank with wild caught fish. If the captive bred fish were more susceptible to any environmentally introduced threats of any kind I think it would be widely discussed and well known.

Based on my experience with freshwater fish, the effect of pathogens is a common thing. But not exactly specific issue for only captive bred fish tho. Fish that are raised in isolated conditions, or sometimes under conditions with high salinity almost in brackish level for freshwater fish or dumped in antibiotics and other medicine, these fish commonly struggle when they are introduced to a freshwater environment. It is not uncommon at all. In a level, when I got my imported guppies, except a few adults that managed to survive the new pathogens in my tanks ( and they were species only tanks BUT I cycled my filter with filter gunk from my display tank to fasten the procedure), I basically lost almost all adults. Meanwhile, the fry grew up in my tanks from the same adults are super healthy and well.

 

 I even talked about this with a vet and biologist friend before. In short, Other than providing a good diet and nice home, keeping fish immunity and metabolism at optimal level in a stress free environment, all we can expect is fish doing fine I guess. Maybe considering adding a bit of water from the main display tank to introduce new pathogens in low amounts for them to deal with it better perhaps, and treat directly in the quarantine if we face any issues? Just like a vaccination? Introducing fish even between two tanks at home still likely gonna introduce pathogens anyway. Whether they are wild or not

 

BUT, again, I  surely agree the solution is not avoiding captive bred fish, just like you mentioned.  I believe we should even focus and choose captive bred options instead. But raising fry dumped in medicine or so isolated conditions in a level fry not being able to build some resistance against common pathogens is not really a good idea IMO.

 

I went by captive bred clowns instead anyway

[KC2020]

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Hard to see at the home level, but in a store you see it.  In a store, you aren't seeing it with just one clown in just one tank the one and only time you buy a clownfish.

 

Definitely not conjecture.

 

I worked in a LFS for years, Drove to L.A. and picked out fish, corals and inverts for the shop weekly. Mostly wild caught. And I spent a few years breading and raising several species, including Amphiprion Percula. I stopped counting how many when I passed 1K. 

I stand by my opinion as it's based on a little more than my home experience. A healthy captive bread fish was always much hardier than a wild caught fish, even those that were properly quarantined, when added to community tanks that were mixed captive and wild.

 

[mcarroll]

22 hours ago, KC2020 said:

A healthy captive bread fish was always much hardier than a wild caught fish, even those that were properly quarantined, when added to community tanks that were mixed captive and wild.

If I'm interpreting correctly, I think we more or less agree on all that....once the major stress of shipping and handling are behind them, the fishes' immune systems can recover.

 

Where issues are likely to arise is mixing wild/captive at the store (also possibly in QT).  Just as was stated earlier, it's clear wild and captive don't carry the same diseases...and therefor don't carry the same disease resistances.  And since at the store (or in QT) they are usually fresh out of shipping, either one are probably at their most susceptible to any new (novel) pathogen.

 

Nothing is guaranteed in life, certainly nothing I've written. 😉 So I'm glad if you didn't experience any issues with wilds and captives...you'll have to trust that I (like you, I assume) have no reason to make up a story about this.  😎   I'd write something WAY more entertaining if I had any gearing to write fiction. 😂 🦄🧟‍♂️🧚🏿🐲 (<- that's about as good as it gets)

[KC2020]

22 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

 And since at the store (or in QT) they are usually fresh out of shipping, either one are probably at their most susceptible to any new (novel) pathogen.

Back in the late 80's when you walked into Quality Marine in L.A. it was like a very large LFS except everything had just come off a cargo plane from wherever it had been collected. Survival rates were horrific and there was no real quarantine. All the wholesalers had several multi-tank systems with 6' tall skimmers and they did large water changes to try and limit what was transmitted from each shipment to the next but was about it for preventative measures. NO UV, no drying and bleaching a system unless they'd had a major crash. Today they don't let you in, your order online and then pick up from a loading dock. It certainly doesn't instill trust when they don't let you inside.