All for reef?

[TheKleinReef]

13 hours ago, Staticmoves said:

Would you mind sharing the details on this….

or post a link to a past thread on the event.

always nice to hear all sides on the experiences.

my tank has a super weird bacteria:alk relationship. even without AFR sways in nutrients also affect my alk.

a few years ago something triggered a hault in growth (i think this was bad salt from tropic marin), and i noticed alk climbing, so i turned off the doser for AFR. but the alk continued to climb from 8 to nearly 13dkh. I think if i wasn't using AFR the alk wouldn't have kept climbing and the tank might have been saved.

 

no one has ever been able to give me a good explanation. Everything died and AFR went in the trash along with that salt.

[Sprinter70]

9 hours ago, Staticmoves said:

Fair enough. 
how often do you find yourself dosing for mag.

It’ll depend on your tank size and livestock density and rate of growth and the product you use. I’d recommend testing your magnesium and read the product label for raising you magnesium as needed!

[Sprinter70]

7 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

my tank has a super weird bacteria:alk relationship. even without AFR sways in nutrients also affect my alk.

a few years ago something triggered a hault in growth (i think this was bad salt from tropic marin), and i noticed alk climbing, so i turned off the doser for AFR. but the alk continued to climb from 8 to nearly 13dkh. I think if i wasn't using AFR the alk wouldn't have kept climbing and the tank might have been saved.

 

no one has ever been able to give me a good explanation. Everything died and AFR went in the trash along with that salt.

AFR is a delayed alk increase, it takes some time for the alkalinity to increase after dosing. This makes it slightly harder to dose, but less dangerous if you were to overdose it since you can just do a few large water changes over a couple days. Depending on how long you waited to test after you stopped dosing, I suspect you still had the AFR breaking down and raising your alkalinity.

[Staticmoves]

19 minutes ago, Sprinter70 said:

AFR is a delayed alk increase, it takes some time for the alkalinity to increase after dosing. This makes it slightly harder to dose, but less dangerous if you were to overdose it since you can just do a few large water changes over a couple days. Depending on how long you waited to test after you stopped dosing, I suspect you still had the AFR breaking down and raising your alkalinity.

I’ve heard a bit about this delayed release of alk with AFR.

how delayed are we talking.

this would be different from tank to tank, but what is the general consensus on delay.

anyone experience these spikes on a slow and steady pace, or user error on start of use in the first week or so?

[TheKleinReef]

1 hour ago, Sprinter70 said:

AFR is a delayed alk increase, it takes some time for the alkalinity to increase after dosing. This makes it slightly harder to dose, but less dangerous if you were to overdose it since you can just do a few large water changes over a couple days. Depending on how long you waited to test after you stopped dosing, I suspect you still had the AFR breaking down and raising your alkalinity.

 

that delay is why i scrapped it. I did a few water changes in the mean time but nothing really stopped the climb. to this day i'm not sure what exactly happened.

 

but imo that delayed effect is a gamble and not worth it. two part is easier and i'd argue safer as well.

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

59 minutes ago, Staticmoves said:

I’ve heard a bit about this delayed release of alk with AFR.

how delayed are we talking.

this would be different from tank to tank, but what is the general consensus on delay.

anyone experience these spikes on a slow and steady pace, or user error on start of use in the first week or so?

 

a lot of what i found was that the calcium formate should break down in a matter of hours. but that depends on the bacterial efficiency i think. my tank has a whack bacterial balance and i'm sure that's why i had such a poor experience.

[Staticmoves]

1 hour ago, TheKleinReef said:

 

a lot of what i found was that the calcium formate should break down in a matter of hours. but that depends on the bacterial efficiency i think. my tank has a whack bacterial balance and i'm sure that's why i had such a poor experience.

Great information.

more peace’s of the puzzle.

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/11/2023 at 6:34 AM, Staticmoves said:

I like the sound of this product.

I "lean away" from an additive like this on a new tank just because "why mess with the biology" at this stage of development?  It seems ill-advised to me, especially in the modern era where starting with dead rock is the norm.

 

But if you're not on the fence about that, then I don't see a significant difference between (eg) vinegar+kalkwasser and AFR dosing....or other all-in-one products, for that matter.  

 

I have gone the "one part" dosing route a few times over the years....mostly Brightwell Elemental (or Liquid Reef) and kalk+vinegar.  I found all of them to be effective, as verified by test results.  But "two part" dosing is my personal favorite....ESV if possible, but I can be flexible on that.  And honestly I've done DIY two-part (Recipe #2) far more than anything else....but only due to cost.

 

I don't see AFR as any kind of holy grail (I note that Tropic Marin has not discontinued their other dosing products), but it is different and I'm sure it's right for some people and some situations.  That could be you!  🙂 

[Rhetoric]

Ive got some thoughts on AFR, been thinking about this post all week.

 

Been running AFR for right around 8 months (Beginning of April) and chose it because I'm a lazy reefer.  I don't really  want to chase numbers.

 

In the beginning my consumption of alk/cal was low based on corals demands.  It took a few months but eventually it did a great job of just keeping things nice and level on alk and calc. It never kept the mag stable always declined and needed individual adjustments.

 

In the last 6 weeks the tank has officially hit growth mode (and fully stocked)!  Consumption is at an all time high and I'm having trouble keeping alk up because everytime I bump the AFR dosage it pushes Calc to 450.  I'm not really interested in going above 450 on calc. (my AFR nfluencer is a LFS, that always said dose AFR based on calc)

 

The top chart is my Calc and bottom is Alk.  Calc goes up while alk goes down. Currently Calc @ 430 - Alk @ 6.8 

 

I stopped adjusting my Mag awhile back (ran out if additive and didn't rebuy) and the mag stabled off at 1100. I was kinda okay with this number because I don't want to chase.

 

 I'm now finding myself in the process of bring the mag back up to a target 1350ish. I hope it helps keep the alk climb higher over all.

 

A lot to un-pack here.

 

For a guy that doesn't want to chase numbers, I feel like I'm driving a race car right now regarding alk/calk/mag.  Might be the learning curve of a smaller tank full of coral.  It might be I let the mag get to low and it's messing with overall AFR performance?  Honestly I don't know.

 

I will see where it all falls in the next 30-60 days.  I've been researching alternatives to AFR quite a bit.  If I have to keep tweeking numbers I might as well get the benefits of dosing Kalk and working on some kind of 2part system with better control of the individual numbers.

 

I'm still cheering for AFR for a few reason

1. I want it to be simple (I can add mag if that's what it takes)

2. I'm cheap and don't want to buy more "additives and dosers"

3. Its worked well in the past and honestly want it to be a success story.

 

Long post sorry, needed to get all that off my chest.  Was going to put it in my journal but I'd like to hear anyone's thought on my current approach.

 

 

 

[Staticmoves]

1 hour ago, Rhetoric said:

Ive got some thoughts on AFR, been thinking about this post all week.

 

Been running AFR for right around 8 months (Beginning of April) and chose it because I'm a lazy reefer.  I don't really  want to chase numbers.

 

In the beginning my consumption of alk/cal was low based on corals demands.  It took a few months but eventually it did a great job of just keeping things nice and level on alk and calc. It never kept the mag stable always declined and needed individual adjustments.

 

In the last 6 weeks the tank has officially hit growth mode (and fully stocked)!  Consumption is at an all time high and I'm having trouble keeping alk up because everytime I bump the AFR dosage it pushes Calc to 450.  I'm not really interested in going above 450 on calc. (my AFR nfluencer is a LFS, that always said dose AFR based on calc)

 

The top chart is my Calc and bottom is Alk.  Calc goes up while alk goes down. Currently Calc @ 430 - Alk @ 6.8 

 

I stopped adjusting my Mag awhile back (ran out if additive and didn't rebuy) and the mag stabled off at 1100. I was kinda okay with this number because I don't want to chase.

 

 I'm now finding myself in the process of bring the mag back up to a target 1350ish. I hope it helps keep the alk climb higher over all.

 

A lot to un-pack here.

 

For a guy that doesn't want to chase numbers, I feel like I'm driving a race car right now regarding alk/calk/mag.  Might be the learning curve of a smaller tank full of coral.  It might be I let the mag get to low and it's messing with overall AFR performance?  Honestly I don't know.

 

I will see where it all falls in the next 30-60 days.  I've been researching alternatives to AFR quite a bit.  If I have to keep tweeking numbers I might as well get the benefits of dosing Kalk and working on some kind of 2part system with better control of the individual numbers.

 

I'm still cheering for AFR for a few reason

1. I want it to be simple (I can add mag if that's what it takes)

2. I'm cheap and don't want to buy more "additives and dosers"

3. Its worked well in the past and honestly want it to be a success story.

 

Long post sorry, needed to get all that off my chest.  Was going to put it in my journal but I'd like to hear anyone's thought on my current approach.

 

 

 

With the wonderfully detailed post, your going to get some great detailed responses shortly I’ sure.

I’m no chemist, but that low mag is going to mess with your cal / alk level stability.

Paste the following in your browser and check it out, great workshop, yes it is from Tropic Marin but great info.

 

Calcium & Alkalinity Supplementation, Tropic Marin’s Carbon Dosing System. Lou Ekus MACNA 2022

[Rhetoric]

2 hours ago, Staticmoves said:

With the wonderfully detailed post, your going to get some great detailed responses shortly I’ sure.

I’m no chemist, but that low mag is going to mess with your cal / alk level stability.

Paste the following in your browser and check it out, great workshop, yes it is from Tropic Marin but great info.

 

Calcium & Alkalinity Supplementation, Tropic Marin’s Carbon Dosing System. Lou Ekus MACNA 2022

Was an interesting watch forsure with a lot of good info.

 

 It was interesting how he mentioned Magnesium effecting the alk/calk balance with the baller method and 2 part but never circles back to it with all for reef.

 

 

[Staticmoves]

9 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

Was an interesting watch forsure with a lot of good info.

 

 It was interesting how he mentioned Magnesium effecting the alk/calk balance with the baller method and 2 part but never circles back to it with all for reef.

 

 

I’ll have to watch again, but I thought he did mention still keeping an eye on your mag, and raising if need be.

as many cal or alk issues can be neglected mag levels.

and different tanks all have unique demands.

glad you enjoyed, I thought it was great, and relatively laymen terms, cartoons and all……😎

[mcarroll]

On 12/16/2023 at 2:44 PM, Rhetoric said:

my AFR nfluencer is a LFS, that always said dose AFR based on calc

Not bad advice, but possibly they left you hanging if they didn't explain it.

 

Two things:

 

1) From the AFR Instructions (on the website, but hopefully also on your bottle):

Quote

Before starting use of Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef as a supplement for your aquarium, it is recommended to adjust your systems calcium, alkalinity and magnesium to your desired values.

So you are expected to balance the tank's "off" parameters without the use of this product.  (Makes sense for what the product is.)

 

2) You can ask why the LFS says this so they can answer for themselves – it's good to know why we do what we do.  But to me at least, "test for calcium" sounds like (good) advice that's commonly given to newbs when their tank is just getting started, when alkalinity changes are VERY hard to detect with our test kits.

 

Focusing on calcium is not "better" per se, though...as calcium levels are relatively unimportant.  You are using calcium tests as an "indicator" of probable alkalinity changes that relate to coral growth.  Alkalinity levels are more important than calcium levels for a variety of reasons.

 

IMO the better advice is to dose based on alkalinity levels, and just let water changes do most of the work until alkalinity changes can be detected on our test kits.  This is a solid strategy in most cases.

 

Certainly at the stage where your tank apparently is, you should be following alkalinity as the "anchor" parameter.  

 

IMO, you will not get away from having to make some spot doses for Ca and Mg every so often though....and from the sound of it you may have to take some action to balance all three – ca, alk, and mg – before you get "expected" results from AFR again.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 2:44 PM, Rhetoric said:

If I have to keep tweeking numbers I might as well get the benefits of dosing Kalk and working on some kind of 2part system with better control of the individual numbers.

You'll at least need to keep some chemicals around for adjusting ca, alk and mg individually, even if those aren't your primary dosing checmicals.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 2:44 PM, Rhetoric said:

I'm still cheering for AFR for a few reason

1. I want it to be simple (I can add mag if that's what it takes)

2. I'm cheap and don't want to buy more "additives and dosers"

3. Its worked well in the past and honestly want it to be a success story.

I'm not sure this is the right product if you're serious about that list.

 

1) It's simple in theory...but here you are with post.   That's not a pro or con, but worth noting IMO.

2) You're in the wrong ballpark for cheap. 😉  Cheap is DIY two part via low-end 3+ head doser.  It's a tried and true combo, but no more "perfect" than any other way of dosing.  Its strength is that it's CHEAP.  Pretty sure nothing else even comes close....not even plain kalk.  DIY Recipe #2 is the way to go if you try it as it will be easier on the tank's pH level.  Worth reading up on if you don't already know about it.

3) As the saying goes past isn't prologue.  But I think your main problem with AFR is that you want it to do more than it (or maybe anything) can – expectations.  As time goes on, you need to make specific chemistry adjustments to assure ca, alk and mg are balanced before using AFR.   In the beginning, things were already balanced nicely....which was easier to accomplish with lower demands. 

 

IMO, see how things go for a while after you get ca, alk and mg balanced again – either by dosing individual chems or via water changes, or both.   If you're still not liking it, there are plenty of other options.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 6:22 PM, Rhetoric said:

It was interesting how he mentioned Magnesium effecting the alk/calk balance with the baller method and 2 part but never circles back to it with all for reef.

This relates to the supersaturated state of seawater, not to any particular dosing scheme.

 

Just for one example, here's a good article that addresses supersaturation for your context (see the section on Mg dosing):

The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners,Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented

 

(That whole series of articles is worth digesting if they are new to you. LOTS of great chemistry articles on that site.)

[JavaJacketOC]

Just getting back into a reef tank after about 5 years and this product sounds like a dream. My last tank was 100g total volume, sps heavy and dosing was a constant challenge to measure everything and try to keep it steady. I know that's part of a reef tank, especially SPS dominant but the idea of being able to dose 1 product is magical. Once I get to the point of having to dose on my new tank, I will be going this route.

[Staticmoves]

7 hours ago, JavaJacketOC said:

Just getting back into a reef tank after about 5 years and this product sounds like a dream. My last tank was 100g total volume, sps heavy and dosing was a constant challenge to measure everything and try to keep it steady. I know that's part of a reef tank, especially SPS dominant but the idea of being able to dose 1 product is magical. Once I get to the point of having to dose on my new tank, I will be going this route.

I like the potential simplicity of dosing this one product, and I am going to use it.

but will have some two part on hand for manual adjustments at the start and along the way.

@mcarroll has some sound points and advice above.

months away from finding out first hand.

keep us posted on your experience with AFR………

and I’ll do like wise.

 

[Rhetoric]

20 hours ago, mcarroll said:

1) It's simple in theory...but here you are with post.   That's not a pro or con, but worth noting IMO.

This made me laugh. 😀

[Staticmoves]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:45 PM, mcarroll said:

I "lean away" from an additive like this on a new tank just because "why mess with the biology" at this stage of development?  It seems ill-advised to me, especially in the modern era where starting with dead rock is the norm.

 

But if you're not on the fence about that, then I don't see a significant difference between (eg) vinegar+kalkwasser and AFR dosing....or other all-in-one products, for that matter.  

 

I have gone the "one part" dosing route a few times over the years....mostly Brightwell Elemental (or Liquid Reef) and kalk+vinegar.  I found all of them to be effective, as verified by test results.  But "two part" dosing is my personal favorite....ESV if possible, but I can be flexible on that.  And honestly I've done DIY two-part (Recipe #2) far more than anything else....but only due to cost.

 

I don't see AFR as any kind of holy grail (I note that Tropic Marin has not discontinued their other dosing products), but it is different and I'm sure it's right for some people and some situations.  That could be you!  🙂 

Stay tuned and we will see in a year how things are going.

I am trying to study this product well and avoid the “spray and pray” method.

a lot of good info popping up in the thread.

with enough successes and failures shared you can start compiling the bases to study.