Improving Water Parameters: Seeking Tips and Advice

[RickvD]

Hello,

I'd like to seek advice on improving my water parameters. Over the past 6-7 months since starting my tank, I've struggled to achieve stability.

I perform 10% weekly water changes using the Red Sea Blue bucket. While my parameters are generally not bad, most nutrients are on the low side, and I'm struggling to lower my nitrate levels. Some corals are thriving, while others are merely surviving.

Parameters one hour after a water change:

• Alkalinity: 8.8
• Magnesium: 1230
• pH: 8.3
• Calcium: 435
• Nitrate: 25-50 (Salifert)
• Ammonia: Not detected
• Phosphate: 0.061 (Hanna ULR)

 

Nitrate:

I can't seem to bring my nitrates down despite various attempts. I've tried feeding less, changing filter floss more frequently, dosing phosphates, and cleaning all AIO chambers regularly. Nitrates drop after a water change but bounce back within a day. Before water changes, I sift the sand, use a skimmer, and have ample rock. I've tried different types of food. Considering trying the bag of bio balls that came with the tank. Is it worth a shot?

 

Phosphate:

I've posted about this before, but I can't pinpoint the issue. My tank suffered when phosphates were at zero. I bought a Hanna checker and phosphate dosing, testing daily for the first two months and dosing up to 0.1. After calculating the average, I started dosing accordingly. However, my tank's phosphate usage fluctuates, resulting in levels ranging from 0.01 to 0.2. I want to automate dosing as I'm not home daily, and daily testing with the Hanna is becoming costly. Tried dosing 0.02 daily, and it kept rising until it reached 0.1 after a week. Stopped for two days, and it dropped back to 0.02. Can't find a stable average to dose without it skyrocketing when I stop. Need help figuring this out.

[Koleswrath]

You have a young tank that is going to go through various stages of growth and competition between various organisms which will use nutrients differently but you seem to be on the right track with monitoring and adjusting to these changes. Is there a specific symptom you're seeing from your levels? Corals merely "surviving" - what's the specific issue you're seeing?

 

High nitrate won't be helped with bio balls. Water changes will reduce it by the % you change, eg. change 50% of your water and your nitrate will be diluted by 50%. Changing your filter floss every 3 days like clockwork will also help.

What food are you feeding? Do you have a high bio load? Missing snails or fish? These are sources of Nitrate you'll want to think about. 

 

As for the Phosphate, if you're bottoming out I assume you started with dry rock. It will bind Phosphate until it's in equilibrium with the water. I'd keep dosing a small amount daily and dose your water changes so they don't drop the phosphate levels.  Eventually your rock and sand will become balanced with the phosphate in the water and you can start to drop the amount dosed. When you have a high coral load taking up the amount of phosphate from your food additions you may need to start dosing again. Algae growth can also deplete phosphate so keep that in mind. 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:19 AM, RickvD said:

I perform 10% weekly water changes using the Red Sea Blue bucket.

If it's messing with your nutrient levels (ie by spiking phosphates too low, near-zero) then this water change schedule might be too aggressive.  

 

Consider only doing a water change when phosphates is high enough to allow it....maybe when phosphates are >0.25 ppm or something fairly generous.  My guess is that when phosphates become consistently available, nitrogen uptake will be higher....which in turn should lower nitrate levels, at least in the long run.

 

It probably will help to remind yourself, that nitrate levels like these are OK.   What's not great is to have nitrate very out of balance with phosphates, where phosphates are potentially unavailable.  Corals HATE that...and it can be very harmful to them if the condition persists for long.

 

On 12/4/2023 at 8:19 AM, RickvD said:

I've tried feeding less, changing filter floss more frequently, dosing phosphates, and cleaning all AIO chambers regularly.

Feeding less isn't the answer since that ALSO lowers your phosphate inputs to the tank.  Your fish should be well fed – just make sure you aren't overfeeding so that food ends up in the sand or rocks or in the tank's filtration.

 

Using filter floss can trap food and actually cause nutrient issues like this....IMO I'd cease using it.  If you continue (might be necessary for your tank design...I dunno), make sure it's kept clean on a weekly or even daily basis.  If it's brown and nasty when you check it, then you waited too long.

 

I wonder if your need to dose PO4 will shrink (or vanish) if you stop doing water changes?

 

BTW, what kind of foods are you feeding?

 

On 12/4/2023 at 8:19 AM, RickvD said:

Tried dosing 0.02 daily, and it kept rising until it reached 0.1 after a week. Stopped for two days, and it dropped back to 0.02.

FYI, there's nothing wrong with dosing the tank as high as it needs to be so that it won't drop "too far" while you're out.  Target 0.50 ppm (or even higher) with your dosing if it keeps the tank from hitting near 0.00 ppm.   That gives you room to figure out the variations without subjecting the tank to near-zero P conditions anymore.

 

Honestly, even in tanks with a major dino bloom where N and P consumption skyrockets, I've never seen a tank need more than 0.30 ppm to begin stabilizing.

 

How is your tank's green algae growth?   Can you post a current full tank shot?

[RickvD]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I wonder if your need to dose PO4 will shrink (or vanish) if you stop doing water changes?

It sadly doesn't... If I don't dose it every day, it becomes 0 very fast. I wanted to test something so I skipped a week, but daily dosing was still necessary. I'd like to have mine at least 0,05, but that sadly doesn't seem to happen.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Using filter floss can trap food and actually cause nutrient issues like this....IMO I'd cease using it.  If you continue (might be necessary for your tank design...I dunno), make sure it's kept clean on a weekly or even daily basis.  If it's brown and nasty when you check it, then you waited too long.

It's an AIO so filter floss is the easiest to maintain. I change if every other day.

 

Something I'm thinking about is Dino's. I had them a while back because my Phosphates were bottomed out for a long time. Since last week they were back and they came back fast. I now got a UV to get rid of them for good. Maybe they were never really gone? Just out of sight? That they kept draining my Phosphates? Is that even possible? Having Phosphate draining Dino's for 2 months without noticing them?

My tank had quite the shock but the dino's are almost completely gone. After that I'm planning on fine tuning my flow cause I think there might be just to much detritus ending up in the sand. I really hope that will finally get my Phosphate/Nitrate in balance after almost a year. My zoa garden is growing like crazy. I can practically see them double every few days. My hammer is also doing fine. My Acan and Meteor Shower sadly aren't. But I don't think that is just a Nitrate issue.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, RickvD said:

Something I'm thinking about is Dino's. I had them a while back because my Phosphates were bottomed out for a long time. Since last week they were back and they came back fast. I now got a UV to get rid of them for good. Maybe they were never really gone? Just out of sight? That they kept draining my Phosphates? Is that even possible? Having Phosphate draining Dino's for 2 months without noticing them?

I'm generally in the "anything is possible" crowd.   While I'd say it's (quite) unusual to see the effect you appear to be seeing without a full on bloom, the explanation does fit your symptoms, if not your whole scenario.  The resurgence of the bloom "recently" would also seem to suggest this.  Still a little puzzling.  But here's the main thrust of why this is probably what's happening...

 

As generations of dino's grow and die in the tank, their chitin-based "armor plating" (called theca) accumulates in the system.  This "armor" has something like a 5000:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio, in terms of bacterial breakdown.   So it fuels massive bacterial population booms and that bacterial bloom is what puts the heavy demand on N and P that can drive levels to zero.  (Only bacteria will generally drive levels so close to actual zero.) Check out "The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate" for more info.

 

Sounds like you've already been pretty thorough in your "post-dino" tank cleanups, but is there any chance the rock and or sand and or something else within the system could be harboring a lot of dino detritus?  (dig for it in a few strategic areas...if your sand is clean, only pure-white aragonite particles will get stirred up.  Anything tan/brown is detritus. 

 

7 hours ago, RickvD said:

But I don't think that is just a Nitrate issue.

Definitely not a nitrate issue...there is no nitrate issue.  If anything, intermittent phosphate issues.

 

How has the recovery of other algae been lately?   Any good green algae or coralline seem to be blooming?

[RickvD]

53 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

The resurgence of the bloom "recently" would also seem to suggest this.

Thats what I thought… Long period of bottomed out Phosphates which lead to Dino’s. I started dosing phosphates and after less then a week the dino’s were gone. I continu to dose phosphates for months and no matter how much I add it doesn’t seem enough. Then boom, in the matter of 3 days everything is covered in dinos while my phosphates are definitly not zero.

 

53 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Sounds like you've already been pretty thorough in your "post-dino" tank cleanups, but is there any chance the rock and or sand and or something else within the system could be harboring a lot of dino detritus?

At this moment, yes. I have cleaned some water and equipment but I have not cleaned the sand yet. The UV is currently on for 1 hour each night, and when that is removed and the normal plumbing is getting put back, then I will clean all AIO chambers which might have some detritus on the bottom (also waiting on a new and better pump). Before every water change I use a turkey baster to sift all the sand, then wait 5 minutes and remove 10% of the water. I think it also has something to do with my flow. The way it is setup now, my zoas are happy and growing at an extremely fast rate, but the amount of detritus that still comes up every week is more then I’d like. I’m currently waiting for the AI Axis pump to be available in the Netherlands (currently on preorder, expected to get shipped out somewhere this week) so I can fine tune the flow. I think I got my stock return pump to low, and my Nero 3 in the wrong spot.

 

56 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

How has the recovery of other algae been lately?   Any good green algae or coralline seem to be blooming?

I always have some green algae growth on the glass which I scrape off once a week. After the first time I “beat” dino’s and started dosing phosphates, I started to see some Coraline growth. After a while it sort of stopped. It didn’t become more and it didn’t become less. My Nero is covered, so are parts of my rock. Since yesterday (first day after using UV which rapidly removed the amount of dino’s) I have bright red Coraline on the rocks. It looks amazing and is really encrusted on there.

 

 

[RickvD]

@mcarroll Just checked my tank. I tested my Phosphates and for the first time ever, it increased with 0,01. Still not all corals have opened. I hope they will over the next few days… They are probably still a bit pissed off. Tomorrow I’m going to do a full test so I can check all my parameters. But for now everything seems to be going good.

[RickvD]

Now that my UV is doing its job, the dinos have disappeared rapidly. My water parameters have never been better, and despite being on the lower side previously (except for nitrate), they now feel significantly more stabilized, even four days after the last water change.

• Alkalinity (Alk): 10.9
• Magnesium (Mag): 1350
• pH: 8.3
• Calcium (Cal): 460
• Nitrate: 10
• Ammonia: 0
• Phosphate: 0.064

I have a few concerns about three specific corals:

 

Zoas: Previously, my zoa garden was always completely open and growing rapidly. Since the dinos disappeared, some parts still won't open. While I understand it's only been a few days since the dinos vanished, and some zoas opened up quickly, I'm concerned that there might be another issue bothering them. I haven't made any changes to the lighting or wavemaker. The only difference is the return nozzle, which is slightly altered. However, judging by my rockscape, I don't think the return nozzle flow even reaches the zoas. Should I give them more time, or is there something else I should consider?

 

Acan: I have one Acan coral that isn't doing well. Initially placed on the sand in various spots with different flow levels (60-100 PAR), a few days ago, I started noticing its skeleton. I even found a single small head elsewhere in the sand. I've now relocated it under another rock with even less light. Could the flow be too much, even though it seems to be fully open?

IMG_5789.MOV

 

This was my Acan when I got it....

 

 

Cyphastrea: My meteor shower Cyphastrea is deteriorating rapidly. When I acquired it, the rock it came on was fully covered, and the entire coral was opening. Now, the coral is almost gone, with more of the rock visible than the coral, and it never opens. Despite trying different spots and flow levels on the sand, it continues to decline. I'm eager to save it; any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, RickvD said:

I have a few concerns about three specific corals:

 

Zoas: 

One of the most temperamental corals IMO.  I think if you make the others happy you won't have to worry about them?  Someone else may have a better idea.

 

1 hour ago, RickvD said:

Acan: 

1 hour ago, RickvD said:

Cyphastrea:

Corals take a hit when nutrients bottom out repeatedly, and the damage seems to be additive as well, so minor incidents add up.  It's possible that once you finally get nutrient levels locked down that you'll see "damage trends" continue for up to a month before there's a turnaround.  So in this kind of scenario, it's possible that a coral can already be a goner even though by appearance it seems to be holding on.

 

Check out the photos on this article....you can see the effect that low-P has on coral physiology at all levels: 

"Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates"

 

Once they are too damaged, recovery becomes impossible...that's when you see tissue recession/necrosis.

 

Something you could try is running a Poly Filter pad (by Poly Bio Marine) as a screen for contaminants.   ICP testing would also work, but costs more.  My guess is that nothing will be turned up, but you never know I guess.  👍

[RickvD]

19 hours ago, mcarroll said:

One of the most temperamental corals IMO.  I think if you make the others happy you won't have to worry about them?  Someone else may have a better idea.

Haha alright. I think I might have messed up the flow a bit. Tomorrow I’m removing the UV and doing another small waterchange just to be sure there aren’t any more dino toxins messing with the dino’s.

 

It would suck to lose the Acan and Meteor shower, but I mostly hope my zoa’s pull through. I have seen so much growth and development in them…

 

Acans are hella expensive so saving all would be ideal, but I’m most concerned about the zoas…