Bryopsis with livestock in tank

[phinatic]

I have a nasty invasion of bryopsis. I think it came in on a plating monty frag. I have been manually removing it and loading the tank with hermits and cerith snails. No luck. I am now considering a sea hare or tuxedo urchin to aid in removal. I have also considered Fluconozol, but am concerned for my BTAs and SPS. Any advice? Thanks.

[phinatic]

I am also consider lettuce nudibranchs or boosting magnesium levels. I have been boosting Mg for the past week with the goal of getting it to 1800 and keeping it there for 3 weeks. I have read that this will kill off bryopsis, but the feedback was mostly around using Kent Marine TechM which I don't have access to.

[mcarroll]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:40 AM, phinatic said:

I have a nasty invasion of bryopsis. I think it came in on a plating monty frag.

Pics of the tank and the algae along with water test results would help us – along with a reminder on tank size.  🙂   There's always a reason for an algae outbreak.  You bringing it in is one thing....but why is it spreading?

 

On 9/27/2023 at 3:40 AM, phinatic said:

I have been manually removing it and loading the tank with hermits and cerith snails.

How you remove it manually matters – what has been your approach?  Larger snails might help more than adding more smaller ones...but also, what are your total numbers and tank concentration?   "Up to 2 turbo snails per gallon" or equivalent might be required in extreme cases.  (Most cases aren't extreme.)   Do you think you're close to that number?

 

On 9/27/2023 at 3:40 AM, phinatic said:

I have also considered Fluconozol, but am concerned for my BTAs and SPS. Any advice? Thanks.

I don't see how that treatment is justified at all.  Your concern is more than valid.  It's an algae outbreak in a reef tank, not a life threatening situation.  And when the treatment stops, it's likely that the algae (or another algae) will quickly return.  You don't have to read up on fluconazole much to see the high number of folks who've treated their tanks multiple times to see that it's not a real cure.  (It's not something that can be "cured".  It's algae on a reef.)

 

On 9/27/2023 at 4:19 AM, phinatic said:

I am also consider lettuce nudibranchs or boosting magnesium levels.

Nudibranchs are sure to starve after the job is done....and that's IF they do it.   Read up on the success rate with them – it's not encouraging.

 

And Kent Tech-M was the only "magnesium treatment" that ever worked.  Once it was reformulated so that it contained what it was supposed to contain, it stopped working as an algicide 🤨🤷‍♂️....and that was a long time back now.  There was speculation, but as far as I know nobody was able to pinpoint what "impurity" was responsible for algae suppression.

 

So much for magic bullets. 😉

 

CUC rules!  📣  You (the #1 CUC) and your pack of snails will do it....a little more elbow grease is all!  😓💪   That's how the wild reefs do it, so may as well model that.

 

(Post us up on details and photos too....again, there's a reason the algae was able to spread and become a problem.)

[phinatic]

Temperature	Salinity	pH	Alk ppm	Ammonia	Nitrite	Nitrate	Phosphate	Ca ppm	Magnesium
78.0	1.024	7.8	179.0	0.0	0.0	0	0.0	400	1150

 

The first time I saw it was on that frag, but it really took off after I removed my refugium. The refugium was just causing too much of a mess in the rear of my AIO. It's not large enough back there to clean and maintain a fuge. Tank is 13.5gal and I have about 1 snail and 1 hermit per gallon. For removal, I pluck it once it's long enough to get hold of it. It can't be grabbed when it is short. It is strongly rooted to the rocks. You can see the tufts of algae on the rocks. Its worst against the wall of the AIO. I can't get a photo of it, but a close look shows it is very fern like and branching.

 

 

[jservedio]

That's not bad at all and won't be too difficult to take care of. Get a cup of tap water like 2/3 filled up and start pulling it out with your fingertips. Put any pulled algae into the cup by dipping your fingers in. Turbos won't touch it while it's all long and hairy, but when you pull it they'll eat the holdfasts and the short hair that you can't get with your fingers. I'd probably toss 2-3 big turbos in there and be pulling it manually every other day. It'll be gone before you know it. Don't use a toothbrush or anything like that, it'll just make a mess.

 

When you pull out a bunch of algae, plop a turbo directly on top where it used to be and it'll clean up. Keep your flow up and keep some floss in the filter to mop up any little bits that break off.

[phinatic]

Thanks. I've been pulling this stuff for about a month and it seems to just be spreading. I have read in some other places that pulling it will do this as the bryopsis spores move around the tank and colonize new areas when you pull it.

[jservedio]

21 minutes ago, phinatic said:

Thanks. I've been pulling this stuff for about a month and it seems to just be spreading. I have read in some other places that pulling it will do this as the bryopsis spores move around the tank and colonize new areas when you pull it.

It'll spread whether you are pulling it or not. If you don't have anything that will eat what's left over after you manually pull it, it'll never be gone and I've never seen a cerith touch it and neither will hermits - you may see hermits pick in it and appear to be eating it, but they are looking for bits of food trapped in it since it's great at trapping detritus. Only thing I know of for certain that eats it are bigger turbo snails.

[phinatic]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:40 PM, mcarroll said:

Nudibranchs are sure to starve after the job is done....and that's IF they do it.

Why would nudibranchs starve while snails would not? They are both herbivores. If they are heavier eaters, wouldn't I just get fewer of them?

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, phinatic said:

Why would nudibranchs starve while snails would not? They are both herbivores. If they are heavier eaters, wouldn't I just get fewer of them?

(Actually, I just discovered they aren't technically Nudibhanchs...but Sacoglossans.   That is definitely a good distinction in the favor of trying one out, but still doesn't change the overall story much....tell me what you think...)

 

Even little ones are usually *much larger* than most snails – with an appetite to match.  Unfortunately, bigger critters more or less naturally starve first when food supply dwindles.

 

Worse, they are much pickier (actually more specialized) than snails – that specialization is, paradoxically, the main reason we'd want to use them.  So when the green algae is gone, they won't forage other things.   Some types don't actually eat the algae, either...maybe leaving algae rootlets to re-grow.

 

On the other hand...

 

Snails seem to consume all periphyton, not just green algae, so will not starve in a reef tank if you keep their numbers appropriate – which is not that hard given their smaller size range.  Overall it is much easier to meet their long term demands compared with a Nudibranch. 👍

 

If your reef ALWAYS had a hair algae bloom going on SOMEWHERE, then the Nudi's might be fine.  In the wild this is a reasonable scenario.  But not something most folks would replicate on purpose in their reef tank.  (Not that it's never been done....some tanks have been designed with shallow or even exposed zones where algae might grow quite a bit and all the time.  But that's definitely not your average reef.)

 

I wonder if something the scale of the Long Island Aquarium's reef could permanently support Nudi's?

 

The biggest problem with them might be their less-than-stellar record of success in actual reef tanks.  If they were a sure thing vs green algae, folks would be breeding and selling them like Berghia.  But in a reef tank they seem like a dice roll IMO.  And I've never seen anyone use a captive bred lettuce slug...

 

But there's also the fact that hair algae is only going to last through its phase in your tank, and then it will be replaced permanently by (most likely) corals or coralline algae.

 

This is why CUC member #1 (you) plus snails is the "best" solution....you handle the big stuff that's currently grown (which will eventually be nothing) and the snails handle the little stuff, algae sprouts (which is eventually all there is).  The workload for the initial algae bloom aside, it's a good arrangement. 😉 

 

...

 

Still no substitute for CUC #1, but what do you think about a small urchin?

[phinatic]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Worse, they are much pickier (actually more specialized) than snails

This is what got me looking at them. I read that they prefer bryopsis and GHA.

 

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Snails seem to consume all periphyton, not just green algae

True. I do see my ceriths eat everything except the bryopsis

 

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Still no substitute for CUC #1, but what do you think about a small urchin?

Funny you mention it. I think I settled on a tuxedo urchin and some ninja star astrea snails. They have a few small lettuce nudibranchs. I may try one for fun and have algae pellets ready to supplement if needed. That would be a good problem to have :)

 

[phinatic]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:40 PM, mcarroll said:

And Kent Tech-M was the only "magnesium treatment" that ever worked.

I do have a little info on this point. I have been dosing Fluval Sea Magnesium (MgCl) after reading about how Mg weakens Bryopsis. This dosing has gone on for 2 weeks and my Mg was low anyway, so I didn't see the harm. I did my weekly removal today and the tufts were noticeably easier to remove. In some cases, the actual root structure came with it even though I couldn't grab it that far down the stalk. The texture also seemed much finer, so I think it may actually be helping. The algae was softer and removal was easier.

[mcarroll]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:45 PM, phinatic said:

True. I do see my ceriths eat everything except the bryopsis

I wasn't saying snails don't eat green algae.....I was saying they eat *everything*.  

 

Lettuce slugs are the ones that are limited in their diet.

 

The limitation that snails have is their small size.  

 

Once algae grows past the sprout stage, snails don't have the mouthparts capable of eating it anymore.   Which is why we need to think of snails in terms of "tank coverage".  They need to "patrol" all bare surfaces in the tank continuously for new algae sprouts.  Any one they miss grow large and becomes a problem for you to take care of – and importantly, it's the mature sprouts that SPREAD into other sprouts.  

 

In the wild there would be urchins, parrotfish and MANY other critters that might eat the mature algae.  But in a tank, essentially nothing eats mature green algae...including Bryopsis.

 

Green algae are related to one another....pretty similar in many respects.  Bryopsis is basically a beefier hair algae...very similar.  Bubble algae is also related.  Not coincidence then that these are the most common ones we see....they share a similar lifestyle.

 

19 hours ago, phinatic said:

I do have a little info on this point. I have been dosing Fluval Sea Magnesium (MgCl) after reading about how Mg weakens Bryopsis. This dosing has gone on for 2 weeks and my Mg was low anyway, so I didn't see the harm. I did my weekly removal today and the tufts were noticeably easier to remove. In some cases, the actual root structure came with it even though I couldn't grab it that far down the stalk. The texture also seemed much finer, so I think it may actually be helping. The algae was softer and removal was easier.

I'm glad you found this recent round to be easier.  But this is due to other factors.  (What else are you doing to improve conditions?)   Mg is definitively NOT related to the effect you're seeing.

 

FYI, when Tech-M was reformulated every hobbyist who was dependent on it as a "miracle cure" was trying HARD to find another magnesium supplement that had the same effect.  Folks finally had to give up the notion that somehow Mg was killing bryopsis.  (There are no miracle cures, after all.)

 

It was a silly effort since even Kent's other Mg supplement didn't have the same effect as Tech-M.  (BTW, Kent supposedly reformulated Tech-M because of international shipping requirements...the EU flagged them (or Kent knew they would be flagged) for Tech-M not containing the ingredients it was supposed to contain.   There are old Tech-M/bryopsis threads you can dig up if you want the real 411....I'm going from memory.  Nobody ever figured out the mystery ingredient though.)

 

Keep up the good work with hand-pulling – there is no substitute for elbow grease.   That said, adding a micron filter and/or UV will also help to reduce the spreading if that continues to be a problem.   Stay observant to the performance of your snails and make sure you have adequate coverage – this is the real-deal way to prevent spreading.

[mcarroll]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:45 PM, phinatic said:

I may try one for fun and have algae pellets ready to supplement if needed.

Algae pellets are unlikely to work either.....again folks would be breeding these like Berghia if it were even semi-easy to keep them....but it's not easy.

 

Captive bred slugs that could deal with 100% of algae blooms in new tanks would literally be a gold mine for whoever gets it done.  Algae has been annoying to EVERY aquarist since the beginning of time. 😉 

 

So far, no gold mine.

[phinatic]

4 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

That said, adding a micron filter and/or UV will also help to reduce the spreading if that continues to be a problem.

I already have UV and a skimmer on the tank.

 

I was basing the Mg treatment on a few articles like this. They are both advocating for Hydrat-Mg (Brightwell). Admittedly, I am dosing MgCl.

 

https://reefbuilders.com/2017/10/27/treating-bryopsis-algae-with-brightwell-aquatics-hydrat-mg/

https://www.reefhacks.com/bryopsis-fluconazole-dosage/ 

 

[mcarroll]

34 minutes ago, phinatic said:

I already have UV and a skimmer on the tank.

UV is good...is it installed in the display vs in the sump/back compartment?

 

A protein skimmer probably isn't going to help (much) directly against algae spores.  

 

A micron filter (eg Marineland's Polishing Filter, aka Magnum 200, or others) would make a good supplement to the UV though.

 

Neither filter will help with the standing crop of algae.  

 

But both will consume upwards of 99.9% of spores/propagules....so spreading could nearly (or completely) stop, which takes some demand off of your CUC too.  (No help if the crew is just too small....but might be enough to tip the balance if the CUC is almost the right size.)

 

There is an assumption with UV (and most any device) that it be sized and installed optimally.  In addition to hopefully being installed in the display tank, is your UV sized "large" relative to the tank size?  And is the flow through it relatively low, ie for max UV dose?  (A small UV unit in the sump running at "max output" might not be effective vs anything other than green water.)

 

34 minutes ago, phinatic said:

I was basing the Mg treatment on a few articles like this. They are both advocating for Hydrat-Mg (Brightwell). Admittedly, I am dosing MgCl.

 

https://reefbuilders.com/2017/10/27/treating-bryopsis-algae-with-brightwell-aquatics-hydrat-mg/

https://www.reefhacks.com/bryopsis-fluconazole-dosage/ 

 

Miracle cures are very tempting?  And it seems like everyone and their brother (and sister!) claims to "have one up their sleeve".  😉 

 

Also funny:  Brightwell is (in a nutshell) Kent's second company.  (Continuum I guess is their third?   WTF....)  I guess if anyone knows which "algae killer" they were putting in Tech-M, it wold be them.  🤷‍♂️

 

Mg Doesn't Kill Algae

You know the myth back in the Tech-M days was that it was the high Mg concentration that did it.  That was proven via experimentation to be untrue....high ppm of Magnesium doesn't seem to affect anything by itself...not even corals, let alone something tough like green algae.

 

I would encourage you to read up on those threads from the time immediately following when Tech-M reformulated....where folks were really actively trying (and failing) to duplicate its results vs algae.  Reef central, R2R and nano-reef were all around at the time as I recall, so you might find threads on any of them.

 

Unfortunately, this new product's bottle seems to carry that part of the myth forward, talking about dosing Mg over "1500 ppm as desired" or from "1500-1800 ppm".  I'm really mostly a Brightwell fan and have a long track record with some of their products....but this part of the bottle for this product is just the BEST example of...uh...mincing words for marketing: "Maintaining an elevated magnesium concentration, relative to the average natural seawater concentration, for a prolonged period of time may be of benefit to reef aquaria in certain situations, and should be attempted by experienced aquarists only."  They go on beating around the bush.  🤔😉 There must still be some labelling law that prevents them from saying it can be used as an algicide.  Of course none of the actual risks or "certain situations" they mention are discussed on the label.  🙄  The kicker (for me) is this:  "Ingredients: Purified water, hydrated chloride and sulfate salts of magnesium, proprietary ingredients".   It's easy to imagine after the other product "reveals" we've had in this area lately (the letter "V" comes to mind, right?) that "proprietary ingredients" on that label refers to something that you wouldn't put in your reef if you knew what it was.  Otherwise I suggest they'd be bragging about it rather that being so surreptitious and suggestive about the whole thing.   *Wink wink* *Nudge nudge* Say no more! 😇😉 

 

So What DOES Kill Algae?
So put another way....why not just be direct and consider using AlgaeFix if that's the direction you want to go with this algae issue?  At least AlgaeFix is what the label says it is, has a track record you can directly read up on since lots of folks have tried it, doesn't require you to jack with your water's other parameters, and you're more in control of the dosage – these are all GOOD for you.  (That's not a recommendation for AlgaeFix, BTW.)

 

Spot-treating with food-grade (high concentration) peroxide is another alternative – but less-wishy-washy – way to deal with algae.  Peroxide is a natural chemical that reefs deal with fine because it is produced all over the reef, especially anything in proximity to green algae (possible other types as well) which is omnipresent on healthy reefs – usually at every coral boundary.

 

Using antibiotics (the other option you mentioned) vs green algae is possibly the most absurd development in our hobby's history.  But we have some doozies...too many to list.  All I can say on that is No, it is not harmless like promoters like to ignorantly suggest....and that it's very likely that your algae will return even after nuking your tank with antibiotics.   Many folks who try it end up "trying it" 2-4 times before it "works"...or they give up.   Thing is...algae blooms don't last forever, they are part of the The Uglies, or new tank syndrome.  So it's hard to give any credit to the med after it's taken the amount of time for that number of re-treatments.  Other methods, or even just chance, would work about as well or better, with less negative impact and risk to your reef.

 

Fundamentals

Last thing:  Even if dealing manually with the Bryopsis is "too much" at the moment (don't believe it's impossible)....you shouldn't lose sight of the importance of fundamentals, including understanding the biology of things like green algae.  If you leave fundamental conditions favorable for algae (which is why the Bryopsis was able to get started), then once you stop a "treatment" like this, the algae (or another algae) will come back.  Tech-M does nothing for fundamentals (or possibly worse than nothing, since we don't really know why it works)...which is true for all "miracle cures".

 

FYI, there are major issues with the info in both of those links if you're using them as a main resource.  PM me if you want to get more into those articles specifically.  👍

 

[phinatic]

I think I'm good with the thread. I'm going with an urchin and a small herd of astreas. I did the Mg because I was low on it anyway based on my test. I'll probably stop once it balances out. I also removed the rock that was most infested and didn't have anemones on it. I also hand scraped all of the frag plug and snail shells that were also growing it. Lots of work, but the tank it getting cleaner.

[mcarroll]

1 minute ago, phinatic said:

Lots of work, but the tank it getting cleaner.

Nice!

 

(The payback is obviously worth the work! 🙂 )

[phinatic]

20 hours ago, mcarroll said:

In addition to hopefully being installed in the display tank, is your UV sized "large" relative to the tank size?  And is the flow through it relatively low, ie for max UV dose?

The UV is plumbed into my return pump. The return is a DC pump that I tuned for the UV exposure time. I have a separate wavemaker used to agitate the display itself, so the return pump is intended to move water for the purpose of filtration.

 

 

[phinatic]

I appreciate the feedback. I ended up getting some Ninja star astrea snails and a couple nudibranchs. So far, I am very impressed with the nudibranchs. They went straight after my bryopsis and you can clearly tell where they have been. They are even eating the longer strands. I have stopped pulling the bryopsis by hand and am going to try and let them handle it to try and find equilibrium. I have also noticed that the hermit crabs have been following the nudibranchs around, eating little bits of algae that are left, or possibly eating slime left behind. The rock is pretty clean after they pass over it and the hermits follow.

[Schön]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:40 PM, mcarroll said:

I don't see how that treatment is justified at all.  Your concern is more than valid.  It's an algae outbreak in a reef tank, not a life threatening situation.  And when the treatment stops, it's likely that the algae (or another algae) will quickly return.  You don't have to read up on fluconazole much to see the high number of folks who've treated their tanks multiple times to see that it's not a real cure.  (It's not something that can be "cured".  It's algae on a reef.)

I used fluconazole in the past with very convincing results. In my opinion, when the balance is disrupted, if you want to achieve another equilibrium position, unfortunately, you have to intervene decisively. Similar to a dino infection caused by low phosphate levels. If you simply raise the phosphate level, you will further fuel the suffering because there are only dino spores in the water. First, you need to eliminate them, and then you can increase the phosphate. Fluc not the ultimate solution, but the part of it. Based on the water parameters and the image, this system, in its current form, will unfortunately continue to struggle with ongoing algae issues. Cyano can appear at any time, and then you may indeed miss the Bryopsis.

[phinatic]

1 hour ago, Schön said:

Based on the water parameters and the image, this system, in its current form, will unfortunately continue to struggle with ongoing algae issues

What concerns you about the water parameters?

[Schön]

17 minutes ago, phinatic said:

What concerns you about the water parameters?

Nitrate and phosphate at zero levels can be achieved in two ways: either the daily input matches what the system absorbs, similar to NFSW or large matured setups, or there is no nutrient supply for the desirable bacteria and algae, allowing nutrient-poor systems to be taken over by dinos and cyanobacteria, as typical in such situations. Based on the pictures, neither the corals nor the algae growth seems to indicate significant nutrient uptake. Additionally, this type of sand bed can act as a time-delayed nuclear bomb.

[phinatic]

Update on the nudibranchs. They have quickly become one of my favorite inverts. They are so weird and they fluoresce under blue light. They have made a really good dent in the bryopsis. I have gone back to pulling some of it based on how much they are eating. I cleaned most of it out to give them a head start, and now they seem to be keeping up with the growth. They clear one end of the tank and then it grows back while they work on the other end. For stocking, it is two lettuce nudibranchs in my 13G Fluval Evo.