No coral growth, but baby snails and starfish?

[RickvD]

Hello,

I am so confused at the moment.

I have had quite a difficult time getting my tank stabilized with diatoms and low nutrients etc etc.

 

Since about 1,5 week I have started dosing Phosphates every now and then cause they keep bottoming out. I also feed AB+ to my corals. 

My SPS (Montipora) was dying, but seems to slowly come back to life (all the browning is turning back to white, however some places is really thick red, while other places there are only a few red spots, is this normal as it is slowly regaining its health? The white branch on the picture is because of a snail that just went over it.), however my zoas or hammer, none of them show any signs of growth. 

 

Since I got rid of diatoms coralline algae has been going wild, which is a good thing. A few days ago I noticed a Asterina starfish (I know they can be harmful, nothing yet luckily), and now I was feeding the tank and a baby Nassarius snail just pops up. How can my tank not be stable enough, but still stable enough?

 

 

After the last water change, I tested all my parameters, and I'm sadly not too happy with the results. It isn't terrible, but there are some things I need to work on:

• Nitrite: 0.05

• Nitrate: 50. I'm not sure why they went up like this. I think it's because of overfeeding while trying to raise my Phosphates. I will start feeding less, and with dosing Phosphates, I hope my Nitrate will lower itself.

• Magnesium: 1230. It isn't too low, but it's getting there. I will test again right before my next water change to see if it has gotten lower. If it stays at this level, it's fine, as long as it doesn't drop more.

• Calcium: 385. Same as the Magnesium. It isn't too low, but it can't get any lower.

• KH/Alk: 9.9

• Phosphate: 0.03. I can't wait until I receive my Hanna checker. My plan is to have my Phosphates at 0.1. It might be slightly on the higher side, but for my Zoanthids and Euphyllia, it won't hurt. I just hope my already dying SPS will hold on until then and not get mad, as I know they prefer lower Phosphates.

• Ammonia: 0

• pH: 7.4. Also on the low side. There are two options I can try: put in an air pump I have from my freshwater tanks or put my skimmer back in. If I'm correct, either of these options tends to cause higher pH levels.
   

The salt I use is Red Sea blue bucket. I always pre-mix 4.5 gallons and use 1.5 gallons a week for water changes. If anyone has tips to improve my parameters, every little tip is welcome!

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, RickvD said:

Phosphate: 0.03. [....] My plan is to have my Phosphates at 0.1.

PO4 returning to zero in between doses is not good – corals may eventually bleach and RTN if left subject to those conditions.

 

If your corals still appear to be going downhill, you either have to dose bigger PO4 doses, or dose more frequently to prevent that from happening.

 

The importance of this right now can't be overestimated.

 

To get a real picture of what phosphate deficiency does to a coral, check out the article, "Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates".  They show macro and micro pics of corals grown under each combination of low- and high- phosphates and nitrates.

 

If your AB+ is mostly being consumed by bacteria (mostly as a carbon and nitrogen source), then that (bacterial growth/bloom) could be the biggest drain on your phosphates.  I'd consider NOT dosing AB+ for a little while – in addition to dosing more/more often – to see how that helps.

 

7 hours ago, RickvD said:

pH: 7.4. Also on the low side.

In general, don't chase pH.  Nothing in the tank cares about it.  

 

pH is mostly a sign of atmospheric CO2 levels combined with tank alkalinity levels.  Alk is the part of pH that your corals really care about.

 

But...

 

IF atmospheric CO2 levels (in your house; in the room) are so high they can drag the tank's pH down to a problematic level (an assumption so far, not fact), YOU might be the only one in the house affected by it.  High CO2 is bad for your health.  It's mostly a fertilizer to your corals.  (Bad only if primary nutrient levels are too low and corals are starving.) 

 

A skimmer (or other aeration) might help, but not if the CO2 level in your house is the problem.  (Which, again, is really a problem for YOU not the tank.)

[Murphs_Reef]

With dosing anything I think you need to dose little and often. Phosphate as an example is best dosed as it's consumed so it never spikes or zeros.

Good call to get a more precise tester, the Hanna is quick and relatively accurate. 

 

[RickvD]

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If your corals still appear to be going downhill, you either have to dose bigger PO4 doses, or dose more frequently to prevent that from happening.

They aren’t going down hill. They are all opening great and seem happy. Just not really growing… The reason my Montipora was dying was not enough light. Since upping my schedule he is slowly getting back to health. Just didn’t expect it to take this long but I can definitely start to see progress.

 

I do want to dose Phosphates more often, but those color changing tests are so hard to read that I ordered a Hanna Checker. When that arrives I can test more accurate and I will start working on really getting my Phoshates up.

 

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If your AB+ is mostly being consumed by bacteria (mostly as a carbon and nitrogen source), then that (bacterial growth/bloom) could be the biggest drain on your phosphates.  I'd consider NOT dosing AB+ for a little while – in addition to dosing more/more often – to see how that helps.

The only algae I have is coralline algae. I started dosing AB+ not too long ago, and I spot feed it onto the corals.

 

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

A skimmer (or other aeration) might help, but not if the CO2 level in your house is the problem.  (Which, again, is really a problem for YOU not the tank.)

Ive had this room for 22 years so I don’t think there is a problem. I can try opening my window a bit more, but the weather is terrible here and during the day I’m at work. I can put the skimmer back in and see if that helps.

 

3 hours ago, Murphs_Reef said:

Good call to get a more precise tester, the Hanna is quick and relatively accurate. 

Yes I wish ordering stuff for this hobby was more easy over here. Probably won’t receive it for another 2 days…

[mcarroll]

On 9/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, RickvD said:

They aren’t going down hill. They are all opening great and seem happy. Just not really growing… The reason my Montipora was dying was not enough light. Since upping my schedule he is slowly getting back to health. Just didn’t expect it to take this long but I can definitely start to see progress.

Just an anecdote, not a contradiction, but I've had various Monti's grow in almost-shade under otherwise good conditions.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, RickvD said:

I do want to dose Phosphates more often, but those color changing tests are so hard to read that I ordered a Hanna Checker. When that arrives I can test more accurate and I will start working on really getting my Phoshates up.

It's better to overdose, than to let values return to zero...there's literally no downside to over-dosing P...so select a dose "big enough" within reason and just dose that daily until your new tester arrives.  Use the tests you've done so far to refine your estimate, if possible.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, RickvD said:

The only algae I have is coralline algae. I started dosing AB+ not too long ago, and I spot feed it onto the corals.

I can't say that's a problem per se, but I can say that most folks avoid adding products like this while the tank is in this condition.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, RickvD said:

Ive had this room for 22 years so I don’t think there is a problem. I can try opening my window a bit more, but the weather is terrible here and during the day I’m at work. I can put the skimmer back in and see if that helps.

Usually this is only a problem in new, well-sealed homes.....but the number of living, breathing critters (humans too!) per square meter also makes a difference.

 

If it's an older home and you're the only thing/person living in it, then I doubt you have a CO2 problem....very unlikely.

 

On 9/18/2023 at 6:25 AM, RickvD said:

Yes I wish ordering stuff for this hobby was more easy over here. Probably won’t receive it for another 2 days…

A couple days of overdosing P will never hurt anything...

[mcarroll]

I meant to bring this up before.....but hasn't that Monti lost its flesh on those branches – hence the Astrea snail in your pic of it cleaning the "new live rock"?  Snails don't clean live coral tissue.

 

It really looks like bare skeleton, though I realize it's a blue-washed photo, so a bit harder to discern on my end of the viewing.

 

Losing tissue would be consistent with the current conditions....and they will lose "skin" before the polyps go.....

 

Thoughts?

[TheKleinReef]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:25 PM, mcarroll said:

In general, don't chase pH.  Nothing in the tank cares about it.  

 

pH is mostly a sign of atmospheric CO2 levels combined with tank alkalinity levels.  Alk is the part of pH that your corals really care about.

 

But...

 

IF atmospheric CO2 levels (in your house; in the room) are so high they can drag the tank's pH down to a problematic level (an assumption so far, not fact), YOU might be the only one in the house affected by it.  High CO2 is bad for your health.  It's mostly a fertilizer to your corals.  (Bad only if primary nutrient levels are too low and corals are starving.) 

dude what are you talking about. you blatantly contradicted yourself.

"nothing cares about pH" then you say that there is a problematic level.

 

It's super common knowledge that calcification in corals is faster at higher pH's but caps out around 8.6. but since he likes to link studies here's one:

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/188/m188p117.pdf

 

OP careful with mcarroll advice. it's often not good or very opinionated and bias.

 

Your parameters look fine with the exception of nitrate. Try boosting your mechanical filtration with floss and skimming. Get the nutrients out before they decay.

I have phosphate at .11 and nitrates are at 10

 

 

[RickvD]

Hello sorry for the slow reply. I had a really unexpected busy week.

I can't manage to get my nitrates down and I can see my corals are starting to get very annoyed. I also got a major hair algae bloom.

 

This is what I want to do to handle it:

About a week ago I made my light stronger for the sps, I have lowered the settings again. Not an insane amount. When changing the schedule I saw I accidentally put my greens on 80% 8 hours a day. Greens and reds are now completely off till I get my algae situation under control. I asked a reef store if I could borrow their par meter so I can finally pick a schedule I think looks best, and adjust the brightness till all pars are good for all corals. When that is fixed I know the problems I have aren't because of the light, and I know if my corals go bad, I need to look somewhere else.

 

I also put my skimmer back in, it hasn't helped yet (expect for pH) but it probably just need to run for a few days/week before I notice real change. 

I blow off all algae from my rocks and corals with a turkey baster every day, it annoys the coral but otherwise the zoas wont open due to the algae that keeps covering them. Still waiting on my phosphate hanna checker which should arrive this week. Then I can finally up my phosphates to a stable level, which might also lower my nitrates. 

 

I mostly feed frozen Mysis as one of my clowns refuses any flakes or pellets (tried 4 different types), normally I would throw a small piece in at once, which causes the Mysis to flow everywhere, now I suck it up with a pipet and slowly release it in the water so almost all of it is eaten immediately. I also change my filter floss every day 10 minutes after feeding so all access nutrients are pulled out before they get a chance to do anything bad. 

 

For water changes I normally do a 10% change. I will up it to 30% for the first time, then another 20% the next day if nitrates are still too high. Then for the following weeks my plan is to do a 20-25% waterchange instead of the 10% I've done for the last few months. The next waterchange I will also suck out all the water of the AIO compartment and clean the inside of the return pump so I know for sure there isn't any debree in the back chambers.

 

On 9/19/2023 at 8:59 PM, mcarroll said:

Losing tissue would be consistent with the current conditions....and they will lose "skin" before the polyps go.....

I'm afraid that means my Monti is at the end of it's life. It's sad cause I liked him, but I guess I was a bit too fast adding SPS...

 

On 9/19/2023 at 9:08 PM, TheKleinReef said:

Your parameters look fine with the exception of nitrate. Try boosting your mechanical filtration with floss and skimming. Get the nutrients out before they decay.

I have phosphate at .11 and nitrates are at 10

As I've written above I'm now doing everything I can to remove as much nutrients as I can. The next few weeks I will focus all my time on getting all the levels in check. My pH is now perfect after adding the skimmer so that is a good thing. The only thing I don't understand is my calcium and magnesium. My calcium acts like expected. It lowers over the week and is higher after the waterchange, but my magnesium gets lower after a waterchange? Magnesium: 1230, 1260, (waterchange)1140 - Calcium: 385, 370, (waterchange)400. 

 

I have put off all plans on future corals for now. I hope my montipora bounces back and otherwise it's a sad loss. My primary focus for now is lowering my nitrates by A LOT, and getting my phosphates on a solid 0.1 without it bottoming out after a few hours. I just hope the delivery service decided to hurry up and deliver my hanna checker. 

[TheKleinReef]

46 minutes ago, RickvD said:

but my magnesium gets lower after a waterchange? Magnesium: 1230, 1260, (waterchange)1140 - Calcium: 385, 370, (waterchange)400. 

have you tested the mag level on freshly mixed saltwater? if that is lower than your tank, then when you do a WC it will decrease.

another reason it could drop is if it is precipitating out, but that's pretty uncommon.

[mcarroll]

17 hours ago, RickvD said:

I can't manage to get my nitrates down and I can see my corals are starting to get very annoyed. I also got a major hair algae bloom.

Pull the hair algae out as well as you can, removing it by hand "at the roots", and working in small sections at a time so you can get each area completely clean.   If you can, gently move a snail to the area once it is fully cleaned. 

 

 

Sounds like your CUC definitely needs a solid bump "asap".  Turbos, Trochus and Astrea (ie something bigger) would be great, if possible.

 

(Hair algae is a good sign, BTW.  It likes the same conditions as corals, nutrient-wise...means you're heading in the right direction, even if you aren't quite all the way there yet.  

 

The diff between coral- and algae-dominance is enough CUC....including you as #1 CUC, of course.

 

17 hours ago, RickvD said:

I mostly feed frozen Mysis as one of my clowns refuses any flakes or pellets (tried 4 different types), normally I would throw a small piece in at once, which causes the Mysis to flow everywhere, now I suck it up with a pipet and slowly release it in the water so almost all of it is eaten immediately. I also change my filter floss every day 10 minutes after feeding so all access nutrients are pulled out before they get a chance to do anything bad.

IMO, don't knock yourself out with this.  It's definitely good not to waste food as it amounts to overfeeding.  

 

But if you're being that measured with the food going in, I don't think you need the floss routine....or use the floss at all.  (Except maybe during cleaning!). Everyday usage might even be adding to the pressure that's keeping phosphates low by removing some from the system before it can be consumed or break down....if so, you're effectively working against yourself.  Remember that whole foods like Mysis are BALANCED NUTRIENTS going into the system....so you don't really want to remove any of it, and you REALLY want it to be consumed (by anything) if at all possible.

 

Detritus Check...

If you check in the rocks, and in the sand around the rocks (and anywhere else) do you find pockets of detritus?   If so, that could be a source of unwanted nutrients...and a sign of (past) overfeeding AND/OR poor flow.  Both are bad.   You want food (and poop) that the fish don't eat to keep circulating until a fish or coral (or something!) eats it.

 

17 hours ago, RickvD said:

For water changes I normally do a 10% change. I will up it to 30% for the first time, then another 20% the next day if nitrates are still too high.

Not a bad plan, it's very bad for corals to have high nitrogen availability with zero-ish phosphate availability like this.  

 

Growing corals with N "high" and P "low" like this is akin to running your car with a full tank of gas, but no oil.  💥

 

So if you do water changes, you MUST dose up the new water change water with the proper ppm of phosphates....0.10 ppm at least.  (Or your whole daily dose...whichever is more.)  Do not let your water changes spike phosphates any lower.  

 

IMO, using that approach, you are probably fine doing as large a water change as you'd like....30% would be easy peasy.  👍

 

BTW, if your current test kit will register 0.25 ppm clearly, then you can feel free to target that level...0.10 ppm is more or less arbitrary...it's "enough" to do the job.   0.25 ppm is also "enough".  And if that level ALSO helps with testing, great...it won't hurt anything else.

 

17 hours ago, RickvD said:

My calcium acts like expected. It lowers over the week and is higher after the waterchange, but my magnesium gets lower after a waterchange? Magnesium: 1230, 1260, (waterchange)1140 - Calcium: 385, 370, (waterchange)400. 

You should test your new water change water to see if the parameter are as you expect, or if they mirror the low-Mg condition you're reporting.  

 

Thankfully variations in Mg don't seem to have an immediate impact on most things, biologically speaking...but can eventually affect specific gravity, and possibly make abiotic precipitation of alk more likely if it gets too out of whack.

 

I'd dose it up with a Mg supplement.

 

 

[RickvD]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:01 PM, TheKleinReef said:

have you tested the mag level on freshly mixed saltwater? if that is lower than your tank, then when you do a WC it will decrease.

another reason it could drop is if it is precipitating out, but that's pretty uncommon.

I compared it too what it should be according to the bucket, and that checked out. The mag level is something I will take care of the moment my nitrates and phosphates and everything else that seems to go wrong, as stabalized.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 12:08 PM, mcarroll said:

Pull the hair algae out as well as you can, removing it by hand "at the roots", and working in small sections at a time so you can get each area completely clean.   If you can, gently move a snail to the area once it is fully cleaned. 

 

 

Sounds like your CUC definitely needs a solid bump "asap".  Turbos, Trochus and Astrea (ie something bigger) would be great, if possible.

I have quite a big CUC, but just to be sure I ordered a few more snails. I did a big waterchange yesterday and another big one today. A few hours after the waterchange my nitrates went up again. I checked everything in the filter chambers and I found out a small section of it was covered in debree. Like A LOT of it. I cleaned it all out. Im going to wait atleast a few days before another waterchange as I don't want to stress the corals and fish too much. They already had a lot of stress today and yesterday. I keep sucking up all the hair algae and I also sift through the sand before every waterchange just to be sure that everything that should be there, isn't there after the waterchange. I hope I can get this under control soon. I might not have a lot of corals, but I'd still hate to lose any of them.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 12:08 PM, mcarroll said:

(Hair algae is a good sign, BTW.  It likes the same conditions as corals, nutrient-wise...means you're heading in the right direction, even if you aren't quite all the way there yet.  

My nitrate is way to high and my phosphate is way to low...

 

On 9/26/2023 at 12:08 PM, mcarroll said:

BTW, if your current test kit will register 0.25 ppm clearly, then you can feel free to target that level...0.10 ppm is more or less arbitrary...it's "enough" to do the job.   0.25 ppm is also "enough".  And if that level ALSO helps with testing, great...it won't hurt anything else.

I would be fine with 0.25, as long as it's no longer 0. Those test kits are super hard to read but I just got conformation that my Hanna checker is arriving tomorrow or the day after. From that moment on I will test every morning and bring it up to the desired level of at least 0.1. I hope that makes the corals happier, and also brings my nitrates down which will stop the algae.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 12:08 PM, mcarroll said:

I'd dose it up with a Mg supplement.

If needed I will dose Mg. I think it would be smart to get the nitrate/phosphate situation under control first so the "basic" needs of the coral are in check. Cause if daily phosphate dosing and daily Mg dosing ends up being a long time thing, I will invest in an automatic doser.

[TheKleinReef]

35 minutes ago, RickvD said:

I compared it too what it should be according to the bucket, and that checked out. The mag level is something I will take care of the moment my nitrates and phosphates and everything else that seems to go wrong, as stabalized.

mag dropping is relatively uncommon. How old is the test kit? was it contaminated? do you have access to another test kit to verify?

[mcarroll]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, RickvD said:

My nitrate is way to high and my phosphate is way to low...

You are changing things though....the presence of new hair algae growth is a positive response to your corrections.  It means you're getting there.  (Hair algae is much better at capitalizing on nutrient swings than most things, so it's a given you'll see it respond first in most cases.  Sometimes cyano instead.  Both are good signs.  I much prefer hair algae because with only a little help at the beginning, CUC will eat it.)

 

Your test results are just telling you the same thing I said – you're just not all the way there yet.  

 

"There" is where there are sufficient nutrient inputs to exceed all demands....which of course will result in a testable amount of nutrients left in the water for you to see, rather than 0.00 ppm.  👍

 

Detritus doesn't tend to factor in to current dissolved nutrients levels, BTW.  I'm talking about the little pile of it that anyone is likely to find around their system if they look....especially in underutilized areas like back chambers and sumps.  It *is* a sign that there is some food wastage and possibly a flow issue...and those are things to be examined and potentially fixed.  But once food or poop gets to the detritus phase, it has generally already been deprived of soluble nutrients by (e.g.) bacterial breakdown.  That usually happens pretty fast too.  So removing detritus won't stop the buildup of nitrates.  But eliminating the cause of the detritus might have an impact.  (If it's only a small amount of detritus, it's probably not a factor at all...flow and feeding may be fine.)  Sounds like you're on the right path with this.  👍

 

Nitrates in your system are almost certainly so high due to phosphate limitation.  In other words, nitrogen utilization is being hampered by the lack of another essential nutrient.

 

This is indicates why dosing P – even if you ended up "overdosing" or adopting a higher target level like 0.25 ppm so it would be more testable – is pretty important right now.  Your whole reef is sorta bound up on this limitation at the moment.

 

On 9/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, RickvD said:

I would be fine with 0.25, as long as it's no longer 0.

In that case, I'd make the assumption that the level is at 0.00 ppm right now, and make a dose to get the system up to 0.25 ppm.  

 

If you're reasonably confident in your dose calculation, don't even bother testing unless you want to.  Make the same dose every day until your new tester arrives.   That'll keep things "in the green" until you get a better view of the numbers.

 

I'd be pretty surprised if you have to dose nutrients for long.   It's not really a total mystery anymore why the tank got this way, so a return to this condition seems very avoidable.  🙂 👍

 

Chances are things will be much more balanced and "reefy" going forward.

 

Green algae was a sign.  Coralline algae and corals are what you want to see improving next, BTW.  And getting your Mg into range will be more important to coralline algae than to most other things in the tank.  Corals and most other things don't seem to care.  But coralline seems Mg-intensive.  

 

On 9/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, RickvD said:

If needed I will dose Mg.

If your salt mix isn't right but you have Mg supplement, there's no real reason to wait before fixing the tank'e level.  Definitely fix your water change water by dosing it to the proper level at least.

 

It sounds like you should really test your fresh-made saltwater's Mg level to see what it's actually mixing to.  If it's not around 1300 ppm ± 100ppm (tho preferably a tighter range than that) then there's something wrong with your salt mix....the mfgr might even replace it for you.  I think all major brands have had batch goofs or other issues that have caused replacements to be necessary.....it happens.  Is there any chance your bucket of salt just needs to be re-sealed and mixed-up by rolling it around a bunch?

[RickvD]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:53 PM, TheKleinReef said:

mag dropping is relatively uncommon. How old is the test kit? was it contaminated? do you have access to another test kit to verify?

Test kit is about 6 months old now. I sadly do not have any other test kits but I will text the store I always go to if they can test it for me. I'm sure they won't mind. Sadly due to work and my birthday this weekend, I won't have time till next Wednesday.

 

12 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You are changing things though....the presence of new hair algae growth is a positive response to your corrections.  It means you're getting there.  (Hair algae is much better at capitalizing on nutrient swings than most things, so it's a given you'll see it respond first in most cases.  Sometimes cyano instead.  Both are good signs.  I much prefer hair algae because with only a little help at the beginning, CUC will eat it.)

 

Your test results are just telling you the same thing I said – you're just not all the way there yet.  

Well, I have some bad news. Not hair algae but Dino's... I think they managed to get it cause I sometime dose Phosphates, and sometimes I didn't meaning it would bottom out every few days. I saw some little bubbles in a few so I did some tests and yea... Not to happy with the results. I'm not sure what the best way to go is. I'd rather not do a 3 day blackout with my corals already not doing to good. Hydrogen peroxide dosing maybe?

 

12 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If you're reasonably confident in your dose calculation, don't even bother testing unless you want to.  Make the same dose every day until your new tester arrives.   That'll keep things "in the green" until you get a better view of the numbers.

 

I'd be pretty surprised if you have to dose nutrients for long.   It's not really a total mystery anymore why the tank got this way, so a return to this condition seems very avoidable.  🙂 👍

 

Chances are things will be much more balanced and "reefy" going forward.

I finally received my Hanna checker yesterday. When testing my water it had basicly 0 phosphates. I dosed just enough to get it to the 0.1. After testing again 8 hours later, it was back to 0.03. Dosed again till it was at 0.1. When I woke up I tested it again and it was at 0.07. Dosed again till it was at 0.1. I got work in a few hours, and I won't be back home till tomorrow morning so then I will test again. My nitrates went up again to 35-50. It seems to dark to be 25, but to light to be 50. It's still lighter then before all the water changes, but now that I know I have dino's. I'm afraid I will have to let the nitrates be a bit high as I've heard doing more water chances only makes the dino's worse. Also messed around with the par meter. I think my schedule is good now. Not completely sure so I might change it around a bit the next few days.

 

  

12 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It sounds like you should really test your fresh-made saltwater's Mg level to see what it's actually mixing to.  If it's not around 1300 ppm ± 100ppm (tho preferably a tighter range than that) then there's something wrong with your salt mix....the mfgr might even replace it for you.  I think all major brands have had batch goofs or other issues that have caused replacements to be necessary.....it happens.  Is there any chance your bucket of salt just needs to be re-sealed and mixed-up by rolling it around a bunch?

I'm going to test my saltwater once more just to be sure. I will post the results in a few minutes.

[matth6761]

Possibly contamination?

 

Early on, I was having a hard time getting my corals to grow. Had nice light and perfect parameters, but really unimpressive growth. Turned out I had some heavy metal issues from a cracked and rusty magnet on an old frag rack. Once that was removed, coral growth in my stoneys finally took off. Just an idea.

[mcarroll]

On 9/29/2023 at 5:31 AM, RickvD said:

Well, I have some bad news. Not hair algae but Dino's... I think they managed to get it cause I sometime dose Phosphates, and sometimes I didn't meaning it would bottom out every few days. I saw some little bubbles in a few so I did some tests and yea... Not to happy with the results. I'm not sure what the best way to go is. I'd rather not do a 3 day blackout with my corals already not doing to good. Hydrogen peroxide dosing maybe?

No miracle cures – no peroxide; no blackouts.  

 

Same course you're on, just be more aggressive with resolving the phosphate issue.  Dino's are pissed for the same reason as everything else.  Even once dino's start blooming, if you make the need corrections to the system they can self-resolve very quickly sometimes.  Gotta move fast – don't wait for that test kit! 😉 

 

Can you post a pic of the tank w/dino's?  Curious how good/bad it is.

 

On 9/29/2023 at 5:31 AM, RickvD said:

I finally received my Hanna checker yesterday. When testing my water it had basicly 0 phosphates. I dosed just enough to get it to the 0.1. After testing again 8 hours later, it was back to 0.03. Dosed again till it was at 0.1. When I woke up I tested it again and it was at 0.07. Dosed again till it was at 0.1. I got work in a few hours, and I won't be back home till tomorrow morning so then I will test again.

This is great news.  

 

Hopefully things will be noticeably better when you see the tank again – you have relieved an immediate and dire need for many organisms.  

 

Keep up the dosing – and don't be shy about raising the level a bit if you're gonna have to miss a dose for any reason.  👍

 

On 9/29/2023 at 5:31 AM, RickvD said:

I'm afraid I will have to let the nitrates be a bit high as I've heard doing more water chances only makes the dino's worse.

The nitrates are just high due to the phosphate limitation anyway....so no more worries on that, at least until PO4 has been nailed for a week or two.  Demand for N is going to be increasing, maybe dramatically.

 

As far as hearsay on dino's, there is a ton.  The bottom line is that there are no miracle "cures" for algae...dino's included.  

 

Please use this thread as a reference for dino's – the best resource on dino's since 2017, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm biased. 😉 Tried very hard to leave B.S. and myth out and include as much real science and legit experimentation as possible in the founding of that thread – and it worked.  The thread has been very successful – there are even copycat groups on social media. 😄 🤮 (But seriously....the more REAL info that gets disseminated in place of malarkey, the better.  Some folks don't wanna use that website I guess.  Fine by me.)

[RickvD]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:59 AM, mcarroll said:

This is great news.  

 

Hopefully things will be noticeably better when you see the tank again – you have relieved an immediate and dire need for many organisms.  

 

Keep up the dosing – and don't be shy about raising the level a bit if you're gonna have to miss a dose for any reason.  👍

I have been dosing for a few days now but it hasn't stabilised yet.

My test results:

Friday: at 10:30 the results were 0,07, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Friday: at 13:00 the results were 0,03, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Saturday: at 12:30 the results were 0,02, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Monday: at 12:15 the results were 0,03, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Tuesday: at 12:30 the results were 0,01, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

According to this I use about (+-0,01)  0,08 Phosphates a day. Which is weird as I didn't get the chance to test/dose on Sunday, but Monday wasn't 0...

 

On 9/30/2023 at 11:59 AM, mcarroll said:

The nitrates are just high due to the phosphate limitation anyway....so no more worries on that, at least until PO4 has been nailed for a week or two.  Demand for N is going to be increasing, maybe dramatically.

Nitrates are a bit lower. Still slightly high, but not an insane amount. For now the results are fine. Hoping to buy a Hanna Nitrate soon so that I can test that more precisely. 

 

On 9/30/2023 at 11:59 AM, mcarroll said:

As far as hearsay on dino's, there is a ton.  The bottom line is that there are no miracle "cures" for algae...dino's included.  

 

Please use this thread as a reference for dino's – the best resource on dino's since 2017, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm biased. 😉 Tried very hard to leave B.S. and myth out and include as much real science and legit experimentation as possible in the founding of that thread – and it worked.  The thread has been very successful – there are even copycat groups on social media. 😄 🤮 (But seriously....the more REAL info that gets disseminated in place of malarkey, the better.  Some folks don't wanna use that website I guess.  Fine by me.)

The dino's keep coming so fast. I had to turn off my ATO cause my filter floss keeps clogging in the matter of minutes. I have lost both SPS due to them being covered constantly. I can blow off all dino's but less then 10 seconds later it's like I never blew them off... Half off my zoas are opening less and less... At least I have noticed my hammer responding good to the Phosphate dosing. But I think at least half my zoas will be gone after winning this battle. They weren't the most expensive zoas, I bought them from local hobbyist, but it still sucks. They just keep coming and coming and they seem to come faster every day. I really don't know what to do but I'm not sure my tank can handle this much longer...

 

On 9/30/2023 at 11:59 AM, mcarroll said:

Can you post a pic of the tank w/dino's?  Curious how good/bad it is.

I will take a picture when I get home. I saw this comment after spending 2 hours on cleaning out as much as possible and only had about 15% of the dino's left. Work has been killing me so every spare minute I have goes to removing dino's. Apparently I no longer get notifications about this thread...

 

 

Tomorrow is waterchange day. Should I still do a waterchange? I've read somewhere that I shouldn't do waterchanges while battling dino's. Only replace filter floss and carbon.

[mcarroll]

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

My test results:

Friday: at 10:30 the results were 0,07, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Friday: at 13:00 the results were 0,03, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Saturday: at 12:30 the results were 0,02, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Monday: at 12:15 the results were 0,03, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Tuesday: at 12:30 the results were 0,01, I dosed it back up to 0,1.

Definitely prevent this pattern from repeating anymore by adapting your dose upward....target 0.25 instead of 0.10....or dose twice a day instead of once...something.   But don't let that pattern repeat.  👍

 

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

According to this I use about (+-0,01)  0,08 Phosphates a day. Which is weird as I didn't get the chance to test/dose on Sunday, but Monday wasn't 0...

If dosing at that rate prevents the test from returning to 0.00 (or even close) then go with it.  But use even larger doses if numbers still rapidly decline as in the timeline you posted.

 

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

Nitrates are a bit lower. Still slightly high, but not an insane amount. For now the results are fine. Hoping to buy a Hanna Nitrate soon so that I can test that more precisely.

I'd hold off another week or so to see if you still think that's needed.  👍

 

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

The dino's keep coming so fast.

If you haven't already, consider adding a micron filter and/or a UV filter to your display tank, as suggested in that thread I linked a couple posts up.  👍

 

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

I will take a picture when I get home. I saw this comment after spending 2 hours on cleaning out as much as possible and only had about 15% of the dino's left.

Sounds like you would only have to wait 10 seconds to get a pic of the dino's back tho.  (Sorry....funny/not-funny. 😉 )   

 

21 hours ago, RickvD said:

Work has been killing me so every spare minute I have goes to removing dino's. Apparently I no longer get notifications about this thread...

 

 

Tomorrow is waterchange day. Should I still do a waterchange? I've read somewhere that I shouldn't do waterchanges while battling dino's. Only replace filter floss and carbon.

I know work is real and there's only 24 hours in a day, but read the first post on that Dino thread I linked you do. 😉

 

Don't worry about reading the whole thread.....just the first post and links there.  

 

The rest of the thread is interesting in its own right, but it's just a HUGE pile (thousands and thousands) of anecdotes....the meat of what you need to do and why is on that first post.  Read the rest of the thread optionally, and at your leisure.   One thing is that you can get a sense from the later posts on what size UV filter to get and how we direct folks to install them, but probably not a lot more than that.   (Maybe some encouragement from seeing a ton of other folks getting rid of dino's.)

 

When you do your water change, dose it with phosphates up to your target level.  That way there will be no change in the tank's level (or the change will be net-positive).

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

On 9/30/2023 at 3:59 AM, mcarroll said:

Please use this thread as a reference for dino's

is there a reason you no longer post on r2r? jus curious.

 

[RickvD]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

Definitely prevent this pattern from repeating anymore by adapting your dose upward....target 0.25 instead of 0.10....or dose twice a day instead of once...something.   But don't let that pattern repeat.  👍

 

It's weird, yesterday I got home and it was still on 0,06 and I dosed it back up to 0,1, but today when I got home it was back to 0,01. I can kind of get an average, but some days the Phosphates will be a bit higher, and some days a bit lower. So that wouldn't be to good for stability...

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

If dosing at that rate prevents the test from returning to 0.00 (or even close) then go with it.  But use even larger doses if numbers still rapidly decline as in the timeline you posted.

Alright from tomorrow, I will dose it back up even more. If I'm correct that would mean after a while the tank is satisfied and will stop using this much right? Now it keeps declining fast, but if I keep it higher for a while, it will stop dropping fast?

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

I'd hold off another week or so to see if you still think that's needed.  👍

Yea I'm not planning on buying one immediately, but I hope that in not too long, I can change all really important parameters checkers to Hanna's.

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

If you haven't already, consider adding a micron filter and/or a UV filter to your display tank, as suggested in that thread I linked a couple posts up.  👍

 

I do not have a UV filter but it might be time to invest in one. I also read that thread and it was really informative!

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

Sounds like you would only have to wait 10 seconds to get a pic of the dino's back tho.  (Sorry....funny/not-funny. 😉 )   

Haha no the main problem is that most days when I leave for work the lights are off, and they are also off at the time I get back. Weekends and Wednesdays are sadly the only days I can really enjoy looking at the tank. All other days it's just feed, test, dose and repeat.

The dino's don't seem to get worse anymore... They aren't going away, but they are definitely not getting worse.

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:55 PM, mcarroll said:

One thing is that you can get a sense from the later posts on what size UV filter to get and how we direct folks to install them, but probably not a lot more than that.   (Maybe some encouragement from seeing a ton of other folks getting rid of dino's.)

 

When you do your water change, dose it with phosphates up to your target level.  That way there will be no change in the tank's level (or the change will be net-positive).

Yea reading posts from people that managed to get rid of dino's really help. Especially as I'm starting to lose corals. They keep opening less and less and colors are getting less.

 

I did a normal 10% waterchange and dosed the water before adding it to the tank. Luckily the waterchange didn't make the dinos worse.

 

 

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, RickvD said:

t's weird, yesterday I got home and it was still on 0,06 and I dosed it back up to 0,1, but today when I got home it was back to 0,01. I can kind of get an average, but some days the Phosphates will be a bit higher, and some days a bit lower. So that wouldn't be to good for stability...

Stability in some things like phosphate just means assuring a consistent minimum (≥) level – or adequate access to phosphates for all your target organisms.   In the long run, ≥ 0.03 ppm is pretty much that minimum...that's also what I'd consider the "danger zone" for your tank currently, while you're targeting ≥ 0.10 ppm.

 

Sounds like demand is starting to level out though – it's what we want sooner or later, just not rushing it.

 

6 hours ago, RickvD said:

I do not have a UV filter but it might be time to invest in one. I also read that thread and it was really informative!

As you will see on that thread (or have seen already) just about any UV you have access to can work, if you pay attention to the sizing and installation recommendations you see.  (...in-tank vs in-sump; correct watts/gallon)

 

6 hours ago, RickvD said:

Haha no the main problem is that most days when I leave for work the lights are off, and they are also off at the time I get back. Weekends and Wednesdays are sadly the only days I can really enjoy looking at the tank.

Whoa...that really is not-funny.  

 

If possible, I would adjust the tank's lighting schedule to make prime viewing time happen during your prime viewing time – when you're home and have a nice chunk of time for the tank, no matter what time of day that is.

 

Have the system start sunrise right before or after you get home, depending on what you want to see.   Or have your prime viewing time correspond to the last chunk of the systems day before lights go out if you want to see that.....I like watching at the fish go to bed before lights-out. 😄 

 

6 hours ago, RickvD said:

All other days it's just feed, test, dose and repeat.

The dino's don't seem to get worse anymore... They aren't going away, but they are definitely not getting worse.

That's "good", but we'd love to see "better", of course.   Keep up the good work!!

 

I forget were you able to get a microscope ID of the type of dino's you're dealing with?

 

Also, do you notice them getting significantly worse during the day vs during lights-out?   Do they actually seem to go away at night?

[RickvD]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:12 AM, mcarroll said:

Stability in some things like phosphate just means assuring a consistent minimum (≥) level – or adequate access to phosphates for all your target organisms.   In the long run, ≥ 0.03 ppm is pretty much that minimum...that's also what I'd consider the "danger zone" for your tank currently, while you're targeting ≥ 0.10 ppm.

 

Sounds like demand is starting to level out though – it's what we want sooner or later, just not rushing it.

Alright instead of dosing it up to 0,1, I'm now dosing it up to 0,15 to see if that prevents it from bottoming out.

 

On 10/7/2023 at 5:12 AM, mcarroll said:

If possible, I would adjust the tank's lighting schedule to make prime viewing time happen during your prime viewing time – when you're home and have a nice chunk of time for the tank, no matter what time of day that is.

 

Have the system start sunrise right before or after you get home, depending on what you want to see.   Or have your prime viewing time correspond to the last chunk of the systems day before lights go out if you want to see that.....I like watching at the fish go to bed before lights-out. 😄 

Yea I have changed the schedule times so I get at least 2 hours of viewing time a day.

 

On 10/7/2023 at 5:12 AM, mcarroll said:

That's "good", but we'd love to see "better", of course.   Keep up the good work!!

 

I forget were you able to get a microscope ID of the type of dino's you're dealing with?

 

Also, do you notice them getting significantly worse during the day vs during lights-out?   Do they actually seem to go away at night?

I bought a kids microscope back when I had diatoms. I can pull some out and put in under my microscope, but that won't be possible untill tomorrow.

They go away at night, not completely but for sure a little bit. The way I tested if I had dino's was by pulling some algae out, shaking it like crazy, then shifting it through a filter sock. After a few minutes I have strings again.

 

They aren't covering everything anymore. Just the corals, wavemaker and sand. Rocks is almost all gone.