Sterilize & Quarantine process for coral?

[Aqua Splendor]

Hello, I'm looking for information about ways to sterilize coral to a point there's no Copepods, no algae (probably not possible?), no invertebrates whatsoever, basically the highest we could achieve where it's PURELY just the coral itself and water.
Is it possible?
For example, If I going with a Softy, like a "kenya tree" I can cut the flesh directly. But on that piece, there's mucus and on this mucus there's things I might not want, how can I achieve the perfect "laboratory/sterilized" environment?

There's 2/3 thing I don't think I can do anything: Bacteria and Algae, possibly pathogen trace too. But the rest, out.

If it takes 6 months, then it takes 6 months, I want nothing else than the coral itself. Is it just a fantasy or is it possible to achieve?

[mitten_reef]

1 hour ago, Aqua Splendor said:

Hello, I'm looking for information about ways to sterilize coral to a point there's no Copepods, no algae (probably not possible?), no invertebrates whatsoever, basically the highest we could achieve where it's PURELY just the coral itself and water.
Is it possible?
For example, If I going with a Softy, like a "kenya tree" I can cut the flesh directly. But on that piece, there's mucus and on this mucus there's things I might not want, how can I achieve the perfect "laboratory/sterilized" environment?

There's 2/3 thing I don't think I can do anything: Bacteria and Algae, possibly pathogen trace too. But the rest, out.

If it takes 6 months, then it takes 6 months, I want nothing else than the coral itself. Is it just a fantasy or is it possible to achieve?

I'm sure you can subject your corals to some really harsh environment to get rid of "most" unwanted pests.

 

Beyer dip will take care of most "bugs-type".

 

I'm sure Iodine will do the same with different point of attack.

 

high-concentration peroxide to attack algae

 

bacterial pathogen will be harder to verify.

 

but to do all that at high enough concentration, you'll likely have to have multi-tank quarantine for each stage.  and some "rest days/rest weeks" between each treatments?

 

oh, don't forget a watch repairman magnifying glass station with some stainless steel dental picks for all the things you can actually physically remove

[seabass]

Obviously a sterile environment usually isn't ideal; however, I get what you're asking.  We certainly don't wish to add pests into our display tanks.

 

Killing off pest animals animals can be accomplished by a reef dip (like BioAdvanced Complete Insect Killer, formerly known as Bayer).  Algae might be a little more difficult.  Certain coral species do well with peroxide dips (others not so much).  Fragging coral is often the most effective way to eliminate unwanted algae.

 

I see mitten_reef already covered most of this.

[mitten_reef]

interceptor (yes, the dog medicine) is supposedly good to treat redbugs and white bugs that attack acros. 

[Aqua Splendor]

1 minute ago, mitten_reef said:

but to do all that at high enough concentration, you'll likely have to have multi-tank quarantine for each stage.  and some "rest days/rest weeks" between each treatments?

Yep

Peroxide/Dipping coral/Iodine are not enough for what I have in mind. I'm looking for something (process) way crazier than this, so far beside those one, it's the observation and using tool to remove anything over a long period with multiple small tank.

 

Like, I'm looking for "purity" something never heard of (to my knowledge), is it possible or not I don't mind, it's the process, I'm trying to think what I'm missing.

for example: Tropica Sell plants in small plants from seeds with gel/liquid. There's nothing else than that, its a sterilized environment, it's the type of thing I'm trying to dig a bit.

[Aqua Splendor]

7 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

interceptor (yes, the dog medicine) is supposedly good to treat redbugs and white bugs that attack acros. 

 

7 minutes ago, seabass said:

Obviously a sterile environment usually isn't ideal; however, I get what you're asking.  We certainly don't wish to add pests into our display tanks.

 

Killing off pest animals animals can be accomplished by a reef dip (like BioAdvanced Complete Insect Killer, formerly known as Bayer).  Algae might be a little more difficult.  Certain coral species do well with peroxide dips (others not so much).  Fragging coral is often the most effective way to eliminate unwanted algae.

 

I see mitten_reef already covered most of this.

If I could give an image of what I'm trying: Imagine having an euphyllia and the dead skeleton is white. (and its perfectly healthy) Its the kind of stuff I have in mind. 
Pest are easy to remove, not a big deal, its finding the purity of the coral with nothing else I have in mind.

With a "kenya tree" I can cut a branch, easy, clean usually, but, on it, there's mucus, in that mucus there's pods and other stuff, like even that mucus annoyins.

People receive black coral, they turn it grey and its fine, but what I have in mind is white.

 

Having water with no spore is also something I have in mind.

[TheKleinReef]

14 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

interceptor (yes, the dog medicine) is supposedly good to treat redbugs and white bugs that attack acros. 

can confirm, i did the systemic treatment for redbugs.

[TheKleinReef]

sterile environment and healthy environments are not always the same thing. a sterile environment seems like an odd goal to chase.

[seabass]

I'm not really sure how to fully accomplish what you are describing.  I'm interested in what you might finally come up with.  Quarantine will obviously be required to catch what gets missed in fragging, dipping, scraping, etc.  Algae and photosynthetic corals require the same things (light and nutrients); so getting rid of all of the algae might not be possible without herbivores.  But herbivores are typically more to control algae than to fully eradicate it.

 

Certain pest algae can be gotten rid of.  However, I believe that the film algae which we get on the glass might be harder to totally eradicate (and most people don't try to eradicate it).  Maybe a good goal would be to have non-fleshy areas (plugs, rocks, skeletons, etc) covered by coralline algae instead.    That might be possible.

[Aqua Splendor]

11 minutes ago, seabass said:

I'm not really sure how to fully accomplish what you are describing.  I'm interested in what you might finally come up with.  Quarantine will obviously be required to catch what gets missed in fragging, dipping, scraping, etc.  Algae and photosynthetic corals require the same things (light and nutrients); so getting rid of all of the algae might not be possible without herbivores.  But herbivores are typically more to control algae than to fully eradicate it.

 

Certain pest algae can be gotten rid of.  However, I believe that the film algae which we get on the glass might be harder to totally eradicate (and most people don't try to eradicate it).  Maybe a good goal would be to have non-fleshy areas (plugs, rocks, skeletons, etc) covered by coralline algae instead.    That might be possible.

A technic I had in mind is for example, cut the tips of a pocillopora, and start and aquarium from that, let it grow. But on that piece, on that skin, its always that mucus membrane that "piss" me off since it can be filled with anything that could be hard to remove (without killing the coral).

From experience, covering with glue a certain area = contaminated aquarium, it doesn't stop the spread and I found it (slightly) useless (but good in certain situation).

 

I had in mind to start aquarium from 1-3mm coral piece and let them grow to full colony, that would take 3-4 years, but still, so hard (impossible) to achieve such purity.

My other concern is adding coral food that contains different bacteria, pathogen, algae etc... 

[mitten_reef]

 

39 minutes ago, Aqua Splendor said:

 

If I could give an image of what I'm trying: Imagine having an euphyllia and the dead skeleton is white. (and its perfectly healthy) Its the kind of stuff I have in mind. 
Pest are easy to remove, not a big deal, its finding the purity of the coral with nothing else I have in mind.

With a "kenya tree" I can cut a branch, easy, clean usually, but, on it, there's mucus, in that mucus there's pods and other stuff, like even that mucus annoyins.

People receive black coral, they turn it grey and its fine, but what I have in mind is white.

 

Having water with no spore is also something I have in mind.

So you're not really talking about sterilizing the corals per se.  you really are trying to remove anything and everything that came along on exposed skeleton and frag plugs/rocks etc.

 

for your euphyllia example, very few vendors can and do grow euphylia that don't have (or minimal) exposed skeleton.  Idk if there's really a way to reverse the bio-stain on the skeleton back to bright white like it's just RTN, bacteria and film algae took over and leave those coloration on it.  for that, maybe, MAYBE, you can dip the "stem" into white vinegar to try to dissolve out all the surface impurity...the vinegar should eat away at the outer layer of stuff - it'll depend on how long the algae and stain had been on there, the long they have, the less likely you'll be able to etch away all the stained part using the vinegar.  

[mitten_reef]

12 minutes ago, Aqua Splendor said:

I had in mind to start aquarium from 1-3mm coral piece and let them grow to full colony, that would take 3-4 years, but still, so hard (impossible) to achieve such purity.

No, you won't achieve it.  think about starting a tank from dry rock, you get film algae.  algae spores are in the air.  no one willingly introduced algae in the tank at that stage.

 

nitrifying bacteria (or their spores) do exist in the air, that's why you can slow cycle your tank without adding a single bacteria, but by simply adding ammonia source.

 

I think I'm missing something about your idea of purity in a system designed to be non-sterile, ecosystem (aka it takes multiple types organisms to keep our tiny tank going, and most of them we can't control, i.e. bacteria). 

 

there was that genomic type guy that offers to do a biodiversity analysis of your tank (forgot the name), and I'm willing to bet he hasn't received same results once.  

 

I think your idea is more akin to, can a frag/colony of coral (inspected, scraped, dipped, all things possible to remove any hitchhikers, etc, and re-conditioned) be grown in a brand new, freshly mixed saltwater tank with just the water and light, no sand, rocks or other media within the system.  Then said system is treated with 100% wc daily.    To that, I'm willing to say, yes it's probably possible to grow coral in "sterile".       

[Aqua Splendor]

I like the idea of dipping the skeleton part in vinegar and I would probably touch the skin a bit but, even If I do this, like you said, its not possible to not have algae (algae and bacteria are out of my list, I just can't conceive an idea to not have them, its automatic...)

 

And yes im stretching the word "sterile" a little bit.

But what if...

 

How could we achieve that? Conventional methods are not good enough

 

I had in mind machines that would kill anything floating in water (Over size UV) and air killing germs,

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

Are you trying to create an analog to Germ-Free Mice?   I could be mistaking your intent, but this is sorta what it sounds like.  These are interesting for experimentation in certain circumstances.  But production is quite intensive.

 

I also wonder if you would need to account (more) for the aspects of a coral's lifestyle described here: Microbes in the coral holobiont: partners through evolution, development, and ecological interactions?  Photosynthetic corals are quite integrated, and their mucus is how they feed and otherwise interact with their holobiont.

[TheKleinReef]

I’m getting the feeling this thread is bait 

And we all took it 

[Aqua Splendor]

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Are you trying to create an analog to Germ-Free Mice?   I could be mistaking your intent, but this is sorta what it sounds like.  These are interesting for experimentation in certain circumstances.  But production is quite intensive.

 

I also wonder if you would need to account (more) for the aspects of a coral's lifestyle described here: Microbes in the coral holobiont: partners through evolution, development, and ecological interactions?  Photosynthetic corals are quite integrated, and their mucus is how they feed and otherwise interact with their holobiont.

 

Yes, the question is, how would we approach this with corals, what interest me is not doing it, its the process and what we could learn from this process that could be realistically applicable.
My 2 biggest concerns is the Air transmissions and Tool cross contaminations in a realistic world.

Yes we can do the usually diping/observation/quarantine but what could we learn from making a theoric unrealistic sterilize approach that could be applicable.

 

Sidenote: I "infected" a coral with just water from another aquarium that had perhaps some *spore of vermetid snail and that shocked me a little bit. Its that kind of anecdote that push me this kind of reflexion and what could we do better.

[seabass]

17 hours ago, Aqua Splendor said:

I had in mind to start aquarium from 1-3mm coral piece and let them grow to full colony, that would take 3-4 years, but still, so hard (impossible) to achieve such purity.

I feel that kind of sums it up.

 

First, that achieving the purity in which you describe (no life besides coral) is hard to imagine in practice.  Our systems are already much less diverse than what's on a natural reef.  But is it possible to reduce this diversity even further?  Yeah, I'd say that it's possible.  IMO, reducing (non-coral) animal life seems to be easier than reducing all forms of algae and protist.  One of the most effective ways to control unwanted species seems to be encouraging more favorable life to out compete the less favorable lifeforms.  For example, coralline algae discourages other forms of algae from taking hold on surfaces that coralline already covers; even the coral itself will compete with algae for space.

 

But I'd argue that reducing biodiversity, versus increasing biodiversity, is contrary to today's popular reef keeping theory.  Sure there are irritating and destructive pests which hinder coral growth, but others can provide food sources, or ways to recycle nutrients, or even provide healthy competition which helps to control harmful pests (like dinos).  So I would contend that we should strive to increase the diversity of beneficial life, while reducing (or eliminating) harmful species.  Besides, I don't think that bleached white rock and coral skeletons look very natural.

 

Secondly, I think you've hit on what I had suggested earlier, that pest-free coral frags (broken or cut from healthy colonies) is one of the more effective ways to prevent transferring unwanted species.  Follow this up with quarantine to make sure that you have not inadvertently left any harmful pests.  Also, I wouldn't discount introducing select organisms (like coralline algae, small pods, even phytoplankton) to provide some bio-diversity (not all pods are bad, just like not all pods are good).

 

You're also not wrong that this will take some time.  We often try to rush the results by taking shortcuts.  Establishing large healthy colonies without pests will likely take some time.  Are you looking at doing this to be able to sell pest-free corals to the public, or are you simply trying to create a pest-free reef tank which doesn't have all of the hassles which we often have to deal with?

[Aqua Splendor]

My motivation is more towards what is possible and impossible and what we can learn from that.
One of the reason is, I've never seen anyone doing that and I always wonder how far can we stretch that. 

I've read some paper saying the dinoflagellate inside the corals can morph and become something else, (can't remember the link) and I thought it was fascinating.

I have my own little frag aquarium, linked to my main and I contaminated my main tank that way (frag was operational). I knew what would happen and bad stuff spreaded, but its ok.

At the same time, I'm just tired of buying coral that are nasty and wish people would care more about that but with store that put their order from ocean directly to their tank without even checking because time is money, well its... regretable and I think we could do better than that.

Speaking of pods, I was thinking if plan A is likely to fail ( near 0 other life form) Plan B would be to control the Algae via nutriment? But even there, I coral will suffer before the algae suffer probably depending on each case. Than a solution is those pods maybe? The moment I introduce a snail with their shell its over, everything grow on their shell and get stuck between their spiral. 

The only real way is like you said to be selective and find natural predator. I think it's easy to not have Aiptasia/Aquilonastra/Vermitid/flatworm, but Bad dinoflagellate, and similar phytoplankton form its freaking hard. Using an Algaecid during quarantine is a most but, only kill 99%, that 1% is what make the difference and screw you over because of the reproduction method.

 

Right now I'm looking my tank, I see bubble air... I know what is coming in the next few weeks... god damnit.

 

One thing I learned is stoping the urge of using product to kill, you kill so many thing at the same time. Being patience and wait for a balance is often better on long run.