Tips on dosing phosphate and nitrate

[RickvD]

Hello,

Since the beginning of my tank journey, I've been facing issues with maintaining zero nitrate and phosphate levels. After dealing with diatoms and algae, I managed to elevate these levels successfully. Everything was going well, and I introduced a zoa coral. Initially, it thrived, so I decided to add another one. Suddenly, nitrate and phosphate levels dropped back to zero, and I noticed the return of algae and other issues.

 

I attempted to address this by feeding Red Sea AB+ as I had heard it could help raise phosphate and nitrate levels. However, it seems that this approach hasn't been effective enough.

 

Consequently, I'm considering starting to dose Nyos PHOSPHATE+ and NITRATE+ by hand. What would be the most effective method for doing this?

The instructions on the bottle state:

"1 ml NITRATE + increases nitrate levels in a 100 L (25 gal) aquarium by 1 ppm. 1 ml PHOSPHATE + increases phosphate levels in a 100 L (25 gal) aquarium by 0.01 ppm."

 

Should I administer a sufficient amount of both to reach the desired levels, then monitor daily to determine how many days it takes to deplete them and calculate the daily dosage required to maintain these levels consistently?

[TheKleinReef]

I will forever be wary of dosing nitrates since it will also increase alk (not by a lot, but also not 0). 
 

randy Holmes Farley has a thread on reef2reef that talks about dosing ammonium chloride instead of sodium nitrate, and the end result is the same: an increase in overall nitrate. I haven’t personally done that but the chemistry is sound. 

[RickvD]

51 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

I will forever be wary of dosing nitrates since it will also increase alk (not by a lot, but also not 0). 

Yea the thing is I have been struggling for months and tried everything else but I can't get it up. And everyone keeps saying that if I dose phosphate I also need to dose nitrate.

[TheKleinReef]

1 minute ago, RickvD said:

Yea the thing is I have been struggling for months and tried everything else but I can't get it up. And everyone keeps saying that if I dose phosphate I also need to dose nitrate.

What are your nitrate and phosphate values right now? 0/0?

[RickvD]

Just now, TheKleinReef said:

What are your nitrate and phosphate values right now? 0/0?

Phosphate is 0. Nitrates are 5-10PPM (first time in a few days it's at a acceptable level haha) Nitrates are sometimes fine, sometimes not. Phosphates are absolutely 0 and I don't want my corals to suffer from it.

[TheKleinReef]

i wouldn't bother with dosing nitrate then. 

AB+ and reefroids are hella filled with phosphates. It took me a while to figure out how much to use, but I'd recommend that over a supplement. You'd be surprised how little we actually feed our reef tank inhabitants. 

[RickvD]

 

Just now, TheKleinReef said:

i wouldn't bother with dosing nitrate then. 

AB+ and reefroids are hella filled with phosphates. It took me a while to figure out how much to use, but I'd recommend that over a supplement. You'd be surprised how little we actually feed our reef tank inhabitants. 

I did read that there are indeed phosphates in it, but that the phosphates in the AB+ disappear in a few minutes to an hour. Also if I just dose phosphate, won't that bottom out my nitrates? Should I start dosing phosphates and see what happens, or continue with the AB+ for another week to see how they react? I only got the AB+ yesterday so It's not like I've tried it for a while. Just afraid of losing the few corals I have.

[TheKleinReef]

usually it's when one of the two is too high that causes the other to bottom out. 

What happend to me is phosphate was 0.1ppm and nitrate wouldn't budge from 0. It wasn't until phosphate came down a little before I could get my nitrtate >5ppm. 

 

With both of yours being lower than you'd like, I personally would start with trying add both a nitrogen based source, and a phosphorus based source, ie foods. 

1 hour ago, TheKleinReef said:

I will forever be wary of dosing nitrates since it will also increase alk (not by a lot, but also not 0). 
 

randy Holmes Farley has a thread on reef2reef that talks about dosing ammonium chloride instead of sodium nitrate, and the end result is the same: an increase in overall nitrate. I haven’t personally done that but the chemistry is sound. 

 

i forgot to link this: it's a good read:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

[RickvD]

Just now, TheKleinReef said:

With both of yours being lower than you'd like, I personally would start with trying add both a nitrogen based source, and a phosphorus based source, ie foods.

I have tried removing all the filter material and feeding 2-3 times the amount of mysis I normally do. Nothing changed... Nitrate shiuld be 3-5 right? Cause if I keep testing that, and I can get that in a good range. What would then be the best way to get more phosphates...

 

1 minute ago, TheKleinReef said:

i forgot to link this: it's a good read:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

Thanks I'll read it!

[TheKleinReef]

11 minutes ago, RickvD said:

Nitrate shiuld be 3-5 right?

 

 

if you ask this to 100 people, you'll get 100 answers. I like between 5-25ppm

[RickvD]

2 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

f you ask this to 100 people, you'll get 100 answers. I like between 5-25ppm

Alright good to know. Then I know that atleast if it's above 3, and not 50+, I'll be fine.

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, RickvD said:

I attempted to address this by feeding Red Sea AB+ as I had heard it could help raise phosphate and nitrate levels. However, it seems that this approach hasn't been effective enough.

Agreed.

 

From the Red Sea AB+ FAQ...

 

I think they're implying there *is* some source of phosphates, but that it's miniscule...probably insignificant.

 

From other info on their site, it looks like one component (maybe the major component) of the product is amino acids....which, nutritionally, are mostly N and C....which should actually put downward pressure on PO4 levels by increasing overall demand for P.

 

Definitely doesn't seem like the product to use for increasing dissolved nutrient levels.

 

5 hours ago, RickvD said:

Consequently, I'm considering starting to dose Nyos PHOSPHATE+ and NITRATE+ by hand. What would be the most effective method for doing this?

The instructions on the bottle state:

"1 ml NITRATE + increases nitrate levels in a 100 L (25 gal) aquarium by 1 ppm. 1 ml PHOSPHATE + increases phosphate levels in a 100 L (25 gal) aquarium by 0.01 ppm."

 

Should I administer a sufficient amount of both to reach the desired levels, then monitor daily to determine how many days it takes to deplete them and calculate the daily dosage required to maintain these levels consistently?

Each dose can be added all at once...there are no bad side effects.  

 

Dosing can be automated in your ATO water, but may not the best idea if your reservoir gets any light.  In general it's best just to dose directly into the display.  (It's possible you might not have to dose that many times.)

 

In general, test your tank water and calculate your first phosphate dose to target 0.10 ppm.  (Higher ppm is better than lower.  E.g. 0.20 ppm would also be fine.)  

 

Test the tank again 30-60 minutes after dosing to see if phosphate is still at 0.10 ppm.  Calculate a dose to bring the tank back to 0.10 ppm if necessary.  Test again in 30-60 minutes just to be sure – there's usually no need to dose more than once or twice the first day.

 

After that, at least for a few days, test (and dose as-needed) at least once a day to maintain 0.10 ppm.   Your testing and any changes noted in the tank should indicate what you'll do next...which may be to stop dosing sooner than later.

 

It's a good rule of thumb for your corals to take care of phosphate dosing BEFORE nitrate dosing.

 

3 hours ago, RickvD said:

Yea the thing is I have been struggling for months and tried everything else but I can't get it up. And everyone keeps saying that if I dose phosphate I also need to dose nitrate.

Phosphates are the root.  

 

Dosing nitrates can be optional, depending how out of whack the tank in question is.

 

The reality is that there are always trace amount of ammonia from your feedings as well as other nitrogenous compounds in the water like urea and amino acids...so corals are rarely nitrogen starved, even if there are no detectable nitrates, unless conditions are quite extreme.

 

There are MANY uses for dissolved phosphate in a reef, but the example I like to hold in mind when we dose our reefs is a car engine.  Think of nitrates as gasoline and phosphates as the engine oil.  Running out of gas is no fun, but easily remedied by just getting more gas.  But if you run an engine out of oil, that's usually the engine's final run. 💥☠️ (Relates to photosynthesis and bleaching in corals.   Recovering from bleaching is equivalent to our dead car getting a new engine.)

 

In your case, things are actually pretty good overall...so you could start by just correcting phosphate if you wanted to see how that goes.   There's very little risk (or cost) to ALSO dosing nitrates though...or even ammonia, if you wanted to try that.  You're targeting around 5.0 ppm NO3 (or higher) in your tank water however you go about it.  Dosing nitrates has the obvious advantage of being immediately testable as nitrate in the water.  It's unlikely your ammonia test kit will detect the level of ammonia you'd be adding, if you went that way.  IMO dosing ammonia is for someone dosing a lot more material than you're going to be dealing with...and you can always switch later if you think it makes sense.  IMO keep it simple and start with dosing PO4 and NO3.

 

If you want more background info, check out these articles.

[TheKleinReef]

Omg. I agree with mccarroll. Whoa. That never happens 

[Murphs_Reef]

15 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

Omg. I agree with mccarroll. Whoa. That never happens 

When 2 become 1? 

 

But yeah in short with those nitrate numbers I wouldnt be concerned with dosing. It's the phosphate that's lacking in this story.. though I hate dosing phosphate the absolute best think I personally have done to rise them is simply to feed a little heavy on dry food for a few days.. each tank differs though so....  

[RickvD]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:02 PM, mcarroll said:

Dosing can be automated in your ATO water, but may not the best idea if your reservoir gets any light.  In general it's best just to dose directly into the display.  (It's possible you might not have to dose that many times.)

 

In general, test your tank water and calculate your first phosphate dose to target 0.10 ppm.  (Higher ppm is better than lower.  E.g. 0.20 ppm would also be fine.)  

 

Test the tank again 30-60 minutes after dosing to see if phosphate is still at 0.10 ppm.  Calculate a dose to bring the tank back to 0.10 ppm if necessary.  Test again in 30-60 minutes just to be sure – there's usually no need to dose more than once or twice the first day.

 

After that, at least for a few days, test (and dose as-needed) at least once a day to maintain 0.10 ppm.   Your testing and any changes noted in the tank should indicate what you'll do next...which may be to stop dosing sooner than later.

 

It's a good rule of thumb for your corals to take care of phosphate dosing BEFORE nitrate dosing.

Alright thanks! I ordered the Phosphate+ and Nitrate+ as it was on sale for 13 a bottle, and I didn't want to spend another 8 on shipping for the Nitrate+ later on. Everything should be delivered tomorrow so I will start with the Phosphate+ and will monitor the Phosphate and Nitrate levels closely. The moment I see a big drop in Nitrates I will start dosing that too.

 

 

On 9/3/2023 at 3:16 PM, Murphs_Reef said:

though I hate dosing phosphate the absolute best think I personally have done to rise them is simply to feed a little heavy on dry food for a few days.. each tank differs though so.... 

Dosing isn't my favorite option but I have tried removing filtration and giving 3 times the amount of frozen and dry food. It didn't help with the Phosphate at all. I just hope that the moment my Phosphate levels are good, they stay good so I won't have to keep dosing it forever.

[Murphs_Reef]

3 hours ago, RickvD said:

Dosing isn't my favorite option but I have tried removing filtration and giving 3 times the amount of frozen and dry food. It didn't help with the Phosphate at all. I just hope that the moment my Phosphate levels are good, they stay good so I won't have to keep dosing it forever.

That got me thinking. I need to test my nitrate.. it's been a week or so 

[TheKleinReef]

Just be aware dosing nitrate will increase alkalinity. So keep an eye on that number as well. 

[RickvD]

18 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

Just be aware dosing nitrate will increase alkalinity.

Alright will do! Tested it earlier and it was around 8.

 

Someone told me to add copepods to fight the algae, and the first few days I noticed nothing. Today I woke up and I saw pods everywhere, but what I didn't see was algae. Almost all of it was gone. At first I was like shit... Diatoms after all. But through the day they didn't come back. As I now also have almost no algae, I will monitor my phosphates extra closely before I really start dosing it like I normally would. Phosphates are currently still 0. Luckly I decided to start with the AB+ the moment I had more then a few corals, cause now after a few days I can really see the nutrients that were lacking. The few corals I have are opening up more, seem more alive and my frogspawn is getting puffier. I'm getting my Phosphates and Nitrates today, and tomorrow I will start with testing again and then the phosphates dosing and see how that goes.