Bad snail reaction to Microbe-Lift Herbtana!

[phinatic]

I just got my two clowns a couple of days ago. I noticed today that one of them wasn't eating. Shortly after, it had a white stringy and lumpy excretion coming from its anus. Looked pretty clearly to be a reaction to an internal parasite, but I could be wrong. I don't have access to most medicines where I live, but I was able to get hold of some Microbe-Lift Herbtana, which is supposed to be an immune system booster. The packaging and the fish store guy both said it is totally reef safe. I added the first dose today, and within a few hours I was seeing some bad reactions to livestock:

 

Cerith snails - all of them turned over and withdrawn into their shells

Nassarius snails - buried and their snorkels look limp

Astrea and Trochus snails - Still moving around, but not much

Sexy shrimp - Seem normal

Hermit Crabs - Seem lethargic and hidden away

Clownfish - Seem better than pretreatment, but it was only one dose.

 

I am currently prepping a very small quarantine tank for the snails. I only have a 1 gallon QT tank so I didn't use it for the clowns. I cranked up the skimmer to try and pull some of this stuff out of the water faster while I prep for a water change. I want to make sure I am not overracting and adding a bunch of livestock stress into the mix. Any advice? Should I wait it out? Move the snails?

 

Microbe-Lift Herbtana

 https://microbelift.com/product/herbtana-fresh-and-saltwater/

[Snow_Phoenix]

I don't think that product should be used in the tank directly. It's also akin to snake oil over here. Sold cheaply and touted as 'effective' in all types of systems, but often is the opposite. 😞

[BadCrab]

You should be wary of any product that uses similar descriptors.   When a company is selling a scam they'll use specific vague language like "supports" or "strengthens" the "immune system," and you should be especially skeptical of bold treatment claims.  A lot of these will also market themselves to consumers looking for holistic and natural approaches.  Am I saying Herbtana is a scam?  No.  But I am saying I have no idea what it is, and that the MSDS lists nothing helpful under its composition (proprietary! hah.)

I spent many years as a maintenance technician.  This frequently forced me to either be creative with finding affordable solutions or simply making-do with what a client already had.  Sometimes that would include snake-oil treatments.  Additives like this almost universally deplete oxygen from the water column.  Though it will create salt spray, you should be supplementing the tank with an airstone during treatment if there's no skimmer whipping it into the sump.

[phinatic]

I ended up removing the cerith snails to a 1 gallon qt last night, as they looked worse off. I also ran the skimmer to try and rid the tank of this stuff. I plan to take it back to the fish store and just wait it out with the clownfish. I can't get any other medicine beside ich treatments (Fritz Coppersafe and something else from Imagitarium). Neither seemed appropriate for an internal infection.

 

The guy at the store claimed to use Herbtana in the display tanks all the time, and they all have crabs and snails. Really stumped by the response mine had.

[sapling]

assuming it's a legitimate product, maybe the dosing was off or it's a bad batch? I'd hate to think the fish store guy lied to you to sell a product, that's not how you get repeat business or build trust..

 

😕 

 

Im hoping your inverts get thru it without any losses. you didnt mention it and it hasnt been mentioned, so unsure, but if you are just wanting to get whatever it is out of the system, also add activated carbon. its common to do after medication to remove most chemicals out of the water. 

[phinatic]

I wet skimmed a few containers of the stuff out of the tank. Pretty foamy. After that went back to clear, and a normal foam level, I added the ceriths back in and they are cruising around as normal. I wasn't able to locate all of them last night, so I can't say for sure I didn't lose any. They likely buried themselves in the sand when they stressed out. I did take by ChemiPure out of the tank per the Herbtana instructions and forgot to add it back. Thanks for the reminder.

 

Interesting side note, but I am getting a ton of micro-bubbles from the skimmer since adding this stuff. Really not happy with this product. Despite what I heard about it, I couldn't give a clearer recommendation against it.

[mcarroll]

On 5/14/2023 at 3:39 AM, phinatic said:

I just got my two clowns a couple of days ago. I noticed today that one of them wasn't eating. Shortly after, it had a white stringy and lumpy excretion coming from its anus.

Two days isn't a lot of baseline.  

 

What was it eating up to that point?  Sounds like mysis, or maybe brine shrimp?  Did the fish come from far away or local?  

 

It's normal for poop to look similar to what it started out as....greyish for greyish foods, for example.  And the stress of moving can throw off digestion can cause excess mucus for a few days.  The fish might not need more than a few days of TLC, which you were probably already doing.  👍

 

22 hours ago, phinatic said:

just wait it out with the clownfish.

👍 Definitely chill.  🙂 

 

What are your water test numbers like?  Curious to see any number you're collecting.  👍

 

Have you been monitoring ammonia?  If so, how?  (Ammo Alert badge?)

[phinatic]

Water Numbers:

	Temperature	Salinity	pH	Alkalinity	Ammonia	Nitrite	Nitrate	Phosphate	Calcium	Magnesium
Target	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE
Current	79.000	1.025	8.100	161.000	0.000	0.000	5.000	0.125	380.000	1260.000

 

The one "sick" clownfish continues to have the white strings, but is eating a modest amount. The other "healthy" fish has brownish and normal looking poop, but he is eating the pellets I am feeding. They are both eating, but one more easily than the other. He is even eating the pellets off my finger, so he's pretty eager to eat.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, phinatic said:

Water Numbers:

 

	Temperature	Salinity	pH	Alkalinity	Ammonia	Nitrite	Nitrate	Phosphate	Calcium	Magnesium
Target	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE	TRUE
Current	79.000	1.025	8.100	161.000	0.000	0.000	5.000	0.125	380.000	1260.000

 

The one "sick" clownfish continues to have the white strings, but is eating a modest amount. The other "healthy" fish has brownish and normal looking poop, but he is eating the pellets I am feeding. They are both eating, but one more easily than the other. He is even eating the pellets off my finger, so he's pretty eager to eat.

I assume you're testing manually and not using anything like an Ammo Alert for ammonia.

 

Wondering if on Day 2 if you may have had some ammonia from the new fish....and then wondering if the Herbtana might have an effect on pH or otherwise have an effect on the NH3/NH4 balance shifting it toward being more toxic.

 

If you had some ammonia and if it was shifted to be more NH3(more toxic), then IMO it could have provoked a reaction like you saw.  I don't see how the product could have done that by itself by its own effect.

 

If you can get a Seachem Ammo Alert, they are great to have after you add fish to a new tank.  Without going through the traditional testing process at all you can know at any given moment whether there's ammonia building up.

 

4 hours ago, phinatic said:

The one "sick" clownfish continues to have the white strings, but is eating a modest amount. The other "healthy" fish has brownish and normal looking poop, but he is eating the pellets I am feeding. They are both eating, but one more easily than the other. He is even eating the pellets off my finger, so he's pretty eager to eat.

Sounds like things are heading in the right direction!  Keep up the steady observations and TLC!  🙂 

[phinatic]

3 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

If you can get a Seachem Ammo Alert

I do have one of those in addition to the colormetric tests. My ceriths are back out and about. Only missing 1 cerith and 1 hermit crab. Everyone else seems to be back to normal.

[phinatic]

14 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

If you had some ammonia and if it was shifted to be more NH3(more toxic), then IMO it could have provoked a reaction like you saw.  I don't see how the product could have done that by itself by its own effect.

I like this theory. It makes sense with the fish being new and the increased feeding levels. Could have been an inopportune time to administer that supplement. Add to that, the removal of the carbon and stopping the skimmer... 

 

Note to self: Even if the medicine is "reef safe", don't put it in your reef. There are just too many variables that can be thrown out of balance.