A confusion concerning Dinos and Cyanos

[P. mandevillei]

I’m rather new to the field, and after reading quite a few articles on the cause of algae outbreak, I have some problems about the difference of preferred water conditions of dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria.

 

Cyano is known to thrive in water rich in organics. And while most articles mention that Dino breaks out due to deficiencies of no3 and po4, from a converse perspective it also suggests a relatively high level of organic matters (thus the imbalance).

 

So what is the difference in the preferred water parameters of the two kinds?

 

Here’s my hypothesis:

 

Common cyanos and dinos in our tanks are able to both build organics by photosynthesis and directly capitalize on dissolved organic matters. Cyanos are prokaryotic bacteria, as with the name, while Dinos are eukaryotic protists, which have chloroplasts that the former don’t, thus better able to preform photosynthesis.

 

Could it be possible that dinos thrive with a level of organics that’s higher than normal but lower than that preferred by Cyanos, because they can compensate the lack of organics by photosynthesis better? And their ability to directly use organics gives them an edge over other photosynthetic algae in organic rich waters?

 

Does any of what I wrote sound plausible to you?

[mcarroll]

Check out the first post here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/ and be sure to check out the references I linked.

 

In tanks that have been "nuked" it is actually common for dino's and cyano to co-bloom together.....and in that state, pretty much nothing else will grow.  Gives you an idea of what cyano are capable of though.

 

Thankfully there aren't THAT many examples of tanks that were "nuked" to that degree...but the examples are in that thread if you want to see how they went.

 

Photosynthesis is no joke for the organism that do it....it's not unlike running a nuclear reactor in your basement......things are great when conditions are right – excess power for everything!!!  But when conditions no longer support that reactor properly, things tend to get really dead.

 

I actually think that dino's are NOT well adapted for photosynthesis (a trait they supposedly inherited IIRC).  In turn, that is a big reason for their (our pest dino's in particular) snotting/matting behavior...which also relates directly to their generation of toxins....and their sensitivity to changes in availability of major dissolved nutrients. (eg phosphate).  It's interesting to see how the Symbiodinium in our corals are similar and how they are different from pest dino's.   Their sensitivities are similar to our pest dino's, but Symbiodinium's adaptations are different...making them compatible with symbiotic relationships.  (Clams, corals and others!)

 

Contrast Dino's with Cyano, which all things considered might be THE BEST-ADAPTED to photosynthesis. (ie seems like cyano doesn't care AT ALL about dissolved nutrients...it can tolerate EXTREME levels of hydrogen peroxide, etc)

 

I look at cyano as the hermit crab of algae.....IMO it's a generalist opportunistic scavenger.  So, much like the hermit crab, it shows up whenever there's available food.  Cyano are found *everywhere*.

 

What dino's are GOOD at is eating.  They have literally THOUSANDS of specific (ie species level) adaptations related to modes of heterotrophic feeding.  I suspect our pest dino's are not as good at that as most other dino's...but it's still part of their programming.  Even the photosynthetic dino's are actually mixotrophic in most cases....maybe all cases.

[P. mandevillei]

Thanks for your explanation and the links! That’s a HUGE load of information… Took me some time to sort out. In fact I’m still reading the papers now lol.

 

So I figured cyano can perform N-fixation, which probably makes them inclined to bloom in phosphate-rich waters. But leave that aside and focus on Dino’s first. I’m well convinced of Dino’s ability to thrive in sterile conditions by heterotrophy. However, one of the papers also pointed out that high concentrations of organic N correlates to harmful algal blooms dominated by Dino’s. And consider my own tank, which suffered a Dino outbreak after an anemone died and was left in the water for some days, suggesting extra (organic) N favored Dino growth. So maybe high organic N and low inorganic N/P are both sufficient conditions for its bloom?

[Koleswrath]

This could support the findings that Amino acid supplements seem to worsen Dino outbreaks. “Food” for thought 😂.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, P. mandevillei said:

Thanks for your explanation and the links! That’s a HUGE load of information… Took me some time to sort out. In fact I’m still reading the papers now lol.

 

So I figured cyano can perform N-fixation, which probably makes them inclined to bloom in phosphate-rich waters. But leave that aside and focus on Dino’s first. I’m well convinced of Dino’s ability to thrive in sterile conditions by heterotrophy. However, one of the papers also pointed out that high concentrations of organic N correlates to harmful algal blooms dominated by Dino’s. And consider my own tank, which suffered a Dino outbreak after an anemone died and was left in the water for some days, suggesting extra (organic) N favored Dino growth. So maybe high organic N and low inorganic N/P are both sufficient conditions for its bloom?

+1

 

Nutrient shifts are generally one of the triggers (temperature is another)....it varies exactly with the species.   They are all generally seasonal in the wild.  

 

Many reefs are located in places where there is seasonal upwelling that brings lots of nutrients up to the reef....organic among them.  

 

So your theory is good IMO.  Very possible.  

 

We test for N and P so we know what they are like during a bloom....but nobody can test for organics, so we don't know about that condition in our tanks.  (Salifert once had an "organics" test kit, if I recall correctly, but I never read anything good about it.  Not sure what it was actually testing.)

 

Our tanks operate like it was the same day of the year every day though, no changes, so blooms can hypothetically go on unending, if allowed.

 

Think of nutrient dosing like a manufactured seasonal upwelling event.  Just without most of its other features like coldness, misc. organics, et al.

 

Have you already gotten to "Putting the N in Dinoflagellates"?

 

2 hours ago, Koleswrath said:

This could support the findings that Amino acid supplements seem to worsen Dino outbreaks. “Food” for thought 😂.

IMO amino's, which are mostly composed of carbon and nitrogen + trace elements, are rapidly consumed by bacteria, growth of which keeps N and P levels nailed to the proverbial floor (nothing else can drive levels so low).  Then, under the circumstances, all that bacteria ends up as food for dino's.   Rinse.  Repeat.

 

You have to admit that dino's are GOOD at surviving.....it's a good strategy!!  (It's just toxic murder on virtually everything else....literally.)

[P. mandevillei]

On 3/16/2023 at 1:47 AM, mcarroll said:

Have you already gotten to "Putting the N in Dinoflagellates"?

Yeah… actually that’s the only article I’ve finished from beginning to end so far. All these interactions between microorganisms are truly intriguing, and overwhelming!

 

A further deduction: there’re all kinds of commercial “algae remover” (for example Waste-away from Aquarium Systems), and I believe they function by providing insoluble carbon sources to stimulate bacteria growth and can remove nitrate, phosphate and organics all at the same time (when using waste-away I observed deterioration of originally healthy Xenia, and since it feeds on dissolved organic matters there must be a plunge in organics). What if I use one of these during a dino bloom and keep dosing NO3 and PO4? It could theoretically help lower the organic levels even faster without dragging down N and P. But If dinos are able to hunt these bacteria, I’m not sure if it will mean any difference.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, P. mandevillei said:

Yeah… actually that’s the only article I’ve finished from beginning to end so far. All these interactions between microorganisms are truly intriguing, and overwhelming!

 

A further deduction: there’re all kinds of commercial “algae remover” (for example Waste-away from Aquarium Systems), and I believe they function by providing insoluble carbon sources to stimulate bacteria growth and can remove nitrate, phosphate and organics all at the same time (when using waste-away I observed deterioration of originally healthy Xenia, and since it feeds on dissolved organic matters there must be a plunge in organics). What if I use one of these during a dino bloom and keep dosing NO3 and PO4? It could theoretically help lower the organic levels even faster without dragging down N and P. But If dinos are able to hunt these bacteria, I’m not sure if it will mean any difference.

Like most of Dr Tim's products, "Waste Away"  is claimed to be a bacterial additive.  But as we know with marketing and proprietary products, there could be carbon-source (or worse!) additions as well.....not sure myself.

 

Folks have tried those products vs dino's more than once without good results (or with bad results) but I can't recall whether anyone tried while systematically ALSO dosing N and P.  

 

You could spend a few minutes searching my dino thread if you really want to see how it went in those cases – could be some "meat left on that bone" if you want to experiment!  👍

 

My prediction is that an established dino bloom would kill or eat whatever is in the product as quickly as you could dose it...same as (IMO) happens with any other bacterial additive dosed in this phase.  But that could be (dis)proven if you ended up doing some experiments.  👍

[P. mandevillei]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:52 AM, mcarroll said:

Like most of Dr Tim's products, "Waste Away"  is claimed to be a bacterial additive.  But as we know with marketing and proprietary products, there could be carbon-source (or worse!) additions as well.....not sure myself.

 

Folks have tried those products vs dino's more than once without good results (or with bad results) but I can't recall whether anyone tried while systematically ALSO dosing N and P.  

 

You could spend a few minutes searching my dino thread if you really want to see how it went in those cases – could be some "meat left on that bone" if you want to experiment!  👍

 

My prediction is that an established dino bloom would kill or eat whatever is in the product as quickly as you could dose it...same as (IMO) happens with any other bacterial additive dosed in this phase.  But that could be (dis)proven if you ended up doing some experiments.  👍

I just finished reading another four papers in the links you provided, and I think I have to reconsider some of my previous thoughts.

 

According to Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom, direct carbon source dosing nearly always stimulates Dino bloom, while urea and nitrate suppress it or have no impact. The tetravalent C in urea, CO(NH2)2, cannot be oxidized to produce energy, so urea can be viewed as strict nitrogen source. The reason why amino acid could stimulate Dino bloom might be that they could be respired and used as carbon source for energy. Which is why I speculate (back to my original standpoint😂) that Dino blooms are actually prompted by organics. It can happen in both nitrate-rich and -poor waters, only that nitrate deficiency gives Dino’s a further edge over other phytoplanktons.

 

The importance of C can also be reflected by Dino’s C:N ratio, which is higher than the Redfield Ratio. (The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate)
 

The effect of reducing C has been kind of verified in my newly established 15L nano tank. First there were diatom blooms, suggesting high N and P. Then Dino’s appeared and began to take hold. I placed a bag of activated carbon in the filter, and after a few days Dino’s disappeared overnight. Now there’s only diatom. I think the fast disappearing of Dino’s in this case could be attributed to both lowered C and elevated N.

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, P. mandevillei said:

I just finished reading another four papers in the links you provided, and I think I have to reconsider some of my previous thoughts.

 

According to Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom, direct carbon source dosing nearly always stimulates Dino bloom, while urea and nitrate suppress it or have no impact. The tetravalent C in urea, CO(NH2)2, cannot be oxidized to produce energy, so urea can be viewed as strict nitrogen source. The reason why amino acid could stimulate Dino bloom might be that they could be respired and used as carbon source for energy. Which is why I speculate (back to my original standpoint😂) that Dino blooms are actually prompted by organics. It can happen in both nitrate-rich and -poor waters, only that nitrate deficiency gives Dino’s a further edge over other phytoplanktons.

 

The importance of C can also be reflected by Dino’s C:N ratio, which is higher than the Redfield Ratio. (The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate)
 

The effect of reducing C has been kind of verified in my newly established 15L nano tank. First there were diatom blooms, suggesting high N and P. Then Dino’s appeared and began to take hold. I placed a bag of activated carbon in the filter, and after a few days Dino’s disappeared overnight. Now there’s only diatom. I think the fast disappearing of Dino’s in this case could be attributed to both lowered C and elevated N.

Sounds pretty logical, mostly what we already know from all the posts on that thread.  (Activated carbon and KNO3 are usual recommended additions during a dino bloom.)

 

Only thing you're missing is some replication to see if your organics theory holds water.   😉   (Worth the time IMO if it's something you're thinking about.)

 

I don't recall to what extent anyone has experimented with urea as a nitrogen source...could be room for experimentation there too if it's not too hard to get.

Edited March 26, 2023 by mcarroll
some more thoughts

[Koleswrath]

Could we tie this into the typical held belief that live rock diversity does a better job of preventing massive dino blooms? Seems to me that in unprepared live rock there is a massive amount of organics being released from die off in the first few months of a live rock tank but relatively low instances of dinos. 

Simply no free space for them to abundantly colonize? 

 

[P. mandevillei]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:30 AM, Koleswrath said:

Could we tie this into the typical held belief that live rock diversity does a better job of preventing massive dino blooms? Seems to me that in unprepared live rock there is a massive amount of organics being released from die off in the first few months of a live rock tank but relatively low instances of dinos. 

Simply no free space for them to abundantly colonize? 

 

During cycling, diatoms are usually the first to bloom. I read in the paper Putting the N in Dinoflagellates that rich N generally gives diatoms an edge. Since amino acids are both carbon and nitrogen sources, they may fuel the competition between dino’s and diatoms. But in my opinion, what’s more likely is that heterotrophic microbes in live rocks would decompose the organics to a large degree, so what’s released is mostly urea and nitrate and phosphate. This would tip the scales for diatom. So diversity certainly helps.

 

One thing I don’t really understand is the causation between some algae and bacteria species’ dominance and dino’s inability to bloom. Is it because of some interspecific suppression (biological), or simply because the other species have taken up the nutrients dino’s require and made the water hostile to dino’s (environmental), or maybe both?

[mcarroll]

On 4/14/2023 at 9:55 PM, P. mandevillei said:

During cycling, diatoms are usually the first to bloom. I read in the paper Putting the N in Dinoflagellates that rich N generally gives diatoms an edge. Since amino acids are both carbon and nitrogen sources, they may fuel the competition between dino’s and diatoms. But in my opinion, what’s more likely is that heterotrophic microbes in live rocks would decompose the organics to a large degree, so what’s released is mostly urea and nitrate and phosphate. This would tip the scales for diatom. So diversity certainly helps.

Good if you have it (diversity).   But if you have a dino bloom that's actually become established, my guess is that heterotrophs (and all their friends) are the first to go ☠️ thanks to dinotoxin.  At this point I suspect it's down to them and (cyano)bacteria.

 

On 4/14/2023 at 9:55 PM, P. mandevillei said:

One thing I don’t really understand is the causation between some algae and bacteria species’ dominance and dino’s inability to bloom. Is it because of some interspecific suppression (biological), or simply because the other species have taken up the nutrients dino’s require and made the water hostile to dino’s (environmental), or maybe both?

Diatoms apparently product phosphonates, which have been shown to suppress dino blooms, at least in the wild.   I'm pretty sure there has been only mixed success (at best) in aquariums....we don't ID diatom species for one thing, so no idea if we see phosphonate producing types or not.

 

It's also just about impossible to tell whether suppression effects would be from a mystery substance or from competition (all forms).....we don't sample for anything unless there's an algae bloom happening, and we don't (typically) ID anything other than dino's.  If we sampled healthy substrates in healthy tanks more AND had a better idea as to the ID of "the usual suspects" that should be found on healthy live rock....we'd have a point of reference that would help A LOT.