New tank and cycle questions

[HATZO1]

So I have a new Maxspect Dice Nano AIO.  Just started  the cycle process using Dr Tims and a raw shrimp. We are on day 2  and I noticed what looks like white particles on the surface of the water in the tank. The tank is also cloudy today and I think some odor.  Not sure what’s going on . There is a film on the returns and I think it’s  what is also circulating in the tank.

Any input is appreciated. I’ve been out of the hobby for awhile .

Thanks 

[Dave21]

I'm not sure about Dr. Tim's but I've used Fluvals bottled bacteria twice now and the bottle is filled with particles that settle around the tank for a day or so after. They eventually disappear. 

 

Also did you put the shrimp in a media bag? If not it might be falling apart. This happened when I cycled my first tank with a shrimp. I ended up putting it in a media bag which prevented this. 

 

Also just a suggestion but after using a raw shrimp on my first tank cycle, i tried bottled ammonia on my second tank (currently 10 days into the cycle) and the process seems to be going much quicker and easier to control. 

[HATZO1]

Thanks for input. Yes the shrimp is in a fine media bag lol . Will probably get by the LFS to pick up some ammonia this weekend . 

[seabass]

In my opinion, pull the dead shrimp out of your tank now.  Rotting flesh (or fish food) will provide ammonia; but it will also add excess organics which can cause issues (like cyanobacteria) down the road.  Plus, there is practically no way to accurately control the amount of ammonia or phosphate that you are introducing.

 

Also, instead of using DrTim's fishless cycling instructions, I recommend that you:

• Dose total ammonia up to 1 ppm
• Wait for total ammonia to drop to 0.25 ppm
• Repeat until your tank can process 1 ppm down to 0.25 ppm within 24 hours

It's nice and simple; and afterwards, your tank will have built up a biofilter capable of handling a light bio-load.  Then, if nutrient levels are too high, you can use water changes to reduce them.  Or if you will be keeping corals and the nutrient levels are too low, you can dose critical nutrients to raise them up to minimum levels.

 

Adding a viable bottled nitrifying bacteria product can be enough by itself when you add livestock slowly enough.  However, building up the biofilter using fishless cycling will help ensure that ammonia won't build up after you add a small bio-load to your tank.  But only add ammonia to a tank without any non-bacterial life in it.

[debbeach13]

Welcome back.

[HATZO1]

Thanks . I’m happy to be back.

[mcarroll]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:16 PM, HATZO1 said:

So I have a new Maxspect Dice Nano AIO.

👍 Cool tank!

 

On 1/31/2023 at 9:16 PM, HATZO1 said:

Just started  the cycle process using Dr Tims and a raw shrimp.

👎🤢

 

On 1/31/2023 at 9:16 PM, HATZO1 said:

We are on day 2  and I noticed what looks like white particles on the surface of the water in the tank. The tank is also cloudy today and I think some odor.  Not sure what’s going on . There is a film on the returns and I think it’s  what is also circulating in the tank.

This is what happens when you rot meat in your tank – just like when a fish dies.  Not a surprise.  GROSS!

 

On 1/31/2023 at 9:16 PM, HATZO1 said:

Any input is appreciated. I’ve been out of the hobby for awhile .

Thanks 

I would water-blast the rocks and sand and then do a 100% water change to get that whole mess out of the tank.  Refill with new saltwater and restart as suggested below...

 

Sorry in advance for the length of this post.  🤷‍♂️ 

 

Of all the possible ways, I can't understand how this became popular.  It's a bummer that this method is even out there for folks to bump into, but hey that's the intarWebs for ya.  Sorry about that!  😬

 

I mean how is starting off with a dead animal supposed to be a great beginning for living animals?  It's so wrong on so many levels...yet it gets promoted. 🤷‍♂️ LOL

 

One way to avoid that kind of start is to be old-fashioned and read up on one (or more) of the books which just about all folks used to read when they started in the saltwater hobby.  

 

Martin Moe's book "Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder" was and is one of the best, most complete starter books.  I currently have a 9th edition (c2009) paperback copy and it's updated with correct reefing practices and concepts.  There's an eBook version these days too, if that floats your boat. 😉 There are many other suggested possibilities.  I suggest reading them all, of course, but that's a whole other thing.

 

One of the primary goals in starting a new tropical aquarium of any kind, up there will supplying heat, is to avoid exposing your animals to a harmful ammonia spike.

 

The simplest way to do that is to not let the ammonia level get high to begin with.  It's completely under your control, after all!  👍

 

Easy to accomplish simply by not overloading the tank with a large bio-load.  

 

Problem solved.

 

How to do this isn't totally mysterious IMO...

 

Start stocking the smallest critters, and slowly progress up to the largest...allowing the tank's microbial population (including nitrifiers, etc) to time to grow.  

 

By Week 4 or 5 your "bio-filter" will be complete, almost no matter what you do....30-40 days.  As long as you don't rush things, it's practically foolproof.  

 

How is this foolproof, when methods like fishless cycling are so full of problems?  (If you look, there are always LOTS of threads on the problems folks have trying to do it.)

 

The amount of time (30-40 days), BTW, relates to the reproduction rate of bacteria....starting from near-zero populations, it takes that long for them to achieve "critical mass".  After that their population can easily match the bio-load of the tank.  It's very predictable for this reason.

 

(BTW, Dr Tim created his product to shorten the 30-40 day cycle.  "Fishless cycling" wasn't the concept at all.  He says fishless is unnecessary on his site.)

 

Cycling with fish makes perfect sense when you see it in action...

🤪

 

But seriously...

 

In general, adding a critter per week is safe more or less, and won't overload the tank's capacity, depending on the specific critter you're talking about...  Pods?  Snails?  Corals?  Fish?   You can probably predict which of those are going to produce the most ammonia, which will need to be added one at a time, and which can be add a few (or many) at a time.  

 

Coupled with a Seachem AmmoAlert and some ammonia detoxifier "just in case", and you really have no worries at all.  

 

Virtually zero chances of an ammonia spike happening at all.  

 

You're properly equipped to keep your animals safe while you remedy the situation even if it does happen. 

 

Your bacterial population just grows in naturally over time as you do nothing more than add your bio-load.  (...albeit on a timed schedule.)

 

Simple.

 

Adding your Dr Tim's at the time of your livestock addition is the correct usage of the product, BTW.  That allows the bacteria to start matching your fish's ammonia levels almost immediately since the population is no longer starting from near-zero.  You do have to follow instructions...and I still don't recommend this for a reef tank...but it DOES work.

 

(BTW, starting with real live rock that was shipped underwater OR that has been thoroughly pre-cleaned is the only "best" way to have an instantly cycled reef IMO.  Anything else is a more like a regular fish tank with corals.)

[seabass]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Coupled with a Seachem AmmoAlert and some ammonia detoxifier "just in case", and you really have no worries at all.

I've read that products like Seachem Prime don't actually detoxify ammonia; they are just dechlorinators which make this false claim.  The truth is that ammonia poisoning is quite rare, and even with elevated ammonia levels, the hardy livestock which is sold to the public rarely dies from too much NH3.  However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about high ammonia levels, which could still cause unseen damage to the fish in our care.  I believe we should make an effort to keep ammonia levels within a safe range.

[brandon429]

Was this rock dry or wet when you put it in your tank, that matters in planning

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

I've read that products like Seachem Prime don't actually detoxify ammonia; they are just dechlorinators which make this false claim.

As always, it seems, ammonia makes for an interesting  topic.  🙂 

 

Disclaimer: I've only used dechlorinators (eg Ampule, Prime, etc)....never needed an ammonia lock type product (eg Ammo Lock, AmGuard, etc).  But I'll Google up a storm!! 😉 

 

You may have read this Ammo Lock FAQ on Seachem's website at some point:

 

https://www.seachem.com/amguard.php

Quote

When should I use AmGuard™ and why would I use it instead of Seachem Prime®?

A: AmGuard™ is ideal for use in emergency ammonia spike situations. It will bind with ammonia for up to 72 hours and can control ammonia at higher concentrations. AmGuard™ will also remove chlorine and chloramine but Prime® has a wider range of benefits.

 

 

And from the Prime FAQ:

 

https://www.seachem.com/prime.php

Quote

I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?

A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime® complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution 😉 is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia).

 

The other FAQ items for both products are also fairly interesting, if you wanna click away for a few minutes.

 

A little further into their Ammo Lock webpage, a little more elaboration on the testing angle where they share a few more tidbits:

 

Quote

Traditional ammonia test kits convert all ammonia to free ammonia by raising pH to 12–14; at this pH AmGuard™ cannot function and thus a false positive reading will result.

 

So if you read elsewhere, such as user testimony, I can understand there being a lot of false positives/complaints "it didn't work" reported...by folks who don't read the directions. 😉 

 

I'd be surprised if Seachem's claims of 72 hours protection are complete BS.  It's not supposed to eliminate the ammonia, after all – just give you time to react appropriately.  The directions on the bottle (and website) are pretty clear how to handle the ammonia present, and would probably need to be followed as closely as possible for best results.

 

🤷‍♂️ 3 days doesn't seem too crazy a claim. 🤷‍♂️

 

😉 "3 days" makes me think they know that all failures happen on Friday after the fish store closes.  72 hours gets you through until Monday. 😉 

 

I'm guessing (from a little googling) that maybe it's some sulphur molecule or compound to react with the ammonia to create ammonium sulphate which I'm guessing is fairly inert, but not stable in the tank environment much past 3 days?  (I am not a chemist. 😄)

 

BTW, API Ammo-Lock is a similiar product.  API published a study that was done to prove that whatever is in it is not harmful and that it works, at least on fish cell tissue cultures.  It's a consumer-oriented report on the study, so it doesn't really explain much else, but it's something! 🤷‍♂️

 

1 hour ago, seabass said:

I believe we should make an effort to keep ammonia levels within a safe range.

Absolutely.  

 

There's no real reason that ammonia ever has to be detectable, let alone does it need to be outside the safe range. 👍

 

[seabass]

Matt, check this out:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-3-2-1-prime-safe-and-ammonia/

[mcarroll]

17 hours ago, seabass said:

Matt, check this out:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-3-2-1-prime-safe-and-ammonia/

Wow. 🤪  

 

What about this instead?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

 

 

 

[seabass]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

What about this instead?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#17

It appears that hydroxymethanesulfonate can bind ammonia into another form, which is hopefully safe.

 

Not fully disclosing the contents of their products allows companies to make certain claims which most customers assume to be true.  However, it also makes others doubt these claims, especially when the company can't adequately explain them or contradicts themselves.

 

There are many examples of how companies mis-market their products to increase sales.  And there are a few which seem to simply lie about them (what they do or what's in them).  Unfortunately, even well respected companies are sometimes guilty of false advertising.

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, seabass said:

Not fully disclosing the contents of their products allows companies to make certain claims which most customers assume to be true.  However, it also makes others doubt these claims, especially when the company can't adequately explain them or contradicts themselves.

 

There are many examples of how companies mis-market their products to increase sales.  And there are a few which seem to simply lie about them (what they do or what's in them).  Unfortunately, even well respected companies are sometimes guilty of false advertising.

True.

 

Marketing knows almost no bounds.

 

BTW, there was no mention of any of those chemicals when I was google scholaring for "ammonia detoxification" or "ammonia neutralization".  Nada.

 

14 hours ago, seabass said:

It appears that hydroxymethanesulfonate can bind ammonia into another form, which is hopefully safe.

Hm.  

 

CH3NaO4S  Apparently aka formaldehyde sodium bisulfite.

 

In one thing I found they were testing hydroxymethanesulfonate for use in lowering TAN (total ammonia nitrogen) during rotifer breeding, with good results – that seems like a positive sign!

 

In a related topic, Yucca schidigera extract has apparently also been tested for similar purposes, also with good results.  Apparently this stuff is used pretty widely in agriculture for detox ammonia.  Wow!

 

Not sure this will ever benefit us, but this guy is testing a device that blasts ammonia straight out of the water as N2 gas!  Far out!!