I only want fish, no corals.

[growsomething]

You are going to have a successful tank with your plan!  And you're going to love watching live rock.  You might get most of the cuc you need in 10lbs of live rock if it is coming from the ocean.  Clowns sort of appear dumb as they may ignore food after it drops below them, so you need something to eat that up.  A few tiny hermits will do the trick, or a worm or 2 if they come in on the rock.

You don't need to wait for bacteria to grow with live rock, it is already all there.  Old live rock threads may talk about needing to pressure wash it, put it in a tub for weeks, then let it rep-populate with bacteria.  This was because the beautiful Fiji or Marshall rock {illegal now} would sit on the beach when it was collected, then get shipped by barge in wet newspaper for weeks before it came in at LA.  There was a ton of die-off and we would get a major cycle when we finally got it.  The rock available now is shippped overnight or in a day or 2, and die-off should be minimal or even non-existent if shipped in water.  Mine was shipped in wet newspaper in one day and I had a tiny cycle.  It was ready for coral or fish in just a couple of days.  I waited longer since it had been 20 or so years since I'd had that old live rock, and wasnt sure how the KP stuff would turn out.  Now, I would put it right in my tank for a FOWLR, do the cycle in there since I'm not worried about coral pests, and put one or two fish in as soon as there is no ammonia.  Maybe others would disagree?

[mcarroll]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:10 AM, IOB said:

Would I still need a CUC with bare bottom?

Yes.  They "manage" all of the surfaces of the tank's interior for you....rock, glass, et al.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 11:10 AM, IOB said:

As for waiting, just to keep it cycle and grow some baacteria.

Waiting (30-40 days) is a good strategy for a fish tank or FOWDR both of which begin with almost sterile filter media – and it works.  Virtually bulletproof.  No added bacteria even required.

 

But for a reef tank that is started with live rock the process will be different, and will depend on the state of the live rock you're getting.  (I.e. Uncured, cured, cleaned, used, etc)

 

If possible when the time comes, post some pics of the live rock.  Some types of rock can be used immediately.  Some needs curing time to allow die-off to stop.  Some needs observation time to catch/ID hitchhikers. Etc.

 

 

[Redreidy]

I'm going to buck the trend here, I have a fish only with "dead rock" system with zero issues. I wouldn't recommend you use live rock. Firstly the use of live rock is incredibly destructive to the marine environment, you are essentially taking away part of the reefs eco system.

 

Secondly Live rock brings lots of nasty things with it which can add unwanted complications down the line. Dry rock works just as well and you can control what you add to the tank, want algae, buy and add algae, want pods you can buy and add pods, want sponges and corals etc etc. 

 

My fish only system runs on two big chunks of dry rock, two powerheads and I have a hang on the back that I turn on for a few hours every couple of days with some fresh filter floss in. I have housed a pair of clowns in this for 3 years now. Its a 16 gal and I do a 10-15% water change every week. You can really over complicate things if you want to. 

[growsomething]

2 hours ago, Redreidy said:

I'm going to buck the trend here, I have a fish only with "dead rock" system with zero issues. I wouldn't recommend you use live rock. Firstly the use of live rock is incredibly destructive to the marine environment, you are essentially taking away part of the reefs eco system.

 

Secondly Live rock brings lots of nasty things with it which can add unwanted complications down the line. Dry rock works just as well and you can control what you add to the tank, want algae, buy and add algae, want pods you can buy and add pods, want sponges and corals etc etc. 

 

My fish only system runs on two big chunks of dry rock, two powerheads and I have a hang on the back that I turn on for a few hours every couple of days with some fresh filter floss in. I have housed a pair of clowns in this for 3 years now. Its a 16 gal and I do a 10-15% water change every week. You can really over complicate things if you want to. 

It's good to hear from different sides of an issue, and thanks for this input.  Imo we make things harder on the tank ecosystem and therefore the fish with a sterile start. 

To your 1st point it has been illegal for many years to collect natural reef rock.  All live rock is man-made or mined, then "planted" in bare state or federal leases far from reefs for a few years before harvesting.

Secondly, if there are no corals planned, what might be the complications live rock brings to a FOWLR?

Cudos on multiple years of success from a dry start.

[IOB]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:24 PM, mcarroll said:

Yes.  They "manage" all of the surfaces of the tank's interior for you....rock, glass, et al.

 

Waiting (30-40 days) is a good strategy for a fish tank or FOWDR both of which begin with almost sterile filter media – and it works.  Virtually bulletproof.  No added bacteria even required.

 

But for a reef tank that is started with live rock the process will be different, and will depend on the state of the live rock you're getting.  (I.e. Uncured, cured, cleaned, used, etc)

 

If possible when the time comes, post some pics of the live rock.  Some types of rock can be used immediately.  Some needs curing time to allow die-off to stop.  Some needs observation time to catch/ID hitchhikers. Etc.

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I stopped by my neighbor fish store and was told they have white or purple live rock.

 

Any idea what the difference is?

[IOB]

5 hours ago, Redreidy said:

I'm going to buck the trend here, I have a fish only with "dead rock" system with zero issues. I wouldn't recommend you use live rock. Firstly the use of live rock is incredibly destructive to the marine environment, you are essentially taking away part of the reefs eco system.

 

Secondly Live rock brings lots of nasty things with it which can add unwanted complications down the line. Dry rock works just as well and you can control what you add to the tank, want algae, buy and add algae, want pods you can buy and add pods, want sponges and corals etc etc. 

 

My fish only system runs on two big chunks of dry rock, two powerheads and I have a hang on the back that I turn on for a few hours every couple of days with some fresh filter floss in. I have housed a pair of clowns in this for 3 years now. Its a 16 gal and I do a 10-15% water change every week. You can really over complicate things if you want to. 

Thanks for this info. This is kinda what I was thinking.

More food for though!

Thanks again.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, IOB said:

Thanks for the reply. I stopped by my neighbor fish store and was told they have white or purple live rock.

 

Any idea what the difference is?

Good question.  😐🤔 I didn't expect the answer to come via color coding. 🤪🤷‍♂️

 

I think the question you want to ask them may need to be more specific.  

 

How about:  "Is any of your rock from the ocean?"

 

Next question can be:  "What color is it?"

 

😉 

[IOB]

4 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Good question.  😐🤔 I didn't expect the answer to come via color coding. 🤪🤷‍♂️

 

I think the question you want to ask them may need to be more specific.  

 

How about:  "Is any of your rock from the ocean?"

 

Next question can be:  "What color is it?"

 

😉

Roger that.

 

Also, is it possible to mix live and dry rock in the same tank? Any dangers?

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, IOB said:

Roger that.

 

Also, is it possible to mix live and dry rock in the same tank? Any dangers?

Possible.

 

Live Rock, "live rock", Dead Rock and Dry Rock

Some live rock is actually dead rock which has only been tank cultured, probably only with bacteria, and probably only for a very short time/a year or less. It's not going to make a huge difference if you layer a little dry rock in with this.  You're using the rock as filter media though – like Seachem Matrix or Marine Pure.  (Notice those guys don't go around claiming those products are "live rock" or anything even remotely close.  Dead rock (and Matrix, Siporax, Marine Pure) is filter media – not the same as real live rock.  Using actual live rock was a revelation for the hobby from using filters and filter media.

 

For the best experience, depending on your goals and the live rock in question, mixing dead/dry with ACTUAL live rock is not recommended though.  Generally, using all live rock is a better bet, if possible.

 

The Problem

The more bare a rock is, the more likely an algae spore is to settle and thrive on it.  So adding dead rock to a live rock setup actually cancels one of the benefits of going with live rock in the first place, which is avoiding major algae blooms.

 

So, for example, if your live rock is TOTALLY LOADED with life, never sees air between the ocean and your tank, and has little-to-no die-off when you get it into the tank, then the odds of having an algae outbreak can get very close to zero.  There is simply no room on your rock for algae to grow in any significant amount.

 

On the other hand, a tank full of bare dead rock that is under reef lighting and which has a nutrient source (eg snails, fish, etc) is practically guaranteed to have an intense algae outbreak.

 

The Answer

Your mileage may vary.  CUC rules still apply.

 

😉 

 

But seriously, since you're doing a different twist on things from most of us (FOWLR) you'll have to decide how much of this matters.  Will you have reef-intensity lighting?  Maybe eventually?  If you have lower lighting (very low), then algae tends to be less of a problem overall.  This is why fish tank lighting is usually so dim compared to reef tanks.  But the brightness of a reef tank is often one of the attracting features.   ...hence "your mileage may vary".  👍

[IOB]

51 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Possible.

 

Live Rock, "live rock", Dead Rock and Dry Rock

Some live rock is actually dead rock which has only been tank cultured, probably only with bacteria, and probably only for a very short time/a year or less. It's not going to make a huge difference if you layer a little dry rock in with this.  You're using the rock as filter media though – like Seachem Matrix or Marine Pure.  (Notice those guys don't go around claiming those products are "live rock" or anything even remotely close.  Dead rock (and Matrix, Siporax, Marine Pure) is filter media – not the same as real live rock.  Using actual live rock was a revelation for the hobby from using filters and filter media.

 

For the best experience, depending on your goals and the live rock in question, mixing dead/dry with ACTUAL live rock is not recommended though.  Generally, using all live rock is a better bet, if possible.

 

The Problem

The more bare a rock is, the more likely an algae spore is to settle and thrive on it.  So adding dead rock to a live rock setup actually cancels one of the benefits of going with live rock in the first place, which is avoiding major algae blooms.

 

So, for example, if your live rock is TOTALLY LOADED with life, never sees air between the ocean and your tank, and has little-to-no die-off when you get it into the tank, then the odds of having an algae outbreak can get very close to zero.  There is simply no room on your rock for algae to grow in any significant amount.

 

On the other hand, a tank full of bare dead rock that is under reef lighting and which has a nutrient source (eg snails, fish, etc) is practically guaranteed to have an intense algae outbreak.

 

The Answer

Your mileage may vary.  CUC rules still apply.

 

😉

 

But seriously, since you're doing a different twist on things from most of us (FOWLR) you'll have to decide how much of this matters.  Will you have reef-intensity lighting?  Maybe eventually?  If you have lower lighting (very low), then algae tends to be less of a problem overall.  This is why fish tank lighting is usually so dim compared to reef tanks.  But the brightness of a reef tank is often one of the attracting features.   ...hence "your mileage may vary".  👍

Re: Algae 

Is an algae outbreak that bad? (Using dry only)

I mean, I ain't gonna have fish in the tank for a while. 

If I mixed rocks, are you saying that the algae that would grow on the dry would "take over" the live rock and remove some of it's benefits?

 

As for lights, I'm just gonna use basic aquarium lights. Nothing meant for growing anything. Just for lighting.

 

Thanks for all the help, BTW.

I appreciate it.

 

 

[growsomething]

Fyi I mixed live and dry rock in my tank, and yes, algae does cover the dry rock for a while, but it eventually looked just like the live rock as the live rock seeded it with all the life on/in it.

[Tamberav]

1 hour ago, IOB said:

Re: Algae 

Is an algae outbreak that bad? (Using dry only)

I mean, I ain't gonna have fish in the tank for a while. 

If I mixed rocks, are you saying that the algae that would grow on the dry would "take over" the live rock and remove some of it's benefits?

 

As for lights, I'm just gonna use basic aquarium lights. Nothing meant for growing anything. Just for lighting.

 

Thanks for all the help, BTW.

I appreciate it.

 

 

 

You should expect the rocks to turn brown with diatoms, this is NORMAL. It is like poop brown ugly lol Sometimes you might get a little green hair algae, it even grows on the grass a little. A clean up crew will eat both and this brown and green generally shows up a bit after the cycle is done. 

 

The algae outbreak can be pretty bad for some and not so bad for others. You can always pluck algae so it is short as the snails have a much easier time eating the short stuff. 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, IOB said:

Is an algae outbreak that bad? (Using dry only)

At the very least, it creates A LOT of cleanup work for you if it happens.  There can certainly be other downsides as well.

 

On the other hand, our hobby has been around a LONG TIME – back in the day, many algae used to be appreciated as "just another citizen of the reef".  You can certainly adopt a stance more in that direction if you wanted to – especially if you aren't doing corals "some day".

 

3 hours ago, IOB said:

As for lights, I'm just gonna use basic aquarium lights. Nothing meant for growing anything. Just for lighting.

Then like I said, the likelihood and intensity of any algae outbreak should be MUCH smaller.  

 

It may be interesting to note the actual power usage and/or intensity of the lights you end up getting.  You can take measurements of power usage with something like a KillAWatt meter.  A lux meter is fine for measuring light intensity, if you don't have a PAR meter.  You can get free lux meter apps.  A real, handheld lux meter can cost under $10.  Highly recommended. 👍