15g Corals wiped out. Need Help

[SaltySlug]

Hello,

 

Somewhat new to saltwater. I need some help with a 10 month old 15g AIO waterbox. I had a large patch of zoas that stopped opening one week and they started to get flaccid looking and would never fully open. It seemed to be just this the 2 strains on that rock as the same zoas in another location looked the same. Everything else was looking fine. I didn't change much up over about 2-3 weeks and they stayed the same while everything else stayed good. I eventually did a 5g water change and it seemed like shortly after that everything started to decline. I'm pretty sure I had a alk swing from 8.7ish to 11. Also, noticed by dosing pump had air in the lines and I was probably getting low/fluctuation doses of alk and calcium.  After checking parameters for a few weeks and still conducting small water changes to get my alk back down I noticed everything was just going white and dieing off. Montipora, birdsnest, chalice, zoas(not all) all started to decline first. Clove polyps and rest of zoas, duncan galaxia, yuma, mushrooms, hammers all went or are currently going. After doing more test I see I have 0 phosphate and 0 nitrate in the tank. I never really tested for them in the past as I never had a huge issues growing coral(or knew better), my only issue was hammers staying the same size.  The past week I've had stable parameters but still seeing the decline in all corals still except for a few zoas. I now do not know what to do, algae is blooming and I'm at a loss. I'm tempted to start over to try my luck at keeping anything that remains alive. Any help or information would be greatly appreciated

 

RS coral pro salt - Dosed Alk and Ca as my Alk stayed at 9 and Ca was at about 400. I was doing 2-3g water changes a week

 

Past week+ has been stable at:

Using RS blue bucket now/ filter floss only / carbon was used for a few days / ai prime hd / started using Red Sea AB+ 3ml

34ppt

8.3 kh

8.7 ph

1400 Mg

420 Ca

phosphates and nitrate still 0

0 ammonia

[seabass]

Obviously lack of nutrients can cause coral problems.  In low nutrient tanks, pest algae will often utilize the available nutrients, leaving corals to suffer.  It can seem counter intuitive to dose phosphate and nitrate when you are having an algae problem, but you don't want your corals to starve.  You might need to battle the algae with manual removal and more herbivores.

 

Alkalinity instability is a problem for stony coral (LPS and SPS).  Stability is often more important than focusing on a particular number.  But that said, high alkalinity and low nutrients can be a problem too.

 

 

My article on parameters and testing might help:  https://www.nano-reef.com/articles/beginners/water-parameters-what-to-test-and-when-r40/

 

[SaltySlug]

19 hours ago, seabass said:

Obviously lack of nutrients can cause coral problems.  In low nutrient tanks, pest algae will often utilize the available nutrients, leaving corals to suffer.  It can seem counter intuitive to dose phosphate and nitrate when you are having an algae problem, but you don't want your corals to starve.  You might need to battle the algae with manual removal and more herbivores.

 

Hello,

 

Thanks for the response. What would you recommend for dosing phosphate and nitrate? 

 

Would you also recommend dosing specifically for those or try it through using something like reef roids? I have reed roids, red sea ab+ and seachems phytoplankton. Should I be utilizing any of those at this stage? If dosed a little reef roids last night but still reading zero. I have stopped using ab+ for the time being and Phytoplankton I have but never used as I've read conflicting information on it when dealing with phosphates.

[Tamberav]

I found dosing reef roids or fish food to raise nutrients to be messy and not ideal. 
 

This is what I used, I found the math equation for dosing on the back to be accurate. 

 

Pic of back for ingredients list. 

 

 

 

There is also a brand called neonitro and neophos by brightwell or such but I have never tried that one. Probably similar. 

[seabass]

3 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

What would you recommend for dosing phosphate and nitrate? 

I agree with Tamberav.  Feed to provide food, not to raise nutrient levels.  Over feeding adds excess organics, which can cause problems.  Dosing is much cleaner way to add nutrients.  I usually recommend Brightwell for nutrient dosing, but other brands are fine too.

[mcarroll]

19 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

The past week I've had stable parameters but still seeing the decline in all corals still except for a few zoas. I now do not know what to do, algae is blooming and I'm at a loss. I'm tempted to start over to try my luck at keeping anything that remains alive. Any help or information would be greatly appreciated

The damage from the combined alkalinity spike / nutrient dip is what you're still seeing results from....it can take time for the effects to set in and then play out.

 

Just to pile on...

 

The best thing you could do in the short term is dose some phosphate to get the level up to 0.05 or more.  This will assure no more damage is done to your corals AND it will aid in repairing damaged cells, etc.

 

After that, just general stability will be your target – but sounds like you know that already.  👍

[SaltySlug]

So I finally got some NeoPhos and NeoNitro. I followed the directions on the bottle and dosed my tank about 5 hours ago. I just tested and both tests still show zero. The bottle says to wait 24 hrs before testing and dosing again. 

 

Would it be safe to dose again tonight since my levels are near zero or should I continue to dose the recommended amount every 24hrs?

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

no, definitely wait. Sudden swings in either direction, up or down, aren't good for corals either and if you're having algae issues sending your no3 and po4 skyrocketing won't help either 

 

 

[seabass]

11 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

should I continue to dose the recommended amount every 24hrs?

With your tank in a state of nutrient deprivation, it might be quickly utilizing the dosed nutrients.  You definitely don't want to overdose (swinging levels too high).  Although I wouldn't think that dosing more than once per day should hurt as long as you are careful not to exceed target levels.  That said, building up dosing amounts gradually isn't a bad idea either.

 

When dosing, I'd target phosphate at 0.03 ppm (not exceeding 0.05 ppm of phosphate and 5 ppm of nitrate).  Sure, higher levels are fine; but I feel the objective when dosing nutrients is to simply make them available for corals.  Arguably, there are times (like when treating for dinos), when your targets might be even higher.

[ubpr]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:55 PM, SaltySlug said:

The bottle says to wait 24 hrs before testing and dosing again. 

This is a much more complex process that any label can contain the procedure for it. Edited: this information is available in the web  search, too much for one message.

 

I dosed one of my pico reefs multiple times a day for months, with adequate feeding. Phosphates at detectable range (0.03 ppm) followed by algae growth, looks like it uses them before corals.

 

High alkalinity, 10+ dKH, in combination with zero nitrates and phosphates could be a problem for some group of corals, and even with low alkalinity, for most of them.

 

Manual dosing with testing sometimes can get better results that malfunctioning dosing pumps. If I remember right, limits of daily alkalinity swing should be within 1.4 dKH and not at once.

 

With high pH, maybe change what you are dosing and when, options and details are again in the web search.

 

What I, personally, would do in this situation: 1) stop automatic dosing, 2) switch to larger, more frequent water changes to restore baseline of water parameters, 3) before this make sure that new saltwater has expected water parameters, sometimes thorough dry mixing of the whole batch is necessary to ensure even ingredients distribution, 4) cleaning, including removing dead matter, detritus in the sand and on rocks, frequently changed activated carbon for dissolved organics,  5) manual dosing after testing to ensure that corals get at least something to live on.

 

I would rather think that the cause was a new water from not mixed well (dry mixing of the whole batch) salt batch.

[seabass]

12 hours ago, ubpr said:

I don't know if referring to other forums is allowed here

We all learn and share information from a variety of sources, so it's certainly allowed.  This is a pretty laid back forum.  But obviously, cheerleading other forums or constantly sending people to them isn't encouraged.  I like how you shared the information here so that it's available everywhere.

[mcarroll]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:55 PM, SaltySlug said:

So I finally got some NeoPhos and NeoNitro. I followed the directions on the bottle and dosed my tank about 5 hours ago. I just tested and both tests still show zero. The bottle says to wait 24 hrs before testing and dosing again. 

 

Would it be safe to dose again tonight since my levels are near zero or should I continue to dose the recommended amount every 24hrs?

Phosphate is not like alkalinity and pH where the level has some effect on general water chemistry or the saturation level of seawater.  

 

So there's no need to worry about anything other than hitting the level you're targeting.

 

Corals DO have a minimum required level of phosphate though.  0.03 ppm.

 

And if you allow the level to fall below that (0.03 ppm), then corals effectively do not have access to dissolved phosphate....which is a necessary ingredient for photosynthesis to happen without damaging the coral in the process.  (Substandard conditions, such as poor flow, can cause corals to lose access to phosphate at higher than minimum levels FYI.)

 

Levels should be COMFORTABLY higher than 0.03 ppm – for the time being you should target 0.10 ppm.

 

You want to test PO4 about an hour after you dose (as you did) and RE-DOSE immediately if you find levels have dropped below your target.  

 

If you DO find that you have to re-dose back up to your target level, then you should re-test again in about an hour.  

\

Repeat as needed until you have a stable target level.  (Almost never takes more than one or two doses.)

 

It is imperative for your corals recovery that phosphate levels do NOT drop back to zero in the future.

[SaltySlug]

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Levels should be COMFORTABLY higher than 0.03 ppm – for the time being you should target 0.10 ppm.

Thanks for the info! Definitely helps me understand a bit more on this. I've managed to keep phosphates at .03 since Saturday night but nitrates I under dosed in the beginning and just now hitting 5ppm. All other parameters have been stable for a couple weeks as there are very few living corals left. I'll try to raise it to .10ppm and see how it goes. Would you recommend staying current with 10% weekly water changes?

I'm coming to the conclusion that I've pretty much wiped everything out aside from some zoas (which are declining), clove polyps(declining), Duncan and a small toadstool. My once 4 inch Yuma is now some little green squiggly things. Some others may come back but it's doubtful. There hasnt been  any visable sign of positive changes. Im feeling I may need to start over.

 

I've set up a small 5 gallon tank to hopefully be a holding tank for any survivor's if it comes to starting over my main tank. I removed some rock from my main tank and lightly cleaned it and have it in the 5g for now. My main tank is getting pretty dirty, I'm assuming from the increased po4. Anyways, I'm open to suggestions and appreciate all the help. Here are some of the corals on their last stand..aka the graveyard. And a shot of what it used to be. 

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

Thanks for the info! Definitely helps me understand a bit more on this. I've managed to keep phosphates at .03 since Saturday night but nitrates I under dosed in the beginning and just now hitting 5ppm. All other parameters have been stable for a couple weeks as there are very few living corals left. I'll try to raise it to .10ppm and see how it goes.

When you hit 0.10, consider that your tank restart.  

 

I'm not sure what you would gain in setting up a smaller tank and doing something more extensive to "reboot" this one.  Simply fix what's wrong and keep going IMO.  👍😉

 

Some corals may still make a recovery, but IMO it will take up to several days or even weeks for you to notice...and then it may only happen slowly. 

 

14 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

Would you recommend staying current with 10% weekly water changes?

Only if you have a reason for doing them.  

 

You'll have to dose nutrients into your water change water up to your target levels (≥0.10 ppm PO4 and ≥5 ppm) so the tank's nutrient levels remain unaffected.   (Going over your numbers is not a problem.)

 

14 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that I've pretty much wiped everything out aside from some zoas (which are declining), clove polyps(declining), Duncan and a small toadstool. My once 4 inch Yuma is now some little green squiggly things. Some others may come back but it's doubtful. There hasnt been  any visable sign of positive changes. Im feeling I may need to start over.

You already know what I think of as starting over (see above). 😉 You're already most of the way there....no need to disturb your rock.

 

0.03 ppm is better than zero.  But it's possible that level has still been too low to effect a recovery....it's not 100% given that each coral has access to something just because it's in the water.

 

How is flow in this tank?  Hard to see in the photos, do you have something for supplemental flow in the tank?

 

14 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

I've set up a small 5 gallon tank to hopefully be a holding tank for any survivor's if it comes to starting over my main tank. I removed some rock from my main tank and lightly cleaned it and have it in the 5g for now.

That's fairly hard on the life you're trying to develop on the rock.

 

14 hours ago, SaltySlug said:

My main tank is getting pretty dirty, I'm assuming from the increased po4. Anyways, I'm open to suggestions and appreciate all the help. Here are some of the corals on their last stand..aka the graveyard. And a shot of what it used to be. 

PO4 doesn't cause dirt....can you post a pic of what you're talking about?

 

BTW, do you have a cleanup crew?  (What's in it?)

[SaltySlug]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

When you hit 0.10, consider that your tank restart.

How long would you recommend I stay at this level?

 

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

How is flow in this tank?

I have a powerhead in the top left corner. I belive I have adequate flow. Prior to this my tank was pretty clean and no areas of build up. Coral seemed to be fine and were placed accordingly 

 

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

BTW, do you have a cleanup crew?  (What's in it?)

Yes, I have 1 smaller trochus, 3 blue leg hermit, 1 or 2 small nerite snail, 1 cerith. Just today I bought 1 larger banded trochus and 2 astrea. There's also a black urchin in there I've had for awhile. Not sure what type.

 

The other thing I'm noticing is more and darker brownish algea or film on my glass. I usually clean my glass every couple of days or once I see even a slight film so I may be picky cause I do it often but it's for sure coming in darker and sooner. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not doing my weekly water changes or the sudden increase of nutrients I was deprived of. 

 

I will keep on pushing through this and take it day by day. I don't want to stir things up too much buy may use my now bare tank to move my hardscape around as I was never too keen on it from the start.

 

Also, would adding 2 small clownfish be wise right now? My parameters are stable but haven't read up much on how they would handle the higher levels of phosphates and nitrates I'm adding. I was just thinking for the future, I'd rather have them come from the fish and feeding than from dosing.

[Tamberav]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:05 AM, seabass said:

We all learn and share information from a variety of sources, so it's certainly allowed.  This is a pretty laid back forum.  But obviously, cheerleading other forums or constantly sending people to them isn't encouraged.  I like how you shared the information here so that it's available everywhere.

off topic but have to say that is one of my fav things about nano-reef is I can link stuff without getting a PM about it. I have been slapped on the wrist more then once on R2R but not sharing information is limiting knowledge and not helpful and I don’t want to just copy paste all the time feeling like I am stealing information. Maybe R2R will get sick of me and toss me a ban hammer someday 🤷‍♀️ 

 

Most people don’t live under a rock and know there is more then one forum already 😑

[seabass]

28 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

Also, would adding 2 small clownfish be wise right now?

I use a self imposed rule not to add any livestock (except additional cleanup crew) when dealing with problems.  It's served me and my wallet fairly well.  It's always easier to deal with problems with less livestock than more.  Plus, the addition wastes and feeding can potentially make things worse.

 

28 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

I'd rather have them come from the fish and feeding than from dosing.

Dosing nutrients is a cleaner source than from either fish or feeding.  No need to shy away from dosing nutrients when necessary.

 

That said, as soon as you get the tank issues worked out, you can add the fish you want.

[mcarroll]

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

How long would you recommend I stay at this level?

Until the tank has totally turned around OR until you don't have to dose in order to keep levels up. 😉  There's nothing wrong with keeping these levels indefinitely since they are healthy levels.  There will be no real reason to lower them.  👍

 

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

I have a powerhead in the top left corner. I belive I have adequate flow. Prior to this my tank was pretty clean and no areas of build up. Coral seemed to be fine and were placed accordingly 

Generally two flow sources are required to eliminate dead zones created by the "flow shadows" of all the objects in the tank.  Not something to panic about....just keep an eye around the bases of your rocks and the substrate under the pump – these are the predictable dead zones.  If they seem to be accumulating too much food and poop, then you need a second pump.  👍

 

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

Yes, I have 1 smaller trochus, 3 blue leg hermit, 1 or 2 small nerite snail, 1 cerith. Just today I bought 1 larger banded trochus and 2 astrea. There's also a black urchin in there I've had for awhile. Not sure what type.

Seems like a decent crew.  👍  Keep in mind they may need your help with algae that has grown long – pull that our by hand.

 

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

The other thing I'm noticing is more and darker brownish algea or film on my glass. I usually clean my glass every couple of days or once I see even a slight film so I may be picky cause I do it often but it's for sure coming in darker and sooner. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not doing my weekly water changes or the sudden increase of nutrients I was deprived of. 

It's definitely a good sign – and an indication that the tank was "being held back".

 

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

Also, would adding 2 small clownfish be wise right now?

No.  (Just to pile on.) 😉 

 

52 minutes ago, SaltySlug said:

My parameters are stable but haven't read up much on how they would handle the higher levels of phosphates and nitrates I'm adding. I was just thinking for the future, I'd rather have them come from the fish and feeding than from dosing.

P is basically non-toxic. 
 

N is essentially non-toxic as nitrite or nitrate.

 

N is only toxic in SOME of its ammonia forms, which are generally at undetectable levels in a reef tank once it is cycled.  

 

Even as ammonia, N-toxicity to fish varies WIDELY with tank conditions (temp, pH and salinity).  Under the right conditions, fish can tolerate A LOT of ammonia.  Ammonia is not automatically "toxic at any level".

 

Problems in a reef tank generally come from a deficit/lack of N and/or P – not really from excess.  

 

That can be hard to wrap your head around given the common knowledge on the topic, but it relates to how a reef gets its stability – bio-diversity.  

 

Lack of nutrients can roughly be translated to low-diversity – especially when a tank is just getting started and demand for nutrients is at its peak.   Keeping nutrient levels low/near zero will eliminate or retard the growth of lots of beneficial critters that can't compete that well for nutrients, but it will encourage many pests (eg green algae, dino's, etc) that are better adapted for such poor conditions.

 

There are some exceptions where high N or P relate to a problem, but those are generally human-generated exceptions that cause N and P to become out of balance.  When this occurs, the problem often relates to over-filtering.  This is not what you should experience if you're going with the tank's natural flow and trying to keep things balanced/not overloaded.