Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals price increase soon

[Tamberav]

Just a heads up if you need to stock up.. this was posted from my LFS and I find them to be a trustworthy place. 

 

[seabass]

Thanks, I just used an Amazon gift certificate for a bucket ($40):

https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Ocean-Reef-Crystals-Aquariums/dp/B000HCLNQG/

 

[debbeach13]

Thanks for the heads up.

I ordered IO salt and RC on amazon yesterday. Supposedly on sale.

If the price goes nuts people might just change salts.

[Reefkid88]

I'm honestly surprised it took this long for them to raise the price honestly. I guess this is the world we have to get used to living in,huh ? 

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, seabass said:

Thanks, I just used an Amazon gift certificate for a bucket ($40):

https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Ocean-Reef-Crystals-Aquariums/dp/B000HCLNQG/

 

$40...including "free shipping"??!!  

 

Back in the day when I tried to order 5 gallon buckets of BRS 2-part, getting it shipped would have cost as much as the product – something like $80 per bucket!  (Around $160 for product + shipping!)

 

These days BRS seems to offer "free shipping" on 5 gallon buckets of material.  But the material cost is now at least twice as much as it was back then – $170 for a bucket of calcium these days, for example.  

 

"Free shipping" indeed.    LOL

 

(I'm not surprised by IO's price increase.)

[ubpr]

Lucky you in US, it's above CAD $110 even now, including CAD $38 shipping for us across the border.

$140+ for anything else in 175-200 gal size.

[Jaren45]

That's a shame.. I've switched to fritz blue box a while ago, unfortunately outside of sales on amazon all the fish stores around me mark up their salt like crazy. Fritz stuff is $55 for 200g around me, IO is usually around $70 for a bucket

[PJPS]

Red Sea blue bucket is barely more expensive than IO here.  And it has levels I like for nano tanks.  I find alk above 8 needlessly fiddly in such a small water volume.  Wobbly pH (7.8-8.3) has caused me 0 issues, alk over 8 and things start to tighten up.

[mcarroll]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:31 PM, PJPS said:

alk above 8

I agree – I don't really see much point in most folks going above 8 dKH.  

 

8 dKH gives a little cushion vs 7 to tank chemistry vs miscellaneous carbonate usage (eg nitrate production, coralline algae growth, etc), but without much boost to coral growth, which is a good thing for most people.

 

But as for alk between 8-12 being the cause of any problems?  I would have to wonder about the particulars of the situation. 👍

 

There are some expectations we can have when we elevate alkalinity...

 

👇

• The effects of high alk (higher CO2/carbon delivery → faster growth) would predict greater demand for primary nutrients (N+P).
• If the demand for N+P isn't met:
  • Corals that were healthy begin just subsisting...
  • Corals that were subsisting begin to starve....
  • Corals that were starving begin to starve rapidly....  Etc.
• The combined effects are ultimately materialized (see pics) in local bleaching and tissue loss....or as we know it: "RTN/STN" et al.  
• If unaddressed, the effects lead to coral mortality.

☝️

 

...that much is predictable and pretty typical but also totally avoidable...not sure whether this matches your case tho. 

 

It's been my experience (and apparently others) that "high alk" is only a problem, or fiddly, or whatever, under certain circumstances.  

 

ULNS-like circumstances, in particular.  (ie "ultra low nutrient system"-like conditions)

 

Conditions like "fiddly" or "tight" are certainly not a foregone conclusions to having a system with high alkalinity.  

 

For example, I hand-dosed an (easy) SPS reef at Reef Crystals level alkalinity ("high") for years with no "tightness" or "fiddly" issues.  But I also had no fish and used only a protein skimmer for added filtration...nothing else.  I made the system simple to keep on purpose since it was my first.  That definitely helped, IMO.

 

2¢

[PJPS]

56 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

I agree – I don't really see much point in most folks going above 8 dKH.  

 

8 dKH gives a little cushion vs 7 to tank chemistry vs miscellaneous carbonate usage (eg nitrate production, coralline algae growth, etc), but without much boost to coral growth, which is a good thing for most people.

 

But as for alk between 8-12 being the cause of any problems?  I would have to wonder about the particulars of the situation. 👍

 

There are some expectations we can have when we elevate alkalinity...

 

👇

• The effects of high alk (higher CO2/carbon delivery → faster growth) would predict greater demand for primary nutrients (N+P).
• If the demand for N+P isn't met:
  • Corals that were healthy begin just subsisting...
  • Corals that were subsisting begin to starve....
  • Corals that were starving begin to starve rapidly....  Etc.
• The combined effects are ultimately materialized (see pics) in local bleaching and tissue loss....or as we know it: "RTN/STN" et al.  
• If unaddressed, the effects lead to coral mortality.

☝️

 

...that much is predictable and pretty typical but also totally avoidable...not sure whether this matches your case tho. 

 

It's been my experience (and apparently others) that "high alk" is only a problem, or fiddly, or whatever, under certain circumstances.  

 

ULNS-like circumstances, in particular.  (ie "ultra low nutrient system"-like conditions)

 

Conditions like "fiddly" or "tight" are certainly not a foregone conclusions to having a system with high alkalinity.  

 

For example, I hand-dosed an (easy) SPS reef at Reef Crystals level alkalinity ("high") for years with no "tightness" or "fiddly" issues.  But I also had no fish and used only a protein skimmer for added filtration...nothing else.  I made the system simple to keep on purpose since it was my first.  That definitely helped, IMO.

 

2¢

❤️ Fantastic discussion 

 

I think much of the accelerated growth at higher alk is the pH stability a higher alk delivers, but I can’t cite good science, only the glaring oversight in an old BRS video.  Happy to be persuaded by evidence 👍🏻

 

My N+P are high by most standards N:P 20:0.2, so I rule that out.  Very astute consideration, this could easily cause a similar tight look.
 

 I’ll point to Dong Zhou (acro garden) for the “tight” description.  Essentially a lack of water between the skeleton and coenosarc.

 

Eventually something gets what I’ll call “a bit peely”🤷🏻‍♂️ not full STN or RTN. Recoverable for the most part if you catch it early, dropping the alk *always* fixes it, so my mind story is strong on this one 😜. I’ve always assumed it’s a water volume issue, since most top SPS keepers (Abe, Adam, Reinaldo, etc) all run 7.5 - 8.5 no issue.  My total water volume is probably 15g.

 

By “fiddly” I just mean I have to monitor everything more closely, and modify dosing multiple times a day, depending on the weather, because if I close the window (often in canadian winter) my pH crashes within hours.  My alk spikes proportionally.  This would happen over a day or more in more water, but in a small AIO it’s a few hours.

 

Eager to hear your thoughts 😊

 

 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

❤️ Fantastic discussion 

 

I think much of the accelerated growth at higher alk is the pH stability a higher alk delivers, but I can’t cite good science, only the glaring oversight in an old BRS video.  Happy to be persuaded by evidence 👍🏻

My suspicion is that reefs close to the surface are not unadapted to pH swings – sometimes it rains freshwater for days or weeks, right?

 

Evidence in the hobby is that pH is at most not very significant....lots of successful reefs run from 7.4-7.8.  Oceanic pH levels are rarely seen, so don't correlate IMO.

 

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

My N+P are high by most standards N:P 20:0.2, so I rule that out.  Very astute consideration, this could easily cause a similar tight look.
 

I don't know about the ratio aspect...I've heard folks chasing the idea around though. 

 

Nitrates being high does cause corals to be a bit more at risk since their dino population usually grows, which intensifies all the issues around photosynthesis and symbiosis.

 

This talks about the N:P ratio in the context of stressed corals....don't get caught up in the presence of heat stress:

Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean

 

More on the balance with symbiosis:

Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”

 

If you dig around that section on my blog, there are a few other articles on the topic.  While my comments on the blog are interesting (to me, at least), all are worth clicking through to read the original article.  There should be links to the original in all cases.  👍

 

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

 

 I’ll point to Dong Zhou (acro garden) for the “tight” description.  Essentially a lack of water between the skeleton and coenosarc.

 

Eventually something gets what I’ll call “a bit peely”🤷🏻‍♂️ not full STN or RTN. Recoverable for the most part if you catch it early, dropping the alk *always* fixes it, so my mind story is strong on this one 😜. I’ve always assumed it’s a water volume issue, since most top SPS keepers (Abe, Adam, Reinaldo, etc) all run 7.5 - 8.5 no issue.  My total water volume is probably 15g.

The smaller total volume does magnify the relative impact of changes to water chemistry.

 

Just to be clear, were the corals you are referring to healthy before and after you close the window?  

 

And in between the "bouts of healthiness" the change induced by the open/closed window seemed to cause these "tight" or "peely" effects?

 

I would say this indicates that causing pH swings on purpose (opening the window, closing the window/raising pH, lowering pH) is a bad idea – avoid doing so if at all possible.  Can you avoid opening the window in this room?

 

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

By “fiddly” I just mean I have to monitor everything more closely, and modify dosing multiple times a day, depending on the weather, because if I close the window (often in canadian winter) my pH crashes within hours.  My alk spikes proportionally.  This would happen over a day or more in more water, but in a small AIO it’s a few hours.

Hm.  Dosing should be calibrated to coral/tank usage, not to pH or pH changes.  

 

And I don't think coral would increase Ca, alk, Mg usage due to pH changes (ie more CO2 available) that quickly.  

 

So there shouldn't be a reason to have your dosing react to the open window or pH changes.  

 

I'm not sure there's a big difference in reaction time between small and large tanks, all else being equal...I suspect mainly due to the excellent water movement common to almost all reef tanks.  Most tanks react "quick" to air changes IMO.

 

On the other hand, whether a tank is covered or not makes a BIG difference.  Other factors can too.

[PJPS]

Forgive the formatting, I'm profoundly disabled and doing this by voice, one quote, I can do fancy mltiples not so mch, but here goes

 

1) pH swings concern me only in that .3ml alk becomes .8ml depending on C02.  Calibrate to consumption, 3.3ml adds .4dkh 8.3pH, 1.7 dkh at 7.8pH.  I'm not trying to chase pH, I'm trying not to spike my alk.  C02 concentration directly effects the alk produced by an alk supplement.

 

2) I aim for that because I don't have a better target, 2 weeks ago it was 5:0.1, 1 week 10:0.35, this week 20:0.12.  My actual ratio is just more nitrate than phosphate.

 

3) I live in a 1500sqf condo with a partner and a cat.  It's -20C outside, I'm a shut in, my SO works from home.  Closing the windows definitely drops pH from 8.2 to 7.8 inside 2h, easy.  You can't move me on this, I run the "experiment" daily.  I drip kalk all day every day, and if we're shutting the window overnight, the excess 2 part added to keep it stable, spikes alk by 1 full point.  Which in the tiny volume of water, shocks almost every SPS.  I can watch it happen in real time, daily.  I run a CO2 scrubber, but it does very little.

 

I'd love to continue this, but it takes me forever to type this all out, sorry.  But I love that you bring evidence to the discussion.  I just find reefing VERY different <20G a whole different beast.  The whole system is on a knife edge when you try to do anything.  I don't know how else to put it.  I guess show me your SPS heavy AIO 20g?  I know my rules work in a tiny system, can you provide any first hand evidence yours do?

 

 

Not being a dick, just wondering how much you've worked in 20g or less AIO tanks.  Flow and chemistry are much harder to get right.  Flow hits walls almost instantly, so you have to find strategies to get any flow to carry.  pH swings happen fast, and change the amount of alk produced by ?ml of buffer.  at 7.8 it'll add .5 dkh, at 8.3 it'll barely move it.  I'd reference how buffer's ability to increase alk is dependent on C02 concentration, but RHF and others have written extensively on it.

 

The corals were looking solid 24h earlier in every case except one.  An echinata just RTNd over night during an early spike now I turn off my doser based on how low the pH gets.  I hit 5.5 for 12h and nothing happens, 12h at 8.5 and they all look stressed.  I guess I'm not actually watching what happens here daily?  I don't know what to say?

[mcarroll]

I will keep my formatting plain for better two-way!  🙂 👍

 

I will also save what could be the most important issue for the end of the post.

 

The issues you mentioned with coral are related to the pH control system that you are using.  They are not related to the tank's natural pH level, even if it's naturally low.  

 

Notice that most folks have "low pH" but do nothing about it.  There is good reason for this.  Actually, most folks don't even measure pH....and there's good reason for this too!

 

Check these out...they all sorta go hand in hand:

The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH

Chemistry And The Aquarium: The Relationship Between Alkalinity And pH

Saltwater Aquarium Chemistry: How To Supplement Calcium And Alkalinity

A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH

 

There's a ton of info there, and a very tiny amount of it isn't up to date anymore (eg. look around at pH levels of successful modern reef tanks...plenty, maybe most, run under pH 7.8.), but once you have all the background info, for now the only thing you want to be concerned with is minimizing the amount of change in pH.  Nothing more.

 

The reason is that there are normal amounts of daily pH change that most home reef tanks go through which are completely acceptable.  You only need to get involved if levels are outside this range AND causing problems.  👍
 

With the kalk dripping (sucks CO2 out of the water) and window opening (lowers CO2 concentration in air) and CO2-eating media (sucks more CO2 out of water), you are pushing pH up REALLY HIGH and inducing pH swings that are unnecessary.  (Your tank needs CO2, after all...not like it's a poison or something.)  

 

If you use a pH control system like you have described, be careful NOT to use it to artificially inflate pH like that – just use it to moderate or eliminate excessive pH swings.  

 

Remember that you aren't there to dial in a "Single Best" or "ideal" pH or anything like that.  There's an acceptable pH range that should be EASY to attain.  

 

pH 8.2 is too high.  When pH gets around this high, abiotic precipitation becomes a new problem to worry about, among other things.

 

If pH 7.8 is the tank's "unassisted normal" then that is a perfectly agreeable pH number.

 

BTW, if your indoor CO2 levels are significant enough to lower your tank's pH to a problematic level, you may need to get your HVAC looked at so that more fresh air is being introduced into the house.

 

BTW #2, there are ways to dose kalk (ie mixed with vinegar) that eliminate the pH issues (spikes) it is famous for causing. If you haven't already, check this out:

KALKWASSER | IN DEPTH  The best guide for kalk dosing, IMO.  👍 

 

 

CO2 levels high enough to cause actual tank problems, if that really is the case, are MUCH WORSE FOR YOU than they are for your reef.  One dude online that I was working with on an issue like this ended up getting that HVAC modification done and he immediately had improvements to his sleep and mental clarity.  But FYI, he's the ONLY case of actual high CO2 concentration I've ever seen.  It happens, but it's not too common.  More likely in very new, well-sealed houses.

[YHSublime]

Can you imagine my sticker shock when I went to go order IO today 😁

 

Didn't catch the price hike, or would have bought a pallet! 

[MrP]

It's still under $40 for a bucket at chewy.com and they always have some sort of promotion going. Right now it's get $20 off $49 and you can also choose to sign up for auto-ship for another 35% off if you wish.

 

And you can also use sites like rakuten.com for 1% cash back + $30 if you're new to Rakuten. I'm a frugal shopper. If you can save a few bucks here and there, why not do so.

 

[patback]

Wow. I was buying 2 buckets of salt from Amazon for 40 something bucks repeatedly. It is now 69.99 for 1 bucket. Geez. 

 

But the 200 gallon box is 60 bucks..   hmmm

[geekreef_05]

I switched from 20 years of IO to Rea Sea Pro simply cause its more available locally...its sweet. Dissolves fast and clear. The calc, alk, ph numbers are the about the same as Reef Crystal too. 

 

I felt bad at first, but now im like team Red Sea Pro