Cycling aquarium - almost there

[lostrider]

Have been cycling my Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon aquarium for three weeks. Using the intank media basket which holds a bunch of marine pure media in a bunch of mesh bags. Filter floss at the top for any sand debris. Have kept temperature between 78-80 while cycling but haven brought it down between 76.5-77.5 in the past few days (what I will be targeting normally). Salinity has been rock solid at 1.025 through the cycle. I used Reef Casa’s bacteria in a bottle + ammonia exactly 3 weeks ago.

 

took 2 weeks for the ammonia to hit zero. Nitrite was a pain and was at the max on my Salifert nitrite test kit for some time. Really came down the past week. It was 1 ppm (mg/L) a few days ago. 0.1 two days ago, 0.025 yesterday, and 0.01 today. It was actually so clear with a TINY bit of pink. Had to have my wife double check the colour with me. MY AMMONIA is zero of course and I believe my nitrates are 25 ppm, but I haven’t checked in a few days. Just have been so glued to the nitrite number.

 

I think it should be done cycling tomorrow. Should it be COMPLETELY clear before I do a WC and add fish? I don’t mind waiting the next few days to get there. I’ve waited 3 weeks so what’s another few days…

[brandon429]

No, your cycle was as safe on day three as it will be on day 50

 

Here's why

 

Nitrite has no bearing in updated cycling science. Nitrate is for algae and color tuning, it isn't required to be measured in cycling because there is no stalled cycle in reefing: cycle charts show ammonia control by day ten for a reason and nitrate by the end of the month for a reason, we don't need testing to cycle a reef we can just count the number of days it's been fed boosters and compare that to a known chart

 

Ammonia is the only param that matters in reef cycling and its handled in a few days, not weeks, when tested digitally. The non digital kits have a marked delay in reporting the drop. 

 

You can't make your tank safer for fish disease prevention by waiting longer, only specific disease preps matter now. You've been cycled vs almost cycled, non digital testing isn't the accurate way, number of days underwater is

 

If we take time to read Dr Reefs bottle bac thread on reef2reef, we see most cycling bottle bac adhering to all surfaces in three days (attachment dates is what he was testing)

 

That's why I said above your tank was pretty much cycled on day three, the bottle bac moves up the normal ten day wait line for ammonia control in all cycles. The tank can carry fish on day 1 after adding bacteria, it's safe and doesn't burn, because even in suspension that bottle bac eats up waste faster than non digital test kits indicate. The fish are a much lighter bioload to carry vs the huge 2ppm blast everyone inputs as raw ammonia. 

 

You can't make your tank safer for fish by waiting longer, only specific disease preps can make them safer

[lostrider]

23 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

No, your cycle was as safe on day three as it will be on day 50

 

Here's why

 

Nitrite has no bearing in updated cycling science. Nitrate is for algae and color tuning, it isn't required to be measured in cycling because there is no stalled cycle in reefing: cycle charts show ammonia control by day ten for a reason and nitrate by the end of the month for a reason, we don't need testing to cycle a reef we can just count the number of days it's been fed boosters and compare that to a known chart

 

Ammonia is the only param that matters in reefing and its handled in a few days, not weeks, when tested digitally. The non digital kits have a marked delay in reporting the drop. 

 

You can't make your tank safer for fish disease prevention by waiting longer, only specific disease preps matter now. You've been cycled vs almost cycled, non digital testing isn't the accurate way, number of days underwater is

 

If we take time to read Dr Reefs bottle bac thread on reef2reef, we see most cycling bottle bac adhering to all surfaces in three days (attachment dates is what he was testing)

 

That's why I said above your tank was pretty much cycled on day three, the bottle bac moves up the normal ten day wait line for ammonia control in all cycles. The tank can carry fish on day 1 after adding bacteria, it's safe and doesn't burn, because even in suspension that bottle bac eats up waste faster than non digital test kits indicate. The fish are a much lighter bioload to carry vs the huge 2ppm blast everyone inputs as raw ammonia. 

 

You can't make your tank safer for fish by waiting longer, only specific disease preps can make them safer

Thank you for the detailed response. 🙂

[seabass]

21 hours ago, brandon429 said:

Ammonia is the only param that matters in reef cycling and its handled in a few days, not weeks, when tested digitally. The non digital kits have a marked delay in reporting the drop.

Whether a test has a digital readout or not has no significant bearing on the accuracy of the test, just the accuracy of interpreting the results.  Non-digital tests cannot extrapolate trends, they only test and report the current value of the parameter in question.

 

I feel that you've been blinded by a shiny new gadget (the Seneye Monitor), as well as by others who are defending it (reminds me a little of Vibrant and its defenders).  It's likely that it's still OK to use.  However, when the results don't match several other brands (even non-reagent monitors), it's not a breakthrough in science so much as it's a test kit whose accuracy might be in question.  You are assuming that you can't verify the results of this digital kit with any other kit, because all of the other kits are wrong (except the one which you believe to be true).

 

21 hours ago, brandon429 said:

we don't need testing to cycle a reef we can just count the number of days it's been fed boosters and compare that to a known chart

As you know, cycle length can vary based on the type of rock, the amount of organic matter on the rock, and the concentration of colonized nitrifying bacteria.  Some assumptions can be made which can be relatively accurate.  And in the case of dry rock, with no organics, and a viable bottle of nitrifying bacteria, we can probably even get by without any testing.   However, testing helps confirm what we might already know.

 

21 hours ago, brandon429 said:

That's why I said above your tank was pretty much cycled on day three, the bottle bac moves up the normal ten day wait line for ammonia control in all cycles. The tank can carry fish on day 1 after adding bacteria, it's safe and doesn't burn, because even in suspension that bottle bac eats up waste faster than non digital test kits indicate. The fish are a much lighter bioload to carry vs the huge 2ppm blast everyone inputs as raw ammonia. 

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is a great start.  It might even colonize on hard surfaces within 3 days.  They used to promote bacteria cultures as being able to instantly cycle your aquarium.  There is some truth to this as the bacteria are effective even when free floating in the water column.  I can only assume that's what the TV show Tanked uses when they rapidly stock their tanks without any established live rock.

 

But I can say without question that while bottled bacteria provides an excellent jump start, that it does not instantly provide a biofilter which is capable of processing 2ppm of NH4 down to 0.25ppm of NH4 within 24 hours.  This isn't even true after 3 days.  And it's easily verified by testing.

 

But is it necessary to have your tank be able to process 2ppm of NH4 within 24 hours?  Probably not, but is does help ensure that your tank is capable of processing the ammonia produced by a number of fish introduced at the same time.

 

21 hours ago, brandon429 said:

The tank can carry fish on day 1 after adding bacteria, it's safe and doesn't burn, because even in suspension that bottle bac eats up waste faster than non digital test kits indicate. The fish are a much lighter bioload to carry vs the huge 2ppm blast everyone inputs as raw ammonia. 

Again, non-digital test kits measure current levels of ammonia (typically reported as NH4, or NH4 + NH3).  If bacteria can process the ammonia this quickly, Ammonia wouldn't register on any test kit (digital or not).

 

 

22 hours ago, lostrider said:

I think it should be done cycling tomorrow. Should it be COMPLETELY clear before I do a WC and add fish? I don’t mind waiting the next few days to get there. I’ve waited 3 weeks so what’s another few days…

While Brandon and I might disagree with the accuracy of the Seneye Monitor, I do agree that after three weeks, and your tank experiencing an ammonia spike and then a decline, that your tank's biological filtration is more than ready for livestock.  However, you might still wish to do a water change depending on the level of nitrate.  I'd probably change enough water to bring your tank's nitrate level down to 10ppm.

 

22 hours ago, lostrider said:

Using the intank media basket which holds a bunch of marine pure media in a bunch of mesh bags.

This media provides additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria to colonize on.  However, with live rock in your tank, you should have more than enough surface area for a working biological filter.  This type of media is more for aquariums without rock structures (think freshwater tank with some aquarium decorations in it).  Over time, it's just one more thing that you have to keep clean.

 

22 hours ago, lostrider said:

Nitrite was a pain and was at the max on my Salifert nitrite test kit for some time.

Nitrite is a lot less toxic in a marine environment than in a freshwater aquarium.  We usually don't care a lot about it; however, it can provide information regarding where your tank is at in establishing its cycle.  After the cycle, we almost never test for nitrite.  However, if you ever have an ammonia spike, you will probably see an elevation in nitrite as well (which is almost always nothing to worry about).

[lostrider]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

Whether a test has a digital readout or not has no significant bearing on the accuracy of the test, just the accuracy of interpreting the results.  Non-digital tests cannot extrapolate trends, they only test and report the current value of the parameter in question.

 

I feel that you've been beguiled by a $200 gadget (the Seneye Monitor), as well as by others who are defending it (reminds me a little of Vibrant and its defenders).  It's likely that it's still OK to use.  However, when the results don't match several other brands (even non-reagent monitors), it's not a breakthrough in science so much as it's a test kit whose accuracy might be in question.  You are assuming that you can't verify the results of this digital kit with any other kit, because all of the other kits are wrong (except the one which you believe to be true).

 

As you know, cycle length can vary based on the type of rock, the amount of organic matter on the rock, and the concentration of colonized nitrifying bacteria.  Some assumptions can be made which can be relatively accurate.  And in the case of dry rock, with no organics, and a viable bottle of nitrifying bacteria, we can probably even get by without any testing.   However, testing helps confirm what we might already know.

 

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is a great start.  It might even colonize on hard surfaces within 3 days.  They used to promote bacteria cultures as being able to instantly cycle your aquarium.  There is some truth to this as the bacteria are effective even when free floating in the water column.  I can only assume that's what the TV show Tanked uses when they rapidly stock their tanks without any established live rock.

 

I can say without question that while bottled bacteria provides an excellent jump start, that it does not instantly provide a biofilter which is capable of processing 2ppm of NH4 down to 0.25ppm of NH4 within 24 hours.  This isn't even true after 3 days.  And it's easily verified by testing.

 

But is it necessary to have your tank be able to process 2ppm of NH4 within 24 hours?  Probably not, but is does help ensure that your tank is capable of processing the ammonia produced by a number of fish introduced at the same time.

 

Again, non-digital test kits measure current levels of ammonia (typically reported as NH4, or NH4 + NH3).  If bacteria can process the ammonia this quickly, it wouldn't register on any test kit (digital or not).

 

 

While Brandon and I might disagree with the accuracy of the Seneye Monitor, I do agree that after three weeks, and your tank experiencing an ammonia spike and decline, that your tank's biological filtration is more than ready for livestock.  However, you might still wish to do a water change depending on the level of nitrate.  I'd probably change enough water to bring your tank's nitrate level down to 10ppm.

 

This media provides additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria to colonize on.  However, with live rock in your tank, you should have more than enough surface area for a working biological filter.  This type of media is more for aquariums without rock structures (think freshwater tank with some aquarium decorations in it).  Over time, it's just one more thing that you have to keep clean.

 

Nitrite is a lot less toxic in a marine environment than in a freshwater aquarium.  We usually don't care a lot about it; however, it can provide information regarding where your tank is at in establishing its cycle.  After the cycle, we almost never test for nitrite.  However, if you ever have an ammonia spike, you will probably see an elevation in nitrite as well (which is almost always nothing to worry about).

Thanks for the reply. I don’t mind that I waited a while to finally get livestock. I bought a bunch of equipment while waiting like the inkbird, and learned a lot about what I do want. I’ll see what I end up deciding to stock tomorrow or Saturday when I go to the fish store.

 

thanks for the response!