No flow - no cycle?

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

The scenario:  

 

Added 4kg TMC eco sand to cube tank, then probably just over 1kg 'live' sand from work invert racks. Live, cycled mature rock was added from my existing nano reef and the invert racks. Additional (non mature/cycled) from a hobbyist who was selling up and had shut his tank down a week ago then stored the rock in a bucket of saltwater since then.

All media was transported in saltwater of SG 1.025, though the water wasn't heated during transport. . Some asterina gibbosa, columbellidae and engina snails hitchiked in on the sand. Tank has been heated to 25C consistently - I had a filter with polishing pads in running to clear some detritus from the new sand from the water column and after 12hr switched to the permanent pump intended for the tank, but forgot to plug it in (I know lol). A water test between 5.30 and 6 gave a reading of 8ppm Ammonia - whereupon I realised the error with the pump and rectified it. Another test half an hour later gave a reading between 2 and 4ppm.

Hitchhikers are acting fine and there have been no casualties that I have seen. 

What's gone wrong, and what is going on? Did the lack of flow over the live material kill the bacteria off? I thought flow was not necessary to maintain it (just beneficial). Was it too many hitchhikers/critters than the bacteria could support?

 

[seabass]

37 minutes ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

I thought flow was not necessary to maintain it (just beneficial).

Oxygen is necessary; and flow promotes gas exchange.  Power outages (no flow) are probably the leading cause of tank crashes.

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

How much bacteria am I likely to have lost?

[seabass]

Who knows.  I'd do a large water change, then wait to see what happens.  I'm sure that everything will ultimately turn out alright.

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

I'm getting different readings on different test kits. Salifert is saying 0.15-0.25 whilst API says 2ppm. 

 

🤦🤦🤦 

 

It's so irritating when it's completely avoidable human error that leads to you screwing your own tank over 😂 

But seeing as I was going to water change the reef tomorrow anyway I'll just make up enough new water to do both then test again. 

[seabass]

24 minutes ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

I'm getting different readings on different test kits. Salifert is saying 0.15-0.25 whilst API says 2ppm.

API tests for total ammonia (NH3 + NH4).  Does your Salifert kit just test for free ammonia (NH3)?

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

9 hours ago, seabass said:

API tests for total ammonia (NH3 + NH4).  Does your Salifert kit just test for free ammonia (NH3)?

No - both tests are for TAN, so NH3 & NH4. 

I actually don't know any brands that just do NH3? 

With a TAN reading, pH and temperature it is possible to calculate unionised ammonia though (sorry I know you probably already knew this, I'm not trying to patronise you, I really appreciate the help and endless patience people on this website seem to have with my ineptitude lol). 

[seabass]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:28 AM, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

I actually don't know any brands that just do NH3? 

IDK, this box implies NH3:  https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/salifert-ammonia-aquarium-test-kit.html

I'm not sure if it's NH3, NH4, or both, but I suspect it reports NH3.

 

Whereas this box implies NH4:  https://amazon.com/All-Seas-Marine-Inc-Ammonia/dp/B002MB3OV2/

      

 

I haven't really looked into if these are actually two different test kits.  However (depending on pH, temperature, and salinity) the results that you stated are fairly consistent with free ammonia vs total ammonia.  https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

 

 

On 8/18/2022 at 1:28 AM, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

I'm not trying to patronize you,

No problem, I often point out tidbits of information for others who are following along too.  But yeah, I'm aware of the difference; still, thanks for the chart.  And like you, I assumed that Salifert tests for total ammonia.

 

I suppose it's possible that the NH3 test kit checks for total ammonia and the color chart just reports free ammonia based on typical saltwater values; whereas the NH4 kit reports total ammonia, or even total ammonia minus the computed NH3.  I'm not really sure.

 

However, I know that Seachem's Ammonia Multitest, and their Ammonia Alert Badge can both do just NH3.

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Hmm, the box of my salifert kit says it's for NH3 only but the colour chart out of the kit says NH3 + NH4. 

 

it's still reading as 0.15ppm. API is now (after a water change) reading as 1ppm. 

 

[seabass]

I know that the API ammonia kit doesn't tend get a lot of love in the hobby.  But I believe that stems from people perpetuating a misunderstanding.  However, I trust it to provide total ammonia readings.

 

It sounds like the nitrifying bacteria is bringing down total ammonia (and therefore, also free ammonia).  When values are dropping like this, water changes can be used to drop ammonia even more.

 

Things seem to be shaping up. 👍

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Tbh, there's definitely been some die off, but there's also obviously some bacteria left - this morning the a couple of the engina snails had left the water but they have now gone back in. Snails are good like this, they're like coal mine canaries in a way for it because you know when they up and leave there's something wrong and it's time to get the test kits out. 

Honestly API test kits lack the sensitivity of very low levels of things, but for getting a general idea /especially during the cycling process they're quite useful because they're so quick and easy to use and the colours are the clearest to distinguish.

[seabass]

20 hours ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

Honestly API test kits lack the sensitivity of very low levels of things

With their ammonia kit anyway, I find the opposite to be true.  It often detects low levels that other kits fail to report.  Ever see people complain about getting 0.25 ppm readings (the lowest positive designation) when they feel there shouldn't be any ammonia?  It's actually reporting real levels of total ammonia.  Now these low levels usually don't have enough NH3 to cause problems, so people sometimes conclude that the kit is wrong.  However, a sample with no actual ammonia, shows up as 0.0 ppm on API's ammonia kit.

 

But I'll agree that API's phosphate kit is a high range test kit, and therefore can't report low levels of phosphate.  And also, that API's alkalinity kit lacks resolution down to the tenth of a dKH.  But their ammonia kit is actually pretty sensitive.

[mcarroll]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:37 PM, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

A water test between 5.30 and 6 gave a reading of 8ppm Ammonia - whereupon I realised the error with the pump and rectified it. Another test half an hour later gave a reading between 2 and 4ppm.

Sampling a stagnant tank (no flow) I supposed you could have sampled a "hot spot" where local die-off of something created a measurable LOCAL concentration of ammonia that seemed to be 8ppm.  I would not be surprised to see fish reacting to levels that high though.  

 

Are you sure this wasn't 0.80 ppm?  Or even 0.08 ppm?  

 

Are all of the tests you're using within their freshness dates?  (This matters!)

Whatever the actual test number, I don't know how else than a "stagnant hot spot" you could start with that concentration, do nothing other than turn on a pump, and then magically have only 1/4 the amount (2 ppm) of ammonia present 30 minutes later.

 

Unless one or both tests were done incorrectly somehow.  

 

How to check that:

If you test the same water sample with each test kit three time – ie 6 tests – do you get three VERY close results from API and from Salifert?  Do the kits ever com close to agreeing across the 6 tests?  I admit I don't know if the test method between API and Salifert is directly comparable, so it may not be appropriate to expect results from the two brands to match.

 

Worth pointing out that <0.50 ppm isn't usually problematic, depending on the circumstance.

 

Here's Seachem's opinion on what the levels mean (you jump when it's in the Toxic area):

[brandon429]

Post pictures of this actual reef display, updated full tank shot

 

folks are going to debate on the #of bacteria you lost as indicated by those kits but there's also a different way of seeing if your cycle stopped, and that's seeing if animals/whole tank stayed alive this many weeks

 

pics show details often left out of descriptions during claimed ammonia events

 

folks place in additives, such as Prime, lots of times without mentioning that in opening description, this can affect test kit readings 

 

pics pls/curious to see update as of today

 

 

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Hi everyone, this tank is cycled now and CUC was added some time ago. There's dove, bumblebee and nassarius snails, and some asterina starfish (although it is intended to be a FOWLR not reef). 

The parameters are 8.1-0-0-0-10 as per both salifert and API. The first fish are being added next weekend.

 

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Technically I could add fish now but I want to give it longer to grow algae/pods and just mature generally. Going to put some shells, coral skeletons and more rubble,and  crabs in at some point next week then fish at the weekend.