2nd fish in 20g with springeri damsel

[RaymondNoodles]

I currently have one fish in my 20g - a Springeri Damsel which I've had for 4 months. I added him and a similarly sized ocellaris clown at the same time - both juveniles, each 1 inch long. They were doing great for 2 weeks but the damsel started showing some aggression when the clown would swim by "his cave". Suddenly the clown stopped eating and didn't live much longer 😞 Wish the little guy would have discovered the BTA, may have provided a good refuge. I would like to add another fish but have been hesitant. I'd love to have a clown or YWG but I'm hesitant to put another fish in with the damsel. Considering putting the damsel in a QT (not set up yet) for a couple weeks and add the clown or YWG to the DT. Then after the new fish is comfortable, try adding the damsel back to DT. If the new fish is significantly larger than the damsel, it should help. It sounds like the maroon and hybrid clown species seem to be more aggressive than standard ocellaris, so perhaps that would be a better match for the damsel?

 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[A.m.P]

If you put a blood orange or maroon it will probably be the last fish in the tank. 20 gallons is a bit tight for them as they get pretty large.

You have a fair bit of rock, but it doesn't look like there are many hides in it so more damselfish are largely out of the question. 

You'll probably want to separate the damselfish before you add in a clown and give it a week or so, ideally rescaping could help out too.

[RaymondNoodles]

Thanks @A.m.P I’m definitely not putting more than 2 fish in this tank, and don’t really want to re-scape. Apparently the blood orange and maroon clowns can get to be 6” so those are out of the question. Maybe a 2” ocellaris or percula. The perculas are considered semi-aggressive and ocellaris are peaceful, so perhaps a percula would be better? What about a YWG since it would occupy the sand bed and leave more space up higher for the damsel?

[M. Tournesol]

😬 damselfish are reputed to be aggressive... Good luck (personally, I wouldn't add any fish).
Don't forget to change the scape before adding a new fish.
This will perturb/erase the damsel territory and thus lower her aggressiveness.

[spazizz]

Was the damsel actually fighting the clown? Like biting and chasing around the tank? Standard Occy clowns are pretty aggressive, if you still want a clown id get the same species just one at least 1" bigger than your damsel. Springer damsels are usually all talk with no bite.

[A.m.P]

4 hours ago, RaymondNoodles said:

Thanks @A.m.P I’m definitely not putting more than 2 fish in this tank, and don’t really want to re-scape. Apparently the blood orange and maroon clowns can get to be 6” so those are out of the question. Maybe a 2” ocellaris or percula. The perculas are considered semi-aggressive and ocellaris are peaceful, so perhaps a percula would be better? What about a YWG since it would occupy the sand bed and leave more space up higher for the damsel?

A maroon clown isn't totally out of the question, a 20 gallon with a single maroon in it is reasonable considering they can be happily bred in 10-20 gallon tanks. You would want to find a full-grown ocellaris or percula going that route and it might require a re-scape and a two-week or so time-out for the damselfish.
 

I don't recommend doing a total re-scape or adding more rock, but at the very least a two-week damselfish timeout and a large enough pomacentrid should be okay, especially if it chooses to go into the nem.

As a side note, I like your scape but it's not a great fit for damselfish which really prefer rock piles with lots of hides, caves, holes, and places to dart into (think cichlids on steroids).

[RaymondNoodles]

8 minutes ago, spazizz said:

Was the damsel actually fighting the clown? Like biting and chasing around the tank? Standard Occy clowns are pretty aggressive, if you still want a clown id get the same species just one at least 1" bigger than your damsel. Springer damsels are usually all talk with no bite.

I never witnessed the damsel chasing the clown around the tank. The worst was during feeding - the damsel would dart at the clown once or twice, and typically only if the clown swam by the damsels hideout. Not sure if it was biting or not. I didn't see any wounds on the clown.

 

7 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

I don't recommend doing a total re-scape or adding more rock, but at the very least a two-week damselfish timeout and a large enough pomacentrid should be okay, especially if it choses to go into the nem.

LFS has clown/anenome tanks - perhaps a clown that's accustomed to anenome might provide a better chance for success (along with 2 week timeout for damsel). Pretty sure the little occy clown had never touched an anenome since it was aqua cultured and so young. 

[spazizz]

I dont think the damsel had any thing to do with the clown dying then. Id just try again with a bigger occy clown, a slightly bigger fish will be hardier.

[BioBoy16]

I'm new to SW but have had FW for years. Imo when u have an Ahole fish it just keeps being an Ahole fish. I had a small harem of apistogramma. The dominant female relentlessly chanced the others around. I lost a handful of fish over and over despite reading SHOULD work until i gave up on the idea. She was just a particular jerk. I'd keep an eye on the fish and definitely quarantine new fish in the tank. If the damsley was causing stress to the clown there's a good chance she will do it again. I didn't catch my dominant female being a jerk until I watched the tank for like an hour or two and saw her in action. She wasn't necessarily damaging the fish all that much but relentlessly chasing them whenever the mood struck her. No good. Could also be the damsel was just out competing it for food. U mentioned it was worse around feeding. Did the clown have a sunk in belly? 

 

Forgot to mention: sometimes aggression is caused by lack of space. Idk too much about saltwater fish yet but a quick Google search says minimum tank size of 30 gallons for the damsel. It's a 2 inch fish. My guess is the additional space is needed for its activity level and its "territory" the 20g simply might not be large enough for it to establish a healthy territory for it. I would proceed with caution realizing u probably have an ahole fish that wants to stake its claim. Hiding spots and breaking lines of sight will help but know that anything u put in may succumb to the same fate. 

[RaymondNoodles]

On 3/14/2022 at 9:46 PM, BioBoy16 said:

I'm new to SW but have had FW for years. Imo when u have an Ahole fish it just keeps being an Ahole fish. I had a small harem of apistogramma. The dominant female relentlessly chanced the others around. I lost a handful of fish over and over despite reading SHOULD work until i gave up on the idea. She was just a particular jerk. I'd keep an eye on the fish and definitely quarantine new fish in the tank. If the damsley was causing stress to the clown there's a good chance she will do it again. I didn't catch my dominant female being a jerk until I watched the tank for like an hour or two and saw her in action. She wasn't necessarily damaging the fish all that much but relentlessly chasing them whenever the mood struck her. No good. Could also be the damsel was just out competing it for food. U mentioned it was worse around feeding. Did the clown have a sunk in belly? 

 

Forgot to mention: sometimes aggression is caused by lack of space. Idk too much about saltwater fish yet but a quick Google search says minimum tank size of 30 gallons for the damsel. It's a 2 inch fish. My guess is the additional space is needed for its activity level and its "territory" the 20g simply might not be large enough for it to establish a healthy territory for it. I would proceed with caution realizing u probably have an ahole fish that wants to stake its claim. Hiding spots and breaking lines of sight will help but know that anything u put in may succumb to the same fate. 

Thanks for sharing and yes the clown did have a sunken in belly. So it was probably being out competed for food despite feeding the damsel on the opposite side of the tank and making sure it was getting plenty of food first. Then I would offer the clown food but the clown eventually stopped showing interest in eating even when the damsel wasn't nearby. I guess the stress of being bullied just wore on the poor little guy. I knew tank size could be a potential issue with the damsel. I read the springeri damsels normally aren't very aggressive, typically not any more than a clownfish. I bought the smallest springeri damsel I could find; about 3/4" at the time. Now it's probably 1-1.25".  Dude loves to eat.

A few days ago I bought a basic 10g tank for $10 at Petco and set it up with a heater, air stone, some PVC elbows and a small pump although I think the pump is too strong even on the lowest setting. It's the stock pump that came with my Waterbox cube 20. Yesterday I decided up an ocellaris clown that's about 2-2.25" that was being hosted by BTA's at the LFS. The owner had the clown for 3 months in a basket with some BTA's within his 3,000 gallon mixed reef. Yesterday I added the clown to my DT to see how the 2 fish would act. I recorded a video showing their behavior. Wondering if I should move the damsel to QT. They seem to be getting along halfway decent. I haven't seen any fights or biting. The damsel kind of has his way of letting the clown know "hey pal, this is my territory" so the clown has mostly stayed away from the damsel on the perimeter of the tank. I offered frozen blend (Rod's reef) last night and flake this morning but the clown hasn't shown interest in eating yet. I also added a porcelain crab which you can see around the 3 min mark. Pretty cool little guy.

 

 

 

[M. Tournesol]

1 hour ago, RaymondNoodles said:

So it was probably being out competed for food despite feeding the damsel on the opposite side of the tank and making sure it was getting plenty of food first.

Could an auto feeder, set to give multiple portions in the day, ensure that this situation doesn't reoccur?
From what I have read about clownfish harem where aggression is high, an auto feeder is a must. This knowledge may transfer to your situation.

[DevilDuck]

There are possibly two species of fish offered in pet stores as C. Springeri: Will the real Springeri damselfish please swim up? | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

I have a small all blue (no black marks) variety and it is very docile around the other fish in the tank.

 

[RaymondNoodles]

2 hours ago, DevilDuck said:

There are possibly two species of fish offered in pet stores as C. Springeri: Will the real Springeri damselfish please swim up? | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

I have a small all blue (no black marks) variety and it is very docile around the other fish in the tank.

 

Thank you for the confirmation. When I was doing my research prior to purchasing the fish I remember there being some uncertainty but I came to the conclusion that the all blue ones tend to be more docile so that’s what I went with. I guess I got the exception. Probably wouldn’t be as much of a problem if my tank we’re bigger. I haven’t had any luck catching him yet. I have the net sitting in the tank to get him comfortable with it. Later tonight I’ll try using food to lure him into the net. 

[spazizz]

Like I said before I dont think the damsel had any thing to do with the first clown dying. I recently added a beaten up clown to my 10g with a springer, the damsel acted the same as yours did in the video. A week later my clown eating, is still fine, healing, the damsel still  acting the same. Most of the small Chrysiptera damsels don't do real damage they are just all posturing, I have not seen any difference in behavior in either color phase of springers.. As long as the clown isnt sick it should be fine.

 

Another option if you feel you need to is to get acclimation box/breeder box to go inside you display. It will let new fish and current fish get use to seeing each other.

[BioBoy16]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:45 PM, RaymondNoodles said:

Thanks for sharing and yes the clown did have a sunken in belly. So it was probably being out competed for food despite feeding the damsel on the opposite side of the tank and making sure it was getting plenty of food first. Then I would offer the clown food but the clown eventually stopped showing interest in eating even when the damsel wasn't nearby. I guess the stress of being bullied just wore on the poor little guy. I knew tank size could be a potential issue with the damsel. I read the springeri damsels normally aren't very aggressive, typically not any more than a clownfish. I bought the smallest springeri damsel I could find; about 3/4" at the time. Now it's probably 1-1.25".  Dude loves to eat.

A few days ago I bought a basic 10g tank for $10 at Petco and set it up with a heater, air stone, some PVC elbows and a small pump although I think the pump is too strong even on the lowest setting. It's the stock pump that came with my Waterbox cube 20. Yesterday I decided up an ocellaris clown that's about 2-2.25" that was being hosted by BTA's at the LFS. The owner had the clown for 3 months in a basket with some BTA's within his 3,000 gallon mixed reef. Yesterday I added the clown to my DT to see how the 2 fish would act. I recorded a video showing their behavior. Wondering if I should move the damsel to QT. They seem to be getting along halfway decent. I haven't seen any fights or biting. The damsel kind of has his way of letting the clown know "hey pal, this is my territory" so the clown has mostly stayed away from the damsel on the perimeter of the tank. I offered frozen blend (Rod's reef) last night and flake this morning but the clown hasn't shown interest in eating yet. I also added a porcelain crab which you can see around the 3 min mark. Pretty cool little guy.

 

 

Wow beautiful tank! Sorry my knowledge is limited on SW fish behavior but just wanted to share some insight on a similar bullying situation I had. I guess just keep an eye on things and have a backup plan if this start to go south. That clown looks big enough to hold his own hopefully. Good luck man and happy reefing!

 

[RaymondNoodles]

Update: Damsel has been aggressive towards to clown. Still unable to catch damsel. I have an acclimation box but haven't attempted catching clown. Clown has become more adventurous, leaving his corner and venturing across the tank but careful to stay near the top, away from damsel. Damsel is aggressively guarding her middle area. Clown takes quick trips across and grazes the top of BTA quite often, checking it out, but hasn't delved in yet. Once I noticed clown briefly touching anemone and immediately darting across the tank as if he were stung by a bee. Hasn't stopped him from trying again and again. Weird, since he was enjoying BTA at LFS. Tonight during feeding I noticed damsel has a chunk of flesh missing out of the top of her head. She is acting normal though. Assuming the wound is from clown but unsure. Porcelain crab is loving life in the BTA. How does the BTA put up with those claws though? It's a mystery.

[A.m.P]

The abrasion is probably from it darting into a cave and missing, keep an eye on it for signs of uronema or bacterial infection.
The behavior is about what I would expect with only one large overhang and no real caves for the springers to retreat to, it's going to guard the center of the tank because it's the only viable habitat for itself.

[RaymondNoodles]

15 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

The abrasion is probably from it darting into a cave and missing

Seems more likely now that I think about it.

16 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

The behavior is about what I would expect with only one large overhang and no real caves for the springers to retreat to

Hard to see but there are actually 2 caves. Damsel sleeps in one of them and hangs out in the other. But I can see where you’re coming from. 

[RaymondNoodles]

Just an update…The wound on damsel is no longer visible. I’m almost in disbelief. If it weren’t for pictures I would be wondering if I was dreaming. Keeping an eye on it for any signs of infection. Clown has been venturing around the tank more and damsel is bothering him less. Clown ate his best meal yet yesterday. He “hoofed” the frozen and has also eats flake if offered. Clown still hasn’t gone in the BTA but often gets close and checks it out. Hopefully one day. Clown sleeps behind the pump return and power head. I was already considering a second tank around 40-50 gal but now I’m really considering it. Been mentioning to the wife and haven’t received any angry looks or “hell no”.

[Jakesaw]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:16 PM, M. Tournesol said:

Don't forget to change the scape before adding a new fish.
 

this works.  Had a heckuva time adding 2nd fish to my 10 gallon.  Well established tank with a medium sized clown who owned every area of the tank.  Couldn't add a fish w/o it getting stressed out and dying+ or jumpng out of tank.

 

Old

 

 

 

 

New

 

 

Liked the visual layout of first Rock Scape better, but for these 2 fish, it just didn't work.  Particularly with Clown living alone for so long. 

 

Removed both fish while setting up new scape so both fish were equally confused.  Took a few days til they worked out territory - and they get along find in the small tank.