Fungia receding

[Xj reefing]

I have 2 fungias in my tank with one of them doing great and the other one is starting to recede and show its skeleton. I feed it every 2-3 days and have it on the sand bed. The tank is 250 litres with 2 primes running over it. What would be causing this receding and how could I. Save it?

[Clown79]

Is it an orange one receding but a different colour fungia not?

 

My orange didn't like strong flow or high light

[Xj reefing]

Yeah the 2 are different colours

[mcarroll]

23 hours ago, Xj reefing said:

What would be causing this receding and how could I.

Poor/unstable water quality comes to mind immediately since none were provided.  Off hand I'd guess maybe a nutrient issue, but we need more info that "there is a problem". 😉. I am sorry there's a problem tho.  🙂 

 

Can you post all of your most recent test results, especially no3 and po4?

 

Also, how are you caring for and cleaning this tank?  How old is it?

 

Anything else of note going on in this tank?

 

There are lots of things that can kill a coral, including mishandling it....so tell us anything that's happened that could be relevant.

[Xj reefing]

I have not done a alkalinity, calcium or magnesium but I do know that my phosphate is 0.10 and my nitrates are 5. The bottom of the fungia is mostly browny white with one section of just white. I found a bristle worm underneath it. Could this be related like it’s trying to burrow into it.

[mcarroll]

Bristleworms are scavengers – it is eating necrotic tissue that would only cause more problems for the plate coral.  

 

If you can fix what's causing it to recede, this is actually healthy as it keeps the flesh from rotting completely, which can be deadly.  (Not unlike Maggot therapy for humans.)

 

Get those other parameters tested and report the. values you find.

 

What about the other things I asked about?

[Xj reefing]

I do weekly 10% water changes and last week I did a bit extra. It is 4 months old. I have not noticed anything Else going on in the tank. Would running some carbon help if there are any impurities in the water?

[mcarroll]

If you run activated carbon, I would use only a small amount.  If you have no reason to suspect a contaminant, then there's no real reason to run it though.  👍

[Xj reefing]

It’s now all the way gone. I am now having some issues with 3 of my hammers not opening fully. One of them seems to have the start of bailout so I will dip it in some seachem reef dip to try and stop a possible infection.

[Tamberav]

21 minutes ago, Xj reefing said:

It’s now all the way gone. I am now having some issues with 3 of my hammers not opening fully. One of them seems to have the start of bailout so I will dip it in some seachem reef dip to try and stop a possible infection.

 

Probably time to test alk. 

 

Do you use RODI?

 

 

 

 

[Xj reefing]

 

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

 

Probably time to test alk. 

 

Do you use RODI?

 

 

 

 

The alk tested at 7.3 mag 1520 and calcium was 420 

I do use Rodi to top up

[mcarroll]

So far I see one number for each stat posted, and alk sounds like it was a first time measurement.  

 

How current were the po4 and no3 numbers you posted and how often do you test them?  Can you re-test po4 and no3 now?

 

The handling and other associated stresses from dipping the coral will likely carry it over the edge (which is assuming it's not already too far gone, which could be the case) unless there really is something to treat that's really actually causing the coral a problem.  (And even in that case, only if the dip you choose is actually effective on whatever that "something" is....there is no universal dip.)

 

Can you give us an idea how the flow is in this tank?   (Maybe a video that shows some flake food being added to the tank?) 

 

Also what is providing the flow and how big is the tank?

 

Can you post a whole-tank pic?  And maybe tell us about the rest of the tank, such as lighting?

 

Last, what is your salinity?  Your alk is very low considering how high your mag is, while calcium is spot-on....something isn't quite right.  (Tho I can't imagine these numbers causing the problems per se.  7.3 dKH isn't that low.  It's just low compared to the other numbers....very low compared to mag.  

 

Knowing salinity may shed some light on these numbers.  

 

If you could test alk, ca and mag on a freshly mixed batch of saltwater that might be informative too,

[Clown79]

What does your saltwater paraneters mix at and have you tested daily to see if there is fluctuations.

 

If Alk starts at 7.3, by the end of 1 week, it may be dropping leading to issues 

 

 

So the first thing is 

 

1. Testing newly mixed saltwater

2. Testing after a waterchange

3. Testing alk every day for a week, to the day of the next waterchange.

 

 

[Xj reefing]

I will post a video of the tank later on in the day. The salinity is 1.026 although it was up around 1.030 a few weeks ago. I will also re test no3 and po4 at that time. The tank is 250 litres (36x21x20 inches).for flow in the tank I have 1 ai Nero 5 pointing from the left to the right side  of the tank. The hammer garden is at the right and gonis and lobos at the left and other corals in the middle. All the corals that aren’t the 3 hammers are looking great. Would it be useful to test the new natural sea water I got yesterday as I usually only do 20 litre water changes and have another bottle of 20 litres ready to use the following week end I did a 40 litre water change instead yesterday.

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, Xj reefing said:

1.030 a few weeks ago.

S.G. this high is quite stressful to a LOT of the tank's biology....especially microscopic life, but even corals seem to drag at salinity that high.  If your tank was pretty new at the time, that could almost be considered an EOL event....almost starting the reef maturity cycle over.

 

3 hours ago, Xj reefing said:

The tank is 250 litres (36x21x20 inches).for flow in the tank I have 1 ai Nero 5 pointing from the left to the right side  of the tank.

In that much water, that sounds like almost no flow – at least on the side of the tank where the pump is.   Very curious to see the video to see for sure.

 

Low flow makes everything harder and worse for a coral.  Harder to breath.  Harder to acquire nutrients.  Harder to eliminate waste.  Et al.   So if phosphates are low, and you complicate that with low flow conditions, it's possible that the coral will not have any access to dissolved phosphate at all.  All thanks to the coral boundary layer.

 

 

[Tamberav]

Could be salinity, some corals don't start to stress or die till weeks after an event. I would say it depends how fast it went up?

[Xj reefing]

The flow is usually during the day ranging from 43% put to 61%. For the purposes of the video I put it up to 61% I have also added a photo of the tank around 3 weeks ago

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVrNBUwlFDn/?utm_medium=copy_link

[mcarroll]

Looks fairly soft, but hard to judge.....I didn't see the pump in the vid.  Can you make another that shows the whole tank for at least a moment or two?

 

It might be helpful (to us) to include at least a few seconds of a closeup with some flake food (or something) circulating in the water for us to focus on.

[Xj reefing]

Here is a video of some flakes in the tank. Sorry they did not last long as the fish ate them https://www.instagram.com/p/CVreQhPpjW0/?utm_medium=copy_link

[mcarroll]

I saw flakes that had a noticeable "hang time"....some for almost a whole second.

 

If you like that pump I would consider adding a second one on the other side of the tank.

 

Your tank definitely needs better flow.  

 

It's also possible that there's a better style of pump for that tank.   If you want to look around I'd consider a pair of Tunze 6045's on the cheaper end....they are not controllable, but priced right and give excellent flow.  Or consider a pair of controllable Tunze 6055's or 6095's which are significantly more expensive, but also way more powerful.  (Similar price category as your Nero.)

 

(Your experience with one pump is not surprising....a single pump is practically never adequate.  I can't think of any examples where it has worked well...for one thing, a single pump naturally creates too many dead zones.)

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Xj reefing said:

Here is a video of some flakes in the tank. Sorry they did not last long as the fish ate them https://www.instagram.com/p/CVreQhPpjW0/?utm_medium=copy_link

Flow seems fine to me. 

None of my lps ever liked high flow, they always did far better with moderate to low flow.

 

The nero 5 does up to 3000 gph. Thats 45x turnover.  

 

Is there any other water movement in there?

 

I'd check for dead zones using string rather than flake food.

 

I'd say the issues are more likely salinity/parameter issues.

 

 

Any chance you see any brown jelly?

[Xj reefing]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

Flow seems fine to me. 

None of my lps ever liked high flow, they always did far better with moderate to low flow.

 

The nero 5 does up to 3000 gph. Thats 45x turnover.  

 

Is there any other water movement in there?

 

I'd check for dead zones using string rather than flake food.

 

I'd say the issues are more likely salinity/parameter issues.

 

 

Any chance you see any brown jelly?

I can’t see any brown jelly. The hammer that started to bail has not bailed anymore today which I find odd as I find with hammers that bail (I have had 2 before) they usually do it pretty quickly. The other 2 hammers that were not open as much are just staying slightly open. I had my flow a lot lower last weekend but turned it up once I noticed the hammers not opening up more. 

[mcarroll]

More thoughts as usual. 😉 

 

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

None of my lps ever liked high flow, they always did far better with moderate to low flow.

Seeing flakes hang out for that long in one spot in the OP's movie is basically indicating a dead or low-flow zone.   String might be an interesting gauge too (will have to try it out), but not required to detect dead/low flow spots as long as you have some flake food.  (And flake food usually has the benefit of being handy right next to the tank.  I have no idea where my string is right now.  😉)

 

The OP's tank doesn't necessarily need "more" flow IMO – as I said it needs "better" flow.  

 

A second pump facing the opposite direction will eliminate 99% of dead zones without necessarily increasing overall flow.   (Personally I'd switch pumps too, but that's going the extra mile to get the best flow possible even into the future when corals grow out...not quite necessary tho.)

 

Your preference for "low flow" (which is not the same as "bad flow" or "dead spots") can be fine if other conditions are good AND nutrient levels are high enough – both of which I imagine to be true in your tanks – to offset the slow coral uptake that would be caused by the low flow.  

 

But low flow can be a real problem for corals while nutrients are also low as that can potentially take available nutrients down to zero at the coral's level, inside their boundary layer.  

 

Relatively higher flow, in contrast, can eliminate nutrient bottlenecks for corals under low-nutrient conditions just by speeding uptake.  (Hypothetically more water flow also brings more potential food particles too.)

 

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

The nero 5 does up to 3000 gph. Thats 45x turnover.  

Hard to use turnover rating for comparison anymore IMO.  (Considering that natural reefs have been estimated to get "flow rates" into the tens of thousand of gallons per hour, it may have never been a very good number for comparisons.)

 

But pragmatically speaking, comparisons between pumps just don't work when 3000GPH from one brand of pump can so easily beat out 6000GPH from another brand in the same tank/same conditions.  2000 GPH was actually about the same as 6000 GPH.  (Tunze vs Vortech in this case.)   

 

To put that in terms of turnover, for 3300 GPH it was about 80x and 6400 GPH it was about 168x.  80x was WAY WAY better.

 

So yes those fan blades in the Nero may (on the top end) touch "3000 gallons of water every hour", but that 3000 gallons carries almost no force leaving the pump.  Most of the force it does carry is lost to turbulence right in front of the pump.  So only a fraction of the water (and force) makes it from a pump like this out into the tank to do good work.

 

Another factor to consider that takes that number down a bit is that most folks with a controllable pump like the Nero don't run it at 100% all the time – part of the time it is completely off or running at a low power.  And it's probably going to be running at <100% even when it's at the maximum part of it's wave cycle.  So it isn't actually delivering 3000 GPH at any point in that case.

 

Nero's "pulse" mode, for example:

 

 

So this Nero could be delivering as l little as 1500 GPH, or less depending on settings.....that would cap "turnover" at something closer to 25x in the OP's tank, or even less.

 

Almost for sure it's delivering significantly less than 3000 GPH in practice tho....plus it's weak flow...plus it's one-sided in the tank so there are dead spots.

 

If I was going to suggest a turnover number for the OP's specific pump it would be something closer to 100x or higher....but don't add a bigger pump, add a second pump.  (Using two smaller pumps might even be possible, depending on what other models they offer.)

[Xj reefing]

I don’t really have the funds at the moment for second higher end pump but I can probably find a smaller one for much cheaper on eBay. Would getting a small cheaper one of eBay be okay to put on the other side to decrease dead spots?

[Murphs_Reef]

Yeah I would most definitely have one on the other side. Even if it's lower rated than you need. It's better than what you have now. 

 

All this talk about flow got me looking at my tank. It seemed so low.. after a bit of fiddling, I took the pumps out and cleaned them.. it's worth remembering to take the pump apart and giving them a good clear down. The flow in my tank is amazing again...  So easy to miss the fact that pumps give out so much less over time due to gunk buildup!