Need Advice From Experienced Reefers

[FWTXReefnerd]

Hello nr community!
 

I wanted to see if someone with more experienced in “reefing” & “fish keeping” could help me solve an issue:

I have a 75 gallon tank, with a 20 gallon sump, and a 5 gallon refugium, set up “duplex style”. Long story short I recently (about 2 weeks ago) had a orchid dottyback go missing & I assume he’s died in one of the rocks. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to locate him so I assume the best thing to do is try to keep the nitrates down. I did a 25 gallon water change 2 weeks ago, and another 20 gallon this weekend. Before I changed the water this week I checked my nitrates and they were around 20ppm. After I changed the water I checked again and they’re exactly the same! Wtf is going on?? Should I do another water change, or wait a few days? Not sure if this matters but before the water change I used my mag float to clean all the algae off the glass.  Thanks in advance for any educated responses.

 

ps. Respectfully, If you don’t have FIRST HAND experience in this matter, please don’t offer advice. The other day I read on a post someone said this & it kinda pissed me off/scared the sh*t out of me:

“I always advise others to use ‘kick ich’ when treating ich, although I never have actually used the product myself so I was going off of what other people have said.” Are you kidding me??? 

 

[Tamberav]

What test kit are you using?

 

 

[empresto]

I'm guessing the lack of measurable change in Nitrate level after your 20g water change is down to the size of the water change compared with the size of your tank and the resolution of your nitrate test kit.  Let's assume that your 100 gallon system actually has about 75 gallons of water in it (rocks, sand, equipment, livestock, and any head space in your sump, all take up the other gallons).  In this case, a 20 gallon water change only reduces your nitrates by about 25%, so 20ppm Nitrate becomes 15ppm.  Assuming your nitrate test kit has an accuracy of +-5ppm you could easily have had something like 24ppm to start and 17ppm to end and your test kit read 20ppm both times.

 

With some of the Nitrate test kits, you can change how you prepare the test sample to get a bit better resolution for the level you're at, but it really isn't necessary.  Knowing that your tank is around 20ppm is helpful, and allows you to make decisions about frequency of water changes.  Watch for trends and act accordingly.  But not seeing much of any change in the level of nitrate after the described water change does not surprise me, and depending on which test kit you're using, the change may even be smaller than the given color changes on your color card.

 

Hope that helps!  Sorry about your dottyback!  Fingers crossed it's just hiding 🙂

[seabass]

Welcome to Nano-Reef.com.

 

I'd also check the nitrate level of a newly mixed batch of saltwater.  When I first started out, I was buying water from a grocery store RO refill station.  And no matter how much water I changed, my nitrate level always came back as 40 ppm.  Then, it occurred to me to test my new water; and sure enough, it also tested at 40 ppm.  I ended up switching to distilled water to solve the problem.

[blasterman]

I will approach this from another direction. 

 

If you didn't do a water change would your nitrate levels keep growing to exponential levels? No. Most established tanks have a median nitrate level they want to hover at provided bioload doesnt change. This is because the bacteria that produce nitrate and the bacteria that eat nitrate get into a balance they want to stay at.

 

If you did a 50% water change and immediately tested the water you would see the nitrate drop. However, the second you change water bacteria are converting nitrite to nitrate and and nitrate reducing biology slacks off until the higher level returns.

[Clown79]

First thing i would do is test the water source.

 

If the water you are using has high nitrates, no matter how many waterchanges at any size, your nitrates won't drop.

 

 

[FWTXReefnerd]

Thank you for all the input!

 

I’m using a Petco “reef master test kit”. Is there another type of kit you’d recommended to get more precise results?

 

Interesting thought on checking the new water for nitrates prior to doing the water change. I didn’t think about that. I buy my water from a local fish store here in FTW & I always just assumed it was good quality water. I will test the water & post an update with my findings. 
 

I use RO water from time to time to mix my own water if I just need a little bit (5 gallons or less). What would I be gaining / sacrificing by switching to distilled water? I’d love to use DI water so I could mix my own saltwater more often; I was under the impression that RO was the better option of the two. I can’t recall the initial thought process for deciding to not use distilled water. 

[seabass]

1 hour ago, FWTXReefnerd said:

What would I be gaining / sacrificing by switching to distilled water?

Distilled water is consistent, pure water.  The downside is hauling it from the store and the cost.

 

1 hour ago, FWTXReefnerd said:

I’d love to use DI water so I could mix my own saltwater more often; I was under the impression that RO was the better option of the two.

DI water is de-ionized (not distilled).

 

There is such a thing as DI water which has not been processed through a RO membrane first.  However, normally we us a reverse osmosis (RO) membrane prior to the DI resin, to prolong the effectiveness of the resin (making RO/DI water).  DI resin can be recharged, but the cartridges we usually use are typically discarded after it becomes exhausted.

 

RO water filters out something like 98% of the impurities, and the DI resin takes out the rest.  RO/DI and distilled water are practically identical (pure water) except for the cost.  Usually you can make RO/DI water at home for a fraction of the price of buying distilled water from the store.

 

[rough eye]

43 minutes ago, FWTXReefnerd said:

I use RO water from time to time to mix my own water if I just need a little bit (5 gallons or less). What would I be gaining / sacrificing by switching to distilled water? I’d love to use DI water so I could mix my own saltwater more often; I was under the impression that RO was the better option of the two. I can’t recall the initial thought process for deciding to not use distilled water. 

for me it's not very practical to make my own RODI water (yet), since i'm only doing about a 1.5 gallon water change a week and spending about $5 a month on RODI water. but sounds like it would be economically beneficial for you.

[Jungle_vip]

100 gallons of water or so not including any filters you may have with a single dead orchid dottyback may or may not be much of an issue. Between the hermits, bristle worms, starfish, and/or any other cuc you have should take care of it. If you had a nano I’d be concerned but you’d also be able to locate the body more easily. If it’s been missing for two weeks I’d be surprised if it was still sitting in there rotting. No way your cuc wouldn’t devour it in that time frame. A larger fish like a tang, fox face, angelfish, etc would be a major issue. As suggested test your source water to be certain. I wouldn’t fret over 20 ppm. It’s not a tank devastating number even if it’s accurate.

[Jungle_vip]

If I remember right that test kit reads 10ppm then up to 20 ppm. You’d have to do a 50 percent water change with water that has no nitrate to get it down to 10 ppm. In other words if you did a 20 percent WC it would only bring it down to 16 ppm which would still read at the 20ppm color  indicator. 

[jservedio]

I had a significantly bigger fish die after wedging himself under my rockwork in a much, much smaller tank than yours and as long as you have a few hermit crabs and a mature tank, it won't be an issue at all. The hermits and any nassarius will take care of the body and a mature tank won't have an issue processing the ammonia.

 

Just don't disturb the rockwork and don't go fishing for it's carcass and kick up a bunch of sand since it'll just make it worse.

[FWTXReefnerd]

6 hours ago, rough eye said:

for me it's not very practical to make my own RODI water (yet), since i'm only doing about a 1.5 gallon water change a week and spending about $5 a month on RODI water. but sounds like it would be economically beneficial for you.

I figured it up & what I spend in a month getting 40 gallons (20 gl water change every 2 weeks) of Red Sea saltwater at a local fish store vs. the 5 stage RODI system I think I’d need for the city water (bad quality) has my ROI @ about 1 year. To me that makes it worth the investment but not an immediate need. I’ll eventually get one but it’s not at the top of my priority list. Thanks for the input!

[FWTXReefnerd]

7 minutes ago, jservedio said:

I had a significantly bigger fish die after wedging himself under my rockwork in a much, much smaller tank than yours and as long as you have a few hermit crabs and a mature tank, it won't be an issue at all. The hermits and any nassarius will take care of the body and a mature tank won't have an issue processing the ammonia.

7 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Just don't disturb the rockwork and don't go fishing for it's carcass and kick up a bunch of sand since it'll just make it worse.

My clean up crew is a skeleton crew compared to yours. I have 9 fish & I’ll probably get 2 or 3 more. All I have is 1 emerald crab, a sand sifting star fish, & a cleaner shrimp (if that counts?). In the future I’m going to get a fire shrimp, and a red star fish for sure. But I was considering more emerald crabs & snails but I don’t know how many I’m going to get. Can you make a recommendation on how many more crabs and/or snails I should get?

 

Yep I started to do that then saw a fog come out of the sand so decided to stop. I ended up just cleaning the few rocks I got out with the peroxide method & changed the water.

[jservedio]

2 hours ago, FWTXReefnerd said:

My clean up crew is a skeleton crew compared to yours. I have 9 fish & I’ll probably get 2 or 3 more. All I have is 1 emerald crab, a sand sifting star fish, & a cleaner shrimp (if that counts?). In the future I’m going to get a fire shrimp, and a red star fish for sure. But I was considering more emerald crabs & snails but I don’t know how many I’m going to get. Can you make a recommendation on how many more crabs and/or snails I should get?

 

Yep I started to do that then saw a fog come out of the sand so decided to stop. I ended up just cleaning the few rocks I got out with the peroxide method & changed the water.

You should definitely go out and grab 4-5 dwarf hermits and a handful of turbos tomorrow to start building a CUC while you figure out what you want.

 

Also stop pulling your rocks to peroxide them. Sure, it'll kill pest algae, but it's indiscriminate in what it kills and will prevent the rock from maturing. Everything else that would have taken the place of the pest algae like coralline, sponges, spirorbid worms, etc. took a big hit. It really should only be used as a last resort or as a small spot treatment. Blasting the rocks with a baster, siphoning and hand removal (or toothbrush) should be your go-to for removing anything stubborn that your CUC won't touch and is moving in the wrong direction without intervention.

 

That sand sifter will also inevitably starve in a 75g, so if you want something that'll clean the sand and survive indefinitely, get a conch.

 

You don't need to go overboard with your CUC, but it is something you critically need and needed like yesterday.

[FWTXReefnerd]

On 5/24/2021 at 12:52 AM, seabass said:

Welcome to Nano-Reef.com.

 

I'd also check the nitrate level of a newly mixed batch of saltwater.  When I first started out, I was buying water from a grocery store RO refill station.  And no matter how much water I changed, my nitrate level always came back as 40 ppm.  Then, it occurred to me to test my new water; and sure enough, it also tested at 40 ppm.  I ended up switching to distilled water to solve the problem.

I tested the new water & it was nitrate free. I think the problem here is a not very accurate test kit. I tested my water before and after I did a 25 gallon water change & it almost looked to be the exact same color when I held the two samples side by side. 

[FWTXReefnerd]

On 5/24/2021 at 9:48 PM, jservedio said:

You should definitely go out and grab 4-5 dwarf hermits and a handful of turbos tomorrow to start building a CUC while you figure out what you want.

 

Also stop pulling your rocks to peroxide them. Sure, it'll kill pest algae, but it's indiscriminate in what it kills and will prevent the rock from maturing. Everything else that would have taken the place of the pest algae like coralline, sponges, spirorbid worms, etc. took a big hit. It really should only be used as a last resort or as a small spot treatment. Blasting the rocks with a baster, siphoning and hand removal (or toothbrush) should be your go-to for removing anything stubborn that your CUC won't touch and is moving in the wrong direction without intervention.

 

That sand sifter will also inevitably starve in a 75g, so if you want something that'll clean the sand and survive indefinitely, get a conch.

 

You don't need to go overboard with your CUC, but it is something you critically need and needed like yesterday.

Well I took your advice & went to the lfs & got another emerald crab (2 total), 2 scarlet hermit crabs, 1 Halloween hermit crab, 2 trochus snails, & 2 top crown snails. As soon as they all made it in the tank my fish community came out of the wood works looking at them like it was lunch time. I was most worried for the 2 smaller snails (trochus) so I immediately put them in my refugium. I watched them for a while and when I thought it was safe I left them for the night. The top crown snails weren’t so lucky, my canary blenny was snacking on them when I checked on them the next morning. But the hermit crabs are good! All the crabs can definitely hold their own. Also the 2 smaller snails are earning their keep cleaning up algae in the refuguim. I really don’t think my sand sifting star is going to starve, he’s fat & happy & continues to grow. Anyways, thanks for the advice on the cuc!

[jservedio]

Should have gotten some big turbo snails - they are big enough that pretty much nothing in a 75g will be able to flip them!