hammer coral - brown jelly!

[Reefer-begginer]

4 hours ago, FollyFish said:

I don't test. Haven't in years. I test for salinity when I do water changes but thats it. That is 1.026. I have an ammonia alert that show yellow and therfore safe, and the temp stays at 79 degrees. My test kits that I have here have long since expired so I would trust any readinga from them anyway.

 

The torch that died I've had for at since Dec of 2019, the hammer and duncan since 2016 as they were transferred from my old 25G tank. Unlike fish, I don't normally dont have a hard time keeping corals. The 50G has been up and running since Jan 2020.

 

The only major change was I sold 2 rocks from the tank neither of which had any of the sick/dead corals on them. I repace the sold rocks with new dead (white) rocks of approx same weight. Since I only sold the rocks so that I wouldn't have to try and get the incrusted zoas off them.

That may be why as well, you gotta test for everything when it comes to corals. Specifically calcium, magnesium, strontium, iodine, etc for the corals, fish wise, ammonia, nitrite, Nitrates, phophates just to be safe. I ways test for everything in my tank which is why I haven't had any issues with BSD for over 8 months in my tanks

[FollyFish]

7 hours ago, Reefer-begginer said:

That may be why as well, you gotta test for everything when it comes to corals. Specifically calcium, magnesium, strontium, iodine, etc for the corals, fish wise, ammonia, nitrite, Nitrates, phophates just to be safe. I ways test for everything in my tank which is why I haven't had any issues with BSD for over 8 months in my tanks

This is the first time I've ever had BJS and ive had a tank with corals since 2016. I haven't done any regular testing since 2016 either. If I had SPS I might be more inclined or if I did any doseing, but I have an LPS tank and I do weekly 10G water changes. I'm not the type of person who believes that testing is always needed and that it is a cure all. It, like everything is a choice and preferance. I know my habits and the corals in my tank well enough that I choose not to rely on a test more then my observations. Not testing is not the reason why I got BJS, and will do nothing to help get rid of it once it was in the tank. Having a hammer and a torch that were expanding towards each other was the reason. Keeping up with the water changes and cleaning, keeping an eye out for coral misbehavior and signs of stress and not trying to save any corals that show signs of BJS, are how Im trying to save the rest. 

[Tired]

Testing can be good if something seems wrong, so you can figure out what's wrong. But I don't think BJS is caused by, say, low calcium. 

If something is chemically wrong in the water, testing can help you figure out what it is. When animals are in distress from an unknown cause, testing is good. But in this case, it's a bit like saying that not testing is the reason someone got an aiptasia in their tank. 

When nothing in a tank looks like it's wrong, and nothing can be reasonably expected to be low (no SPS to drain calcium, no huge clump of macro to suck up all the magnesium), there's not necessarily a strict need for testing. It's certainly good to test and make sure nothing is heading in the wrong direction, especially for newcomers who may not be familiar with how things show distress, but it's not as heavily required in low-demand tanks as it is in others. 

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, FollyFish said:

I don't test.

That's not a problem....until it is.  

 

You have to stay real about it...especially in the face of a problem.

 

13 hours ago, FollyFish said:

The torch that died I've had for at since Dec of 2019,

13 hours ago, FollyFish said:

The 50G has been up and running since Jan 2020

13 hours ago, FollyFish said:

The only major change was I sold 2 rocks from the tank neither of which had any of the sick/dead corals on them. I repace the sold rocks with new dead (white) rocks of approx same weight.

So there were at least two major changes.  The change of tanks.  The change of some live rocks for dead ones.

 

If I go back through your other threads I bet I can find more changes that you're overlooking – they all could matter.

 

If you can, tell us what these corals that didn't make it have lived through over the last few years.

 

1 hour ago, FollyFish said:

If I had SPS I might be more inclined or if I did any doseing, but I have an LPS tank and I do weekly 10G water changes.

I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing here between LPS and SPS.  Both are stony corals with the same (ever increasing) demands for ca, alk and mg as they grow bigger.  

 

"LPS" and "SPS" are purely marketing names based on how the corals look....they have nothing to do with the coral's ecology or biology.

 

Briefly On Testing and Dosing

If you were successful at growing the stony corals you had, then it was (or is) inevitable that they would eventually "outgrow" your water change schedule.  That is something we all go through.  

 

However, without at least semi-regular testing you basically have no clue when that moment arrives.

 

Even I (after 10-12 years) still test once or twice a year....sometimes a lot more than that depending on how much time I have and what's going on with the tank.

 

1 hour ago, FollyFish said:

I'm not the type of person who believes that testing is always needed and that it is a cure all.

You don't "need" to test "always".  It's not a "cure" for anything – it's data.  

 

If you can take my advice:  Don't make more of testing than it is, but don't make too little of it either.  😉

 

1 hour ago, FollyFish said:

Having a hammer and a torch that were expanding towards each other was the reason.

Didn't know you had already solved the mystery. 😲

 

1 hour ago, FollyFish said:

Keeping up with the water changes and cleaning, keeping an eye out for coral misbehavior and signs of stress and not trying to save any corals that show signs of BJS, are how Im trying to save the rest. 

Now that you've said all that it sounds like you were trying to cause this by (not) doing all those things and not testing.

 

And I'm confused at the whole point of the thread now.  

 

Were you just trying to show us how you cure "brown jelly disease"?  Or were you asking for help?

 

In case it was the later, keep reading... 

 

I'm still convinced there's no such thing as "brown jelly disease" that randomly strikes down perfectly healthy Euphillia colonies. 

 

I think in all cases, just as in yours, there are other factors at work provoking the coral, making it susceptible.   "BJD" and any related critters are a side effect and coincidence.

 

If you're really trying to cure anything, identify that source of stress and eliminate it.  It might require testing (or might not), and it will definitely require more info than what's in thread so far (at least if you want help).

 

Trying to treat the symptoms of a problem rather than the root is always a limited proposition, even when treatment of symptoms is called for.

 

I would be aggressively looking at water chemistry...dissolved nutrients...and water flow.  Note any changes from the old tank, or recent changes.....something that would be possible if you had a track record of tests to refer back to.

[Reefer-begginer]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

That's not a problem....until it is.  

 

You have to stay real about it...especially in the face of a problem.

 

So there were at least two major changes.  The change of tanks.  The change of some live rocks for dead ones.

 

If I go back through your other threads I bet I can find more changes that you're overlooking – they all could matter.

 

If you can, tell us what these corals that didn't make it have lived through over the last few years.

 

I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing here between LPS and SPS.  Both are stony corals with the same (ever increasing) demands for ca, alk and mg as they grow bigger.  

 

"LPS" and "SPS" are purely marketing names based on how the corals look....they have nothing to do with the coral's ecology or biology.

 

Briefly On Testing and Dosing

If you were successful at growing the stony corals you had, then it was (or is) inevitable that they would eventually "outgrow" your water change schedule.  That is something we all go through.  

 

However, without at least semi-regular testing you basically have no clue when that moment arrives.

 

Even I (after 10-12 years) still test once or twice a year....sometimes a lot more than that depending on how much time I have and what's going on with the tank.

 

You don't "need" to test "always".  It's not a "cure" for anything – it's data.  

 

If you can take my advice:  Don't make more of testing than it is, but don't make too little of it either.  😉

 

Didn't know you had already solved the mystery. 😲

 

Now that you've said all that it sounds like you were trying to cause this by (not) doing all those things and not testing.

 

And I'm confused at the whole point of the thread now.  

 

Were you just trying to show us how you cure "brown jelly disease"?  Or were you asking for help?

 

In case it was the later, keep reading... 

 

I'm still convinced there's no such thing as "brown jelly disease" that randomly strikes down perfectly healthy Euphillia colonies. 

 

I think in all cases, just as in yours, there are other factors at work provoking the coral, making it susceptible.   "BJD" and any related critters are a side effect and coincidence.

 

If you're really trying to cure anything, identify that source of stress and eliminate it.  It might require testing (or might not), and it will definitely require more info than what's in thread so far (at least if you want help).

 

Trying to treat the symptoms of a problem rather than the root is always a limited proposition, even when treatment of symptoms is called for.

 

I would be aggressively looking at water chemistry...dissolved nutrients...and water flow.  Note any changes from the old tank, or recent changes.....something that would be possible if you had a track record of tests to refer back to.

So based on that. Its not bad that I test weekly on both of my tanks. Atleast for me I log all my test parameters. Even when I had BJD, I knew what the cause of it was and it was a major tank change, like I changed out the layout, and added around 40Ibs of more live rock that had stressed my frogspawm so much that it killed a head of my frogspawn and infected the other 2 heads with BJD.

That and I had a ammonia spike which is probably what killed the 1st head as well.

[FollyFish]

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

So there were at least two major changes.  The change of tanks.  The change of some live rocks for dead ones.

 

Total amount of rock was 4 pounds removed and 4.5 pounds added, out of 50 pounds of rock work. From what I have researched that shouldn't have made a huge impact. Nor did I have to move any of the other rock work in order to takeout or add the new rocks.

 

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Were you just trying to show us how you cure "brown jelly disease"?  Or were you asking for help?

This is not how it happened. If you read the thread from the start you would see that my original question had to do with what appeared to be a bad divide. With the advice from others I then moved the coral to another spot, after the move the coral then showed signs of BJD.

 

Cure BJD? No, I don't have a cure, What I am taking about is the ways that I am taking to mitigate this mistake I made in not getting rid of the sick coral, or moving it to a hospital tank and try to cure it there.

 

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

13 hours ago, FollyFish said:

Keeping up with the water changes and cleaning, keeping an eye out for coral misbehavior and signs of stress and not trying to save any corals that show signs of BJS, are how Im trying to save the rest. 

Now that you've said all that it sounds like you were trying to cause this by (not) doing all those things and not testing.

Do you try to cause your corals or anything to get sick? Should have been more concerned that the tentacles of the green torch were getting to close to the hammer? Yes, but I took my sweet time in doing something about it. My ignorance was that I didn't know what the first stages of BJD looked like. Once I saw the classic signs of "jelly" I changed the title of the threat, posted a pic and commented that I wanted to try and save the coral.

 

I agree I was part of the cause of the torch and the duncans getting sick because I didn't follow the advice of my LFS and get ride of the sick coral, instead I tried to save part of the hammer. Both the torch and the duncans where placed at the highest points of the tank and would have been both upstream and downstream in the system. As I have the water flow setup to be a continuous "racetrack" style of flow, with high flow near the top of the tank with lower flow as you move down towards the sand, I don't want flow to bother the bottom dwellers.

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If I go back through your other threads I bet I can find more changes that you're overlooking – they all could matter.

LOL. If you go back through my threads you will see that I have serious problems with fish and the vast majority of threads are about caring for fish. I find taking care of fish the most challenging part about this hobby.

 

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You don't "need" to test "always".  It's not a "cure" for anything – it's data.  

 

If you can take my advice:  Don't make more of testing than it is, but don't make too little of it either.

I don't test, that dosen't mean I never test. When I set up the new tank in Jan, I was testing several time a week (My LFS got tired of seeing me 😉 ) and I did that for Jan and Feb until I was sure that the tranfer had gone well and that the new tank was settled and doing well. Like what Tired stated I am more then willing to test when I come across something that I can't explain or when I do a massive change. I just don't bother with weekly testing.

 

 

[FollyFish]

Update, last one. I haven't had anymore signs of BJS in the tank since Sept 4th when I lost the duncans. I had added a UV sterilizer to my sump, and sold some of my larger corals. So this weekend my LFS got a major shipment of Australian corals and I went nuts and got 3 hammers, 2 torches and a yuma. So my tanks currently looks like this. My green torch and gold torch have both doubled in size and I think i might have to move one but my LFS said torches touching are ok so long as they are not touching anything else  

[Seadragon]

Brown Jelly Disease, or BJD, looks like a gelatinous mass that is usually made up of bacteria and many protozoan of which ciliates are simply the most abundant and the most visible under a microscope.

 

Based from my own experiences and reading countless posts from other hobbyists on various forums, it appears BJD most commonly occurs after some sort of physical damage to a coral, whether it's the coral falling off the rocks and onto the sandbed (in my case long ago) or a coral stinging the hell out of another to which the latter develops BJD.

 

Having your tank temperature too warm doesn't help at all either because bacteria loves warm temperatures and tend to grow faster in it.

 

Many hobbyists go with the safe approach which is to cut/break off the infected coral/head and toss it immediately hoping none of the others will get infected.

 

One hobbyist took it one step further and purchased many different dips and dipped infected corals with each type of dip to see if any would kill the ciliates under a microscope.  Only one did.  It was called PolypLab Reef Primer Coral Dip.

 

I am curious if the OP took the infected coral and separated it from the others that were healthy, siphoned/blew off any visible BJD into an isolated bucket with saltwater from the tank, then had another bucket with saltwater from the tank mixed with the proper dosage of PolypLab Reef Primer Coral Dip as per the website and following the length of time needed per the instructions as well as keeping that bucket of water agitated, and then see if that solution works and could have saved the coral.  Curious.

 

I have a bottle of PolypLab Reef Primer on standby to test this out if the need should ever arise. 🙂  Anyone else have or use PolypLab Reef Primer?

 

Oh, and I also use a UV Sterilizer since the incident and haven't had any BJD issues since.  I hear the UV Sterilizer kills free-floating viruses, bacteria, algae, and protozoa.