Stocking a 3’x2’x2’ tank?

[Snow_Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, Zionas said:

😞 They’re supposed to be hardy, I guess it’s just the shipping. 

 

I’m based in Guangzhou by the way.

 

 

i assume you’re in KL? How big is the saltwater hobby in Malaysia and SE Asia?

Yeah. Based on what my LFS told me - the way the fish are shipped sometimes is very stressful to the animals. And most of the time they're not packaged correctly. I was at my LFS once when a new shipment of fish arrived in a styrafoam box. One of the packages containing a ribbon eel actually burst inside the box and the poor thing died in transit. 😞

 

I'm actually based in the southern part of peninsular Malaysia - Johor Bahru (JB). 

 

The hobby is pretty big here, from what I can tell. But there's more activity up north, in areas like Penang and KL. We have a few stores here in JB, but two of them are very good - so I stick to those two for my reefing needs. 

 

As for the hobby overall in SE Asia - I'm not in contact with most of the other reefers, but based on my observation, Indonesia, Vietnam and even Thailand appear to be quite big - Indo, especially. Singapore also has many reefers, I think NR has several Singaporeans on the forum too. 

[Zionas]

9 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

Yeah. Based on what my LFS told me - the way the fish are shipped sometimes is very stressful to the animals. And most of the time they're not packaged correctly. I was at my LFS once when a new shipment of fish arrived in a styrafoam box. One of the packages containing a ribbon eel actually burst inside the box and the poor thing died in transit. 😞

 

I'm actually based in the southern part of peninsular Malaysia - Johor Bahru (JB). 

 

The hobby is pretty big here, from what I can tell. But there's more activity up north, in areas like Penang and KL. We have a few stores here in JB, but two of them are very good - so I stick to those two for my reefing needs. 

 

As for the hobby overall in SE Asia - I'm not in contact with most of the other reefers, but based on my observation, Indonesia, Vietnam and even Thailand appear to be quite big - Indo, especially. Singapore also has many reefers, I think NR has several Singaporeans on the forum too. 

Ribbon Eels simply don’t do well in captivity regardless of shipping it seems. 😞 Even if it had gone through acclimation most just starve and die from what I’ve read. If I wanted an eel I’d go for a Snowflake, Grey Face Moray, or even better, a Pencil Moray. 

 

    Wow, I didn’t know the hobby’s so big in Southeast Asia. That’s a very good sign that the hobby is no longer just a “Western” one. 

[Snow_Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Zionas said:

Ribbon Eels simply don’t do well in captivity regardless of shipping it seems. 😞 Even if it had gone through acclimation most just starve and die from what I’ve read. If I wanted an eel I’d go for a Snowflake, Grey Face Moray, or even better, a Pencil Moray. 

 

    Wow, I didn’t know the hobby’s so big in Southeast Asia. That’s a very good sign that the hobby is no longer just a “Western” one. 

My LFS had a blue-turned-black ribbon eel in one of their major DTs. It only ate live and lasted for half a year before accidently being sucked into one of their Jebaos. The store manager has removed all wavemakers in that DT ever since then. They have a very beautiful adult snowflake eel in it, along with a pair of sharks and several big fish. 👍

[Zionas]

8 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

My LFS had a blue-turned-black ribbon eel in one of their major DTs. It only ate live and lasted for half a year before accidently being sucked into one of their Jebaos. The store manager has removed all wavemakers in that DT ever since then. They have a very beautiful adult snowflake eel in it, along with a pair of sharks and several big fish. 👍

Sounds like your LFS are pros. That’s always good. I was considering a Marine Betta but after hearing they might need live foods to initiate a feeding response I gave up. Here we can’t really get live foods and many LFS don’t carry live foods as they’re too expensive in the long run. So we’re dependent on prepared foods.

 

   For me I can order high quality foreign brands like Ocean Nutrition and Hikari through Taobao (basically the Amazon of China). Frozen, flakes and pellets all available as long as importers have them in stock.

 

   I wonder why Starry Blennies are less common than the Lawnmowers? Do they live in deeper waters?

[Snow_Phoenix]

5 minutes ago, Zionas said:

Sounds like your LFS are pros. That’s always good. I was considering a Marine Betta but after hearing they might need live foods to initiate a feeding response I gave up. Here we can’t really get live foods and many LFS don’t carry live foods as they’re too expensive in the long run. So we’re dependent on prepared foods.

 

   For me I can order high quality foreign brands like Ocean Nutrition and Hikari through Taobao (basically the Amazon of China). Frozen, flakes and pellets all available as long as importers have them in stock.

 

   I wonder why Starry Blennies are less common than the Lawnmowers? Do they live in deeper waters?

All my fish are on Ocean Nutrition & Hikari, among others. Those two brands are quite stellar here, and we can get them through online shopping platforms or the store directly. 👍

 

I'm unsure. I think most of the Starrys here come in through either the Sri Lanka or Indo shipments only. They used to come in via Phillippines, but one of my stores stopped ordering fish from that area because they usually use cyanide to catch the fish from the reef. 😕

 

Lawnmowers are the most common blenny in shipments here too - but I think it's because the demand for them is much higher. They're often touted as 'algae-eaters', so sometimes reefers unknowingly buy multiple lawnmowers for their tank when they have a bad algae outbreak. 

[Zionas]

4 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

All my fish are on Ocean Nutrition & Hikari, among others. Those two brands are quite stellar here, and we can get them through online shopping platforms or the store directly. 👍

 

I'm unsure. I think most of the Starrys here come in through either the Sri Lanka or Indo shipments only. They used to come in via Phillippines, but one of my stores stopped ordering fish from that area because they usually use cyanide to catch the fish from the reef. 😕

 

Lawnmowers are the most common blenny in shipments here too - but I think it's because the demand for them is much higher. They're often touted as 'algae-eaters', so sometimes reefers unknowingly buy multiple lawnmowers for their tank when they have a bad algae outbreak. 

That’s good of the LFS. If only all LFS would do that. Sri Lanka and Indo aren’t that far from Malaysia, especially Indo which is right next door. Wonder why Starries can’t be more frequently seen. It’s sad as many have said they’re easier to feed than Lawnmower Blennies. What about the Bicolor? How often do you see them and do they come in big or small?

 

   I hate how cyanide fishing is still so prevalent in some places. It’s really a cancer to our whole hobby, lightly speaking. Indonesia’s not as bad as the Philippines in this regard, I think. I know a Filipino reefer and LFS owner and he gets fish from Indonesia more frequently than from his own country.

[Zionas]

 

 

 

Would 3 fish be too much at the very beginning once my tank’s done cycling? I am thinking:

 

-Shrimp Goby (With Tiger Pistol to follow)

 

-Blenny (whichever one I choose)

 

-Purple Firefish

 

To start my tank. Or would this be too much bioload for a newly set up 90 gal?

 

 

Second option would be Purple Firefish + Pajama Cardinals.

 

 

Will I have trouble adding the Goby together with the Blenny or should the Goby go in first?

 

Inverts:

 

x1 Tiger Pistol Shrimp

 

x1 Blue Tuxedo Urchin

 

x1 Red Tuxedo Urchin

 

x3 Cerith Snails

 

x3 Trochus Snails

 

x3 Nassarius Snails

 

x1 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp

 

x1 Blood Red Cleaner Shrimp

 

 

How does this build look?

 

 

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

Here in the US, I sometimes get a little information on where my fish and invertebrates come from. A lot of them come from Indonesia but I do have a few that are Filipino origin. The distributor (Sun Pet) has connections with somebody over there and I notice the cargo boxes fly out of Singapore and arrive in Atlanta generally.

 

How high up are you in the apartment I'm a little wary of having a big tank so high up. I'm on the third floor midrise apartment I only have a 29 and 20 (long) gallon. (Even though my landlord only allows 15 gallon aquariums). 90 gallons is a lot of weight. However I do remember my uncles in Baotou had freshwater aquariums and they were about three to four feet in length. They too lived in apartments. The older one was on the second floor and the younger one was certainly higher...I think 4th or 5th floor? They lived in high rises.

 

The three fish you chose to add should be decent.

Cleanup crew look fine. It'll grow in size as the aquarium ages.

 

As for bigger fish, when you're considering LPS and softies, angels and foxfaces will do fine as long as they are being fed often. Butterflies I don't think they are reef safe.

[Zionas]

1 hour ago, Diamonds x Pearls said:

Here in the US, I sometimes get a little information on where my fish and invertebrates come from. A lot of them come from Indonesia but I do have a few that are Filipino origin. The distributor (Sun Pet) has connections with somebody over there and I notice the cargo boxes fly out of Singapore and arrive in Atlanta generally.

 

How high up are you in the apartment I'm a little wary of having a big tank so high up. I'm on the third floor midrise apartment I only have a 29 and 20 (long) gallon. (Even though my landlord only allows 15 gallon aquariums). 90 gallons is a lot of weight. However I do remember my uncles in Baotou had freshwater aquariums and they were about three to four feet in length. They too lived in apartments. The older one was on the second floor and the younger one was certainly higher...I think 4th or 5th floor? They lived in high rises.

 

The three fish you chose to add should be decent.

Cleanup crew look fine. It'll grow in size as the aquarium ages.

 

As for bigger fish, when you're considering LPS and softies, angels and foxfaces will do fine as long as they are being fed often. Butterflies I don't think they are reef safe.

Thanks for replying. I’m on the second floor of a low rise apartment. Total of 7 stories I think. 

 

You have uncles from Baotou- as in Inner Mongolia?

 

BTW I’ve added 2 more fish, a Yellow Wrasse (H. chrysurus) and a third PJ Cardinal. Would that be too much?

 

Not sure if this helps but I’ve decided to expand the footprint by doing a 48” x 24” x 18”, I’ll still have the space. Not sure if that’s going to be better in terms of weight distribution.

[Zionas]

 

 

 

 

A final revision:

 

Tank- 48” x 24” x 18” (85.59 US gallons) 1.2m x 0.6m x 0.45m

 

Protein Skimmer- Bubble King Eco Max 250 (most expensive piece of equipment by far, good for tanks up to 300 gallons)

 

UV Sterilizer- Songbao (Chinese brand) 100W

 

 

Fish-

 

x3 PJ Cardinals (S. Nematoptera) 3” each

 

x1 Fireball Angel (C. Acanthops) 3”

 

x2 Captive-Bred Ocellaris Clownfish (A. Ocellaris) 4.3” each

 

x1 Royal Gramma (G. Loreto) 3”

 

x1 Azure Damsel (C. Hemicyanea) 2.5”

 

x1 Purple Firefish (N. Decora) 3.5”

 

x1 Yellow Coris Wrasse (H. Chrysurus) 5”

 

x1 Starry Blenny (S. Ramosus) - 6” / Bicolor Blenny (E. Bicolor)- 4.3” (Choice A: Starry Choice B: Bicolor)

 

x1 Orange Spotted Prawn Goby (A. Guttata)- 4.3” / Yellow Watchman Goby (C. Cinctus)- 4” (Choice A: Orange Spotted Choice B: Yellow Watchman)

 

 

Inverts:

 

x6 Trochus Snails (1” each)

 

x6 Nassarius Snails (1.5” each)

 

x6 Cerith Snails (1.5” each)

 

x2 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp (2” each)

 

x2 Blood Red Cleaner Shrimp (2” each)

 

x1 Red Tuxedo Urchin (3”)

 

x1 Blue Tuxedo Urchin (3”)

 

x1 Tiger Pistol Shrimp (for the goby) (3”)

 

 

Corals: Softies and LPS Mixed reef

 

How does this look? Is it a bit too much?

 

 

 

Apartment is 4.8m x 4.8m = 23 square meters or 246 square feet

 

 

85.59 x 8.55= 732 pounds with 8.55 being the weight of seawater per gallon

 

Add ~110 pounds of live rock = 842 pounds

 

Assuming 40 gallon sump= 342 pounds

 

Add another 100 pounds for equipment = 1,274 pounds or 582.413 kilograms (Equivalent of 5 NFL players standing in that section of the wall)

 

Are these the right calculations?

 

Assuming 40 pounds / square foot

 

246 x 40= maximum of 9,920 load bearing capacity

 

 

[Tired]

Only one of the clownfish will get that size, the male will stay smaller. Just FYI. 

Width of the fish (as in, how much mass they have per inch of length) matters a lot, as does diet. Carnivores tend to put out more potent waste than herbivores, but herbivores put out more waste by volume. Most fish you'll get for a reef are omnivores, so that point at least is moot. 

Length of inverts is almost totally meaningless. Your tuxedo urchins have a completely different bioload than your tiger pistol, because the urchins are much wider. Besides that, an animal that eats nothing but algae, and an animal that scavenges food for much of its diet, are going to have very different bioloads even if they were the same mass.

 

In short, pure inches of length aren't really helpful. Better to think of fish in terms of rough categories (small, medium, very small, tiny), and look at roughly how many fish of those sizes other people have. You want to have 10 small fish, and 2 bordering on medium-sized. Sounds entirely reasonable for a 90-gallon tank.

The firefish and cardinals should still be your first additions, and the clowns and damsel should go last. One fish at a time, except when you're adding multiples of the same species. Wait a few weeks between additions. If it's even remotely possible, QUARANTINE. Otherwise you're likely to get a disease on at least 1 of your 12 fish, which will require you to catch and medicate everything in the tank, and quite possibly kill things.

 

I would not get a pair of cleaner shrimp, either species, unless you can guarantee it's a mated pair. They'll probably fight otherwise. Your invert lists looks good other than that, but you might need more snails. 18 snails is not a lot in a tank that size, even with the urchins helping out. 

Wait awhile before adding the urchins, they need lots of algae to eat. 

[Zionas]

Thanks. I’ll have one of each kind of Cleaner Shrimp. At what point can I add shrimp and snails to my tank though? Do they need a very mature tank?

 

    I want to add the Pistol Shrimp for my goby about a week after my tank’s set up and running with the first 3 fish. Will that be too soon?

 

   Also what acclimation procedures should I follow for inverts?

[Tired]

Snails can go in as soon as the tank is cycled, shrimp could go in then but you should probably wait longer. Give it an extra week or so. Assuming you stock the tank lightly (just a few fish at first), you shouldn't have to worry about a parameter spike in a nice big tank. 

 

For acclimation, it depends on how you got them.

If they were shipped to you, you may want to just temperature acclimate (float the bag), then dump them in. Ammonia builds up in the bag during shipping, in a less toxic form, then becomes toxic as soon as you open the bag. So you want to get things out of the bag as soon as you open it. There is some discussion about this, you can do your own research. 

If you got them from a local store, and they've been in the bag a few hours or less, drip acclimation is pretty much ideal. Put them in a container with just enough bag water to cover them, then set up a tiny siphon of airline tubing, with a knot in it, so it drips into the container. Let the volume of water multiply several times what it was before, then scoop the inverts out and put them in the tank. 

Whatever method you use, try not to get bag water into your aquarium. It's gross from shipping and/or might have pathogens in it. 

[Cannedfish]

You were previous planning to put a 180 gallon 6 foot tank in a 246 sf foot apartment?! Dang.

[Zionas]

32 minutes ago, Cannedfish said:

You were previous planning to put a 180 gallon 6 foot tank in a 246 sf foot apartment?! Dang.

Yeah lol. It was only recently that I finally had some common sense and decided against it after all. It’s as if I was high lol. I wanted to keep several big fish, lots of angels and tangs and butterflies, but recently I’ve had a change of heart and started appreciating small to medium tanks a lot more.

[TerraIncognita]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:08 PM, Zionas said:

As far as I know, the landlord doesn’t have any restrictions on fish tanks. The building is fairly new, the complex was completed in 2016, not sure if that helps. I’m on the second floor btw.

It sounds crazy but I have a similar restriction man. Read your lease, it’ll be in there, sometimes they just ask for anything over a certain gallon amount to be cleared first. If it’s a new building it’ll probably be okay, but where I am isn’t.

 

last thing you want of a fish tank through the floor and your neighbors ceiling.

 

Only thing so far in L.A. stopping me from getting anything but a Nano so far

[Zionas]

11 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

It sounds crazy but I have a similar restriction man. Read your lease, it’ll be in there, sometimes they just ask for anything over a certain gallon amount to be cleared first. If it’s a new building it’ll probably be okay, but where I am isn’t.

 

last thing you want of a fish tank through the floor and your neighbors ceiling.

 

Only thing so far in L.A. stopping me from getting anything but a Nano so far

Nothing in the lease covers fish tanks where I am. It’s a new building completed in 2016 or 2017. 

 

   Sorry to hear about that man, must suck with all the restrictions. My apartment is low rise, only 7 floors total.

[TerraIncognita]

44 minutes ago, Zionas said:

Nothing in the lease covers fish tanks where I am. It’s a new building completed in 2016 or 2017. 

 

   Sorry to hear about that man, must suck with all the restrictions. My apartment is low rise, only 7 floors total.

If it’s not in the lease then don’t ask don’t tell brother.

 

if it falls through it’s 100% on them and they’ll have to pay for everything 😂😂

 

just double check but otherwise you’re Gucci.

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

16 hours ago, Zionas said:

Thanks for replying. I’m on the second floor of a low rise apartment. Total of 7 stories I think. 

 

You have uncles from Baotou- as in Inner Mongolia?

 

BTW I’ve added 2 more fish, a Yellow Wrasse (H. chrysurus) and a third PJ Cardinal. Would that be too much?

 

Not sure if this helps but I’ve decided to expand the footprint by doing a 48” x 24” x 18”, I’ll still have the space. Not sure if that’s going to be better in terms of weight distribution.

That's right. I still have family on the maternal side in 内蒙古, Inner Mongolia. Mom was born in Hohhot but she got married to my American dad and then immigrated immediately after. My paternal side of the family is Taishanese. (Newlywed) Wife's side of the family is Hong Kong origin. That's a story for another time.

 

I think you're headed in the right direction. I'm not certain on the quality of the newer Chinese apartments. I've only lived out of the ones built in the 1990s whenever I was traveling to see family.

 

 

[Zionas]

8 hours ago, Diamonds x Pearls said:

That's right. I still have family on the maternal side in 内蒙古, Inner Mongolia. Mom was born in Hohhot but she got married to my American dad and then immigrated immediately after. My paternal side of the family is Taishanese. (Newlywed) Wife's side of the family is Hong Kong origin. That's a story for another time.

 

I think you're headed in the right direction. I'm not certain on the quality of the newer Chinese apartments. I've only lived out of the ones built in the 1990s whenever I was traveling to see family.

 

 

That’s very interesting to know. I think the newer Chinese apartment buildings, at least in the big cities where I think standards are more strict, should be built pretty well. Both of my parents are from Chongqing (重庆).

[Zionas]

Perching fish:

 

x1 Starry / Bicolor Blenny

 

x1 shrimp goby

 

 

”Hovering” fish:

 

x3 PJ Cardinals

 

 

Weak to Moderate Swimmers:

 

x2 Ocellaris Clownfish

 

x1 Royal Gramma

 

x1 Purple Firefish

 

 

Strong Swimmers:

 

x1 Yellow Coris Wrasse

 

x1 Fireball Angelfish

 

x1 Azure Damselfish

 

 

Small Fish (4” and below): 9-10

 

Medium Fish (5-6”): 1-2

[Zionas]

Coral Wish List: How does this look? Any issues? Any difficult to keep species? I’m worried about the Montis and the Pavona as they’re SPS. Do I have to dose Calc and Alk once I get into stony corals?

 

Will I have enough corals? Thanks.

 

 

Coral Wish List:

 

Soft Corals-

 

Mushrooms (7)

x1 Florida Ricordea (R. Florida)

x1 Orange Actinodiscus (Actinodiscus sp.)

x1 Green Striped Actinodiscus (Actinodiscus sp.)

x1 Green Actinodiscus (Actinodiscus sp.)

x1 Elephant Ear Rhodactis (R. Mussoides)

x1 Bull’s Eye Rhodactis (R. Inchoata)

 

 

Zoanthids (6)

x1 Multi-Colored Zoas (Variant 1) (Zoanthus sp.)

x1 Multi-Colored Zoas (Variant 2) (Zoanthus sp.)

x1 Green Zoas (Zoanthus sp.)

x1 Purple Zoas (Zoanthus sp.)

x1 Yellow Zoas (Zoanthus sp.)

x1 Pink Zoas (Zoanthus sp.)

 

 

Leathers (4)

x1 Toadstool Leather (S. Tenispiculatum)

x1 Fiji Yellow Leather (S. Elegans)

x1 Flexible Finger Leather (S. Flexibilis)

x1 Devil’s Hand Leather (Lobophytum sp.)

 

 

Star Polyps (1)

x1 Green Star Polyps (Branching) (Briareum sp.)

 

 

Photosynthetic Gorgonians (2)

x1 Purple Tree Gorgonian (Eunicea sp.)

x1 Muricea Gorgonian (Muricea sp.)

 

 

 

 

LPS Corals:

 

Batch 1 (4)

x1 Frogspawn (Branching) (E. paradivisa)

x1 Candy Cane (C. furcata)

x1 Pink Duncan (D. axifuga)

x1 Bubble Coral (P. sinuosa)

 

 

Batch 2 (4)

x1 Pentagon Moon Brain (F. pentagona)

x1 Green Crystal Brain (C. lacrymalis)

x1 Honey Comb Brain (G. retiformis)

x1 Pineapple Brain (B. wellsi)

 

 

 

Batch 3 (4)

x1 Lord Howe’s Donut (A. lordhowensis)

x1 Lobed Brain (L. hempriichi)

x1 Australian Donut (S. australis)

x1 Cat’s Eye Brain (Fuji Brain in China) (A. deshayesiana)

 

 

 

Batch 4 (4)

x1 Green Scroll Coral (T. peltata)

x1 Tongue Coral (H. limax)

x2 assorted Disk Corals (F. fungites)

 

 

 

Batch 5 (4)

x1 Branching Hammer (E. parancora)

x1 Fox Coral (E. lamellosa)

x1 Open Brain Coral (S. radians)

x1 Folded Brain Coral (T. geoffroyi)

 

 

 

 

SPS (Maybe) (3):

x1 Cactus Coral (P. decussatus)

x1 Finger Coral (M. digitata)

x1 Leaf Plate Coral (M. capricornis)

 

 

For a total of 38-41 frags.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tired]

Skip the elephant ear mushrooms, they eat small fish. Make sure to isolate the star polyps so they can't grow wild. Photosynthetic gorgonians still need a lot of feeding, so you may want to either skip those or wait until the tank is very established and can partially feed them itself.

 

You generally don't have to dose calcium and alk unless you have a lot of corals with skeletons. If you just have a couple, the stuff they use up gets replaced by water changes just fine. Keep in mind that any corals other than soft corals will use up calcium to some extent- LPS have skeletons too.

 

You should start your corals out with soft corals and a couple of hardy LPS, and see how it looks. Bear in mind that everything will grow, and, if given time, most of them could take up a ton of space if you wanted them to. It's good to know what corals you like, but it's better to start with some hardy ones and see how they look, get a feel for what corals you like the look of, than to immediately decide everything you want. 

[Zionas]

1 hour ago, Tired said:

Skip the elephant ear mushrooms, they eat small fish. Make sure to isolate the star polyps so they can't grow wild. Photosynthetic gorgonians still need a lot of feeding, so you may want to either skip those or wait until the tank is very established and can partially feed them itself.

 

You generally don't have to dose calcium and alk unless you have a lot of corals with skeletons. If you just have a couple, the stuff they use up gets replaced by water changes just fine. Keep in mind that any corals other than soft corals will use up calcium to some extent- LPS have skeletons too.

 

You should start your corals out with soft corals and a couple of hardy LPS, and see how it looks. Bear in mind that everything will grow, and, if given time, most of them could take up a ton of space if you wanted them to. It's good to know what corals you like, but it's better to start with some hardy ones and see how they look, get a feel for what corals you like the look of, than to immediately decide everything you want. 

Thanks. That’s all very helpful. Do you mean that once I start getting into LPS corals I’ll have to start dosing Calcium and Alkalinity?

[Tired]

Only if you have so many of them that they use up a lot of calcium and alk as they grow. Water changes replace calcium and alk, so if your corals don't use up very much, you won't have to dose because the water changes will keep things even. That's part of what water changes are for- they replace nutrients that your corals need.