EMERGENCY!!!! ICH OR VELVET?

[Dawson_hatton]

Hello all, i’m new here, and I got a bit of an emergency. I noticed these spots on my damsel which look like ich and/or velvet, or a mix. I literally can’t tell. Last time he had it it went away in a few days only to come back a day or two later. the only other fish in the tank to have it is my blue green damsel. both are eating well, being territorial. no hard breathing or anything. I know how I can manage ich but literally have no resources for Velvet. I’d prefer not to lose $50 of fish and stuff. I noticed the spots maybe about 2-4 weeks ago, not really getting worse or better. please note the white on the side fin of the black damsel is just the light reflection.

[Clown79]

 

Here are 2 really informative  threads that can help out.

 

Ich will return if fish aren't treated and the tank goes fallow.

 

If its velvet(hard to tell by pics) it's a rapid parasite, treatment needs starting asap as it's often deadly. 

 

 

[Dawson_hatton]

well if it was velvet don’t you think it would kill faster? it’s been on these fish for like 4 weeks about. some of the dots look bigger than velvet too, but not all. I don’t have any resources to treat velvet but I do for ich management at least. None of my fish have shown any symptoms except occasionally scratching. my chromis and one of my damsels swims against the current but they’ve always done that as long as I can remember. 

[Tamberav]

If the dots can be counted then it's probably ich. Velvet is often more numerous.

 

If you don't plan to treat for velvet anyways then just do ich management and hope it works. The chromis tail looks nipped up which tells me that there are some stressors going on in this tank.

 

With an effective disease management tank you should not see spots at all or they should not be returning so frequently.

 

 

 

 

[Humblefish]

I can't tell for sure from the photos. Damsels are extremely hardy so it's impossible velvet symptoms on them won't be as bad as many other fish. There are some photos of fish with velvet here for comparison: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/404078-marine-velvet-fish-disease-information/

[Dawson_hatton]

thanks guys, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s definitely ich. On one of my Blennies it showed up as almost an egg shaped spot that was definitely larger than velvet. I was mainly worried about the cloudy damsel which looked a bit more like velvet but i’m thinking that was due to mucus buildup. I did a freshwater dip on the two damsels and the blue green didn’t make it but the cloudy was fine, and all the white spots fell off into the water. I heard fw dips don’t kill off the white spots on the fish regardless of ich or velvet but this seemed to work. Fish are all acting normal still. my chromis still hasn’t shown any sign, no flashing or anything.

[luckie1966]

24 minutes ago, Dawson_hatton said:

thanks guys, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s definitely ich. On one of my Blennies it showed up as almost an egg shaped spot that was definitely larger than velvet. I was mainly worried about the cloudy damsel which looked a bit more like velvet but i’m thinking that was due to mucus buildup. I did a freshwater dip on the two damsels and the blue green didn’t make it but the cloudy was fine, and all the white spots fell off into the water. I heard fw dips don’t kill off the white spots on the fish regardless of ich or velvet but this seemed to work. Fish are all acting normal still. my chromis still hasn’t shown any sign, no flashing or anything.

You Got a couple days to get under control. You need to net them , quarantine and treat fast. Tank a long slow fallow unless you have no Inverts, rock, sand and critters. Velvet generally looks like a dust.

[Dawson_hatton]

if it’s ich i’m just using ich management. I actually am dropping off the cloudy damsel off to the LFS (they’ll qt) because he’s an aggressive little shite and I’d rather keep my clown from being pestered. I was looking at comparisons and it definitely seems like ich timeline wise and look wise. I was able to count the dots and there was maybe 20 at a time max. plus, if it was velvet, with how contagious it is, I’d assume all my other fish would be wiped out by now, such as my wild caught Triple fin blenny which is quite sensitive. 

[Tamberav]

2 hours ago, Dawson_hatton said:

if it’s ich i’m just using ich management. I actually am dropping off the cloudy damsel off to the LFS (they’ll qt) because he’s an aggressive little shite and I’d rather keep my clown from being pestered. I was looking at comparisons and it definitely seems like ich timeline wise and look wise. I was able to count the dots and there was maybe 20 at a time max. plus, if it was velvet, with how contagious it is, I’d assume all my other fish would be wiped out by now, such as my wild caught Triple fin blenny which is quite sensitive. 

 

For ich management, I would invest in a large UV and feed QUALITY food like live worms, clams, LRS, and so on. UV's are expensive but if the tank is a nano, you can probably fine a nice one used if you look around for awhile. Don't buy a small cheap unit. You need something that will help keep the parasite load low. I have seen used ones in my area for just a fraction of what they are new. 

[Dawson_hatton]

I’ll try to find one when I can afford one. I live in Hawaii so getting anything here is ridiculous. I honestly have no clue what it was (probably just ich) but i’ve been feeding all my fish garlic soaked food. none of the other fish are showing any symptoms at all, and my blenny’s spots went away. I’m going to do a water change today and keep the environment stress free as possible. Thanks for the reply!

[Tamberav]

1 hour ago, Dawson_hatton said:

I’ll try to find one when I can afford one. I live in Hawaii so getting anything here is ridiculous. I honestly have no clue what it was (probably just ich) but i’ve been feeding all my fish garlic soaked food. none of the other fish are showing any symptoms at all, and my blenny’s spots went away. I’m going to do a water change today and keep the environment stress free as possible. Thanks for the reply!

The spots dropping is part of the life cycle, they drop off and reproduce and come back later. Garlic is just a myth imo... good to get picky fish to eat but some studies show it is actually bad for a fish to eat it long term. I use it to get new fish eating but that is about it. You would be better off soaking the food in selcon or fish oil... something nutritious/vitamin loaded.

[Humblefish]

8 hours ago, Dawson_hatton said:

thanks guys, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s definitely ich. On one of my Blennies it showed up as almost an egg shaped spot that was definitely larger than velvet. I was mainly worried about the cloudy damsel which looked a bit more like velvet but i’m thinking that was due to mucus buildup. I did a freshwater dip on the two damsels and the blue green didn’t make it but the cloudy was fine, and all the white spots fell off into the water. I heard fw dips don’t kill off the white spots on the fish regardless of ich or velvet but this seemed to work. Fish are all acting normal still. my chromis still hasn’t shown any sign, no flashing or anything.

Did the white spots settle to the bottom of the FW dip container and look like what you see below? If so, those are flukes: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/402275-flukes-fish-disease-information/

 

[Dawson_hatton]

they didn’t look quite that big, way smaller in fact. My chromis appears to occasionally scratch against the glass and my clownfish is doing fine. I seriously have no clue what it could be, it doesn’t quite look like ich or velvet. when I took my cloudy damsel out of the tank today I checked his gills and didn’t see anything, no spots, no mucus buildup, he seemed completely fine. while the chromis is scratching (which I forgot to mention is the only symptom he’s shown the whole time) he doesn’t have any visible symptoms, still eats, and mainly hangs with my clownfish. my blenny doesn’t show any real behavioral symptoms although last night I shined a light in the tank during lights out and noticed he was darting all around the tank, never seen that behavior before but it wasn’t against the glass or anything. during the day he acts completely normal. I feel rather bamboozled. still no deaths except the damsel that didn’t survive the fw dip. here’s a picture of it on my blenny. this fish is an inch long. it doesn’t match the description of velvet plus it’s not perfectly round but seems almost too small for ich.

[Dawson_hatton]

3 hours ago, Tamberav said:

The spots dropping is part of the life cycle, they drop off and reproduce and come back later. Garlic is just a myth imo... good to get picky fish to eat but some studies show it is actually bad for a fish to eat it long term. I use it to get new fish eating but that is about it. You would be better off soaking the food in selcon or fish oil... something nutritious/vitamin loaded.

you’re probably right. living in Hawaii I also have access to natural food sources like crushed up snails etc. 

[mcarroll]

@Dawson_hatton Can you tell us a little about the tank like:

When and how it was started?

What are you doing to maintain it?
How and when did the fish get in there?

What else is with them?

Etc?

 

All of these questions (and answers)are important to your current situation.  👍

 

Most of the time, ich comes from adding too many fish, too fast, to a tank that was poorly set up, or that was rushed – or both.  Picking sick fish to go in the tank is another potential problem.  Flatworms are much less common.

 

Ich isn't that hard to control even if that is what you're seeing.  A freshwater dip can still provide some relief to individual fish.  If you can catch and dip them a couple times a day AND eliminate the stress that was keeping the fish susceptible they will recover on their own and Ich won't come back.  "Fallow" is a fun word to throw around (and potentially useful so keep it in mind), but shouldn't be necessary in most cases.

 

Monogean flatworms are much easier to deal with.  And from the sound of how the dip went that's what you have.  

 

Ich and velvet critters are tiny by comparison....like the size of a salt crystal or smaller and I don't remember being able to see any in the container after a freshwater dip.  (Too small.)  

 

Worms, on the other hand, are more like the size of the head of a pin or larger.  Not necessarily "large" as pictured above, but definitely bigger than ich or velvet.  

 

Visible vs borderline microscopic.

 

 

[Dawson_hatton]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

@Dawson_hatton Can you tell us a little about the tank like:

When and how it was started?

What are you doing to maintain it?
How and when did the fish get in there?

What else is with them?

Etc?

 

All of these questions (and answers)are important to your current situation.  👍

 

Most of the time, ich comes from adding too many fish, too fast, to a tank that was poorly set up, or that was rushed – or both.  Picking sick fish to go in the tank is another potential problem.  Flatworms are much less common.

 

Ich isn't that hard to control even if that is what you're seeing.  A freshwater dip can still provide some relief to individual fish.  If you can catch and dip them a couple times a day AND eliminate the stress that was keeping the fish susceptible they will recover on their own and Ich won't come back.  "Fallow" is a fun word to throw around (and potentially useful so keep it in mind), but shouldn't be necessary in most cases.

 

Monogean flatworms are much easier to deal with.  And from the sound of how the dip went that's what you have.  

 

Ich and velvet critters are tiny by comparison....like the size of a salt crystal or smaller and I don't remember being able to see any in the container after a freshwater dip.  (Too small.)  

 

Worms, on the other hand, are more like the size of the head of a pin or larger.  Not necessarily "large" as pictured above, but definitely bigger than ich or velvet.  

 

Visible vs borderline microscopic.

 

 

they seem to be ich, especially with how the fish market exhibit symptoms. the tank is a 10 gallon and was supposed to be temporary until I could remove everything to a 20 gallon. I do about a 40% water change every week or two, have around 20 pounds of LR, and as I said, one damsel didn’t survive the fw dip while I gave the other away because of aggression issues. currently the tank has a false perc, a green chromis, and a Hawaiian triple fin blenny (usually don’t count that as part of my stock due to its size, it hitch hiked in my LR). Ammonia test 0, nitrite around 3 ppm or less, although I heard you don’t have to worry about nitrite, nitrate 20, and phosphates 0. currently the tank inhabitants have shown no symptoms at all. chromis scratched a little last night but eats like a monster, and mainly hangs with my clown, which also eats like a monster and doesn’t exhibit any symptoms including scratching. the spots on the damsels didn’t fit the dust-like description of velvet, or any of the behavioral symptoms either. currently I appear to not have anything to worry about considering without the damsels my tank appears to be pretty peaceful and stress free. I’m pretty sure if it was velvet, at least one of the 4 fish I did have in the tank would’ve died considering it’s rare for fish to develop velvet immunities.

[mcarroll]

52 minutes ago, Dawson_hatton said:

nitrite around 3 ppm or less, although I heard you don’t have to worry about nitrite

It's not a worry for toxicity in saltwater, but it's still a sign that your bio filter hasn't fully matured or that you overstocked the tank. (Same thing said from two perspectives.)

 

53 minutes ago, Dawson_hatton said:

nitrate 20, and phosphates 0.

Corals are going to be very unhappy with those levels.  Nitrates are like gasoline on the fire that is photosynthesis.  Phosphates are the protections from that fire...and there is none.

 

To clarify the metaphore...there's no problem with the amount of gas in your tank....the problem is the lack of protection.  If you're doing anything to remove phosphates from the tank, stop.

 

I'd lay off of those humongous water changes....shouldn't be necessary.  Either stop altogether or reduce the amount and frequency....instead of 40% weekly, maybe do 10% every other week or once a month, or just do 5% weekly.

 

55 minutes ago, Dawson_hatton said:

currently I appear to not have anything to worry about considering without the damsels my tank appears to be pretty peaceful and stress free.

If you dispensed with the aggression issue by getting rid of those fish, then I agree.  The remaining fish should get better and be fine from here on out, presuming there are no new stresses introduced.  👍

[Dawson_hatton]

the coral seem to be doing fine, they all are open and eat well. My tank is only around a couple months old so that’s probably the issue with nitrites. the water conditioner I use removes phosphates but I technically don’t need conditioner, considering I get my water from the ocean here in Hawaii. so far the fish do appear healthy and happy, same with my inverts. I’ll keep you guys updated. thanks for the advice!

[Dawson_hatton]

guys, turned out it was indeed velvet. my clown is showing all the symptoms of it, the chromis is still completely unaffected. they are both still eating but the clown is swimming in the current and looks a bit dusty near his dorsal fin. I set up a quarantine bucket but the issue is I don’t have any fricken treatment and my local petco is out of stock. what can I do to treat is with things around the house? if the clown is still eating is that a good sign? I need help guys, I don’t wanna loose my clown, he’s my favorite fish. 

[mcarroll]

In order of least invasive to most invasive:
 

Freshwater dip.  (Requires dechlorinator.)

Peroxide dip.  (Ditto.)

 

Can't think of anything else you'd likely have around the house.

 

For what it's worth, it's REALLY strange (but not impossible) that a Clown would show velvet before the MUCH more susceptible Chromis.

 

Any chance you can get a pic?  (Maybe while you're doing one of the dips.)

[Dawson_hatton]

well it’s super hard to see and is really small so I doubt the camera will actually be able to get it. I dosed my tank with peroxide and did a freshwater dip, and the clownfish appears to be acting normal now. I’m going to keep up the peroxide dosing until I get my copper treatment which will take around a week. I also noticed my clown had a couple nips on his fins but i’m not sure how that happened since my chromis is generally less aggressive than my clown. some of the spots I think are just the mucus buildup, since I did do a 10 minute fw dip.at an angle you can see all the dots and it looks like dusting. my chromis seems to have an immunity. what’s even more worrying is that more dots have seemed to appear in a short span of time. I’m really hoping my clownfish is as hardy as my damsels and doesn’t have much affect from them. there’s no scratching or really any symptoms at the moment aside from the visible ones.

[mcarroll]

If there's no scratching (technically called "flashing") then it's possible it's neither ich nor velvet.  Stay vigilant and keep us posted!

 

(BTW, the peroxide is supposed to be a dip vs being dosed to the tank....probably no big deal, but look up the proper dose rate for doing a dip...think there's a thread or @Humblefish probably knows off-hand.)

[Humblefish]

There is some experimentation being done with in-tank H2O2 dosing, but it seems very hit or miss for fish disease purposes.

 

I primarily advocate it as a 30 min bath to provide temporary relief: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/405330-hydrogen-peroxide-fish-treatment-information/

[Dawson_hatton]

well he’s back to swimming in the current so I did a peroxide/fw dip and now he’s swimming kinda tipsy, and now no eating. I ordered cupramine and I’m going to qt all the fish in the tank. at least I can save my blenny who seems to be ridden but not phased, and my chromis. hoping the clown makes it by the time I get the cupramine which is going to be a week or maybe a little less. this really shows the importance of qt. my plan for the future is to convert my 20 gallon long (which is fw) into a saltwater tank and dump everything from the 10 into the 20 and leave it fallow for a couple months while I treat my fish in the 10 and use it as a qt. it kind of offers for a fresh start, but every fish I get for now on will definitely be quarantined.

[Dawson_hatton]

update, lots of mucus buildup on the clown, the peroxide appears to have killed off my zoas but not my anemone, the clown showed a little interest in food today which is a little improvement but still wouldn’t eat. really hoping he’ll make it by the time I get the cupramine.