water parameters- need help

[Arod0416]

Hello everyone, 

 

I have a 55 gallon with a few fishes in there. I admit i started this tank with a few fishes- a tank, goby, clownfish and a chromis. My tank been up for a month now and none of my fishes died yet. I did experienced diatoms and i can see they are starting to fade away. Also, i finally got my rodi equipment two weeks ago and did  a 15% water change so far. 

Finally being in the reef community, i figured out adding fishes right away wasnt an ideal thing. When i was getting into this, i was watching youtube videos and followed the steps. i seen that they added fishes the same day by adding live sand and ocean water- which i did as well. But, i was unaware of the cycling process. so, i am learning as i go, and i know better for any future tanks i want if i wanted to upgrade. I am definietly going through trial and error. 

 

my water parameters so far is:

temp: 77

salinity: 1.025

ph: 8.2

ammonia: 0.25 ppm

nitrite: 0 

nitrate: 80 or 160 ppm ( increased from 40 to 80 or 160 ppm in 2 weeks). 

phopshate: 1

 

 

I used phosguard, the required amount for my tank and my phosphate has not reduced. i went from feeding my fishes every other day to every 3-4 days. How can i lower my water parameters. my ammonia in API kit and salifert kit been at the same level since i started. 

 

Also, i have live carbisea sand - white and black. 

[Clown79]

Using phosguard can easily strip the tank of phosphate and in a tank, you don't want that, it will bring more problems than you want 

 

Ammonia is still present because of the fish in the tank and the cycling process. Same with nitrates.

 

Normally after cycling a tank, the nitrates are very high, a 15% water change will only reduce it by a small amount.

So it's common to do a 80-100% waterchange after cycling- difficult with fish in the tank.

 

It's not just about feeding, the system needs to process all the nutrients/waste.

 

The one thing you can do is add bio spira which will help with the cycling.

[Chriss Fishes]

Welcome to the forum!

 

We all make mistakes, especially when we're new to something. The majority of us didn't start with an objectively "good" tank - there's usually a lot of "Why are my fish sick/dying?" which leads to a Google search, and hopefully lands them on a forum like this one, where they can get help and learn.

 

Since you seem to have learned about the Nitrogen Cycle, you probably realize that your cycle isn't established yet. You still have some ammonia at readable levels, and your nitrates are sky-high - both of those things are pretty unhealthy for your tank inhabitants, especially the ammonia. I'd personally go ahead and do a 50% water change ASAP, and re-test. Changing out water at this point will extend the amount of time until the cycle is completely established, but it'll take some pressure off of your fish. I'd focus on keeping ammonia and nitrite under/around 0.25 and nitrates under 40 until the tank is cycled, at which point you should have 0 ammonia and nitrite, and preferably under 20 nitrate or so.

 

I agree with Clown above - using Phosguard at this point is just going to strip your tank of phosphate, which can lead to a whole slew of pest issues (pest algae and bacteria). I'd remove that, do the water change, and keep on testing. A bottled bacteria product like Bio-Spira or Dr. Tim's One and Only would probably help speed up the cycle.

[Arod0416]

Thank you both for the feedback! Yes, joining this and reef2reef I was able to learn the nitrogen process which, YouTube videos only explained how to set up saltwater tanks and add fishes. The most common YouTube videos does not explain the cycling process. But, these forums has very experienced reefers and even professionals. Even articles that I cannot find in google. So, I am learning as I go. But, there are a lot of opinions and different methods that has worked for them but not doesn’t work with others. That being said, I can hear the advices but, it is important to do more research as well, taking inconsideration from the reefers on the forum. 

I was planning to do a large water change but, I didn’t want to restart the cycling process. But, from the looks of it, I have to do a large water change. Especially I have the rodi equipment, I hope things are different. 
 

I have been using prime here and there. So, today I’m going to make about 50-60% percent of water change. Well tomorrow because I need rodi water! Which takes extremely long haha. Just one 5 gallon bucket takes me 3 and half hours. Once I get this down packed. I will test over the weekend to see if everything is good money. Also, I will add the bio spira as well. 
 

I did add dr tims one and only when I first started this tank - 1 week in. 

 

 

[Clown79]

16 minutes ago, Arod0416 said:

Thank you both for the feedback! Yes, joining this and reef2reef I was able to learn the nitrogen process which, YouTube videos only explained how to set up saltwater tanks and add fishes. The most common YouTube videos does not explain the cycling process. But, these forums has very experienced reefers and even professionals. Even articles that I cannot find in google. So, I am learning as I go. But, there are a lot of opinions and different methods that has worked for them but not doesn’t work with others. That being said, I can hear the advices but, it is important to do more research as well, taking inconsideration from the reefers on the forum. 

I was planning to do a large water change but, I didn’t want to restart the cycling process. But, from the looks of it, I have to do a large water change. Especially I have the rodi equipment, I hope things are different. 
 

I have been using prime here and there. So, today I’m going to make about 50-60% percent of water change. Well tomorrow because I need rodi water! Which takes extremely long haha. Just one 5 gallon bucket takes me 3 and half hours. Once I get this down packed. I will test over the weekend to see if everything is good money. Also, I will add the bio spira as well. 
 

I did add dr tims one and only when I first started this tank - 1 week in. 

 

 

If you are using Prime and an ammonia tester like api, the api results won't be accurate within 48hrs of using prime. Using the seachem ammonia badge is the way to go while using prime as it's not effected by the Prime.

 

Waterchanges won't effect your cycle. The bacteria is built on surfaces like liverock, not really in the water.

 

Depending on the water you were using prior to RODI, you may have been adding nitrates into the tank, which waterchanges won't help reduce the levels if the water put back into the tank has nutrients in it 

[Arod0416]

The water I began with was imagitarium ocean water 35 gallons worth and I added the remaining tap water which later I tested out and it was high in ammonia. Which later I found out adding ocean water from the store and using tap water was bad. That is why I got the rodi equipment. The last two weeks I have done 15 gallons of water change. Before I did any water changes, I had ammonia 0.25 and nitrate at 40 ppm. Also, I learned that prime doesn’t let the results be accurate either. That’s why I test 3-4 days later when I add prime now. 
 

do you recommend a lArge amount of water change and add bio spira as well? 

[Garf]

1 hour ago, Arod0416 said:

The water I began with was imagitarium ocean water 35 gallons worth and I added the remaining tap water which later I tested out and it was high in ammonia. Which later I found out adding ocean water from the store and using tap water was bad. That is why I got the rodi equipment. The last two weeks I have done 15 gallons of water change. Before I did any water changes, I had ammonia 0.25 and nitrate at 40 ppm. Also, I learned that prime doesn’t let the results be accurate either. That’s why I test 3-4 days later when I add prime now. 
 

do you recommend a lArge amount of water change and add bio spira as well? 

How much rock do you have in your tank?  

 

Also, my experience with the Imagitarium water is that the dkh can measure pretty high on it, what I do not know is if a rapid reduction in alkalinity would affect the fish adversely. I do know corals and any inverts would not like it at all, so maybe it would be a good idea to measure the dkh, at least as a baseline. Then adjust the initial large water change as needed. Basically, bring the tank in line with the params in your saltwater mix as quickly as you can without killing the fish. 

 

Replace 50% of the water, then do smaller water changes (5g every 4-5 days) over a few weeks to make it easier on your fish (and your time). I would not add anything else, nor run any other media than filter pad or floss, and charcol.  No phosguard or prime, let the rock and sand do its thing.  If you added Dr. Tims, there should be no need to add the bio spira. Treat this as a new cylce, toss out the first month as if it doesnt count. Do no add any corals, fish or inverts. After three weeks, you should be pretty close to having replaced all the initial water, then I would start monitoring dkh and ca, and bring your tank parameters in line with your saltwater mix params.  

 

 

[Arod0416]

What if my dkh isn’t high? 
 

 

I do have a fluval canister. Do you recommend I clean out my filter? 
 

if my dkh is high, I should do the large amount of water change and repeat 5gallons of water change weekly. And possibly cleaning out the filter since you suggest starting this as a “new cycle”?? 
 

if so, should I add phosguard to one of media’s in the canister since my phosphate level is high.

[Clown79]

52 minutes ago, Arod0416 said:

What if my dkh isn’t high? 
 

 

I do have a fluval canister. Do you recommend I clean out my filter? 
 

if my dkh is high, I should do the large amount of water change and repeat 5gallons of water change weekly. And possibly cleaning out the filter since you suggest starting this as a “new cycle”?? 
 

if so, should I add phosguard to one of media’s in the canister since my phosphate level is high.

No phosguard. The high phos is not a big issue, many of us run high phos.

 

If you strip the tank of phos you run into bigger problems like dino's.

 

At this stage just running floss and carbon is good. You need to get the cycle finished and everything on track.

 

1 large waterchange with rodi or distilled water to get the nitrates down, then back to normal size waterchanges.

[Arod0416]

After being in reef2reef and here, many people are telling me to do a large water change which I was thinking about doing but, just wanted confirmations from experienced reefers/professionals. 
 

i will be making rodi water the next 2 days and going to start the big water change on Saturday. Since I added dr tims one and only when I first began the tank (3 1/2 weeks ago). I shouldn’t add any bio spira or dr tims again? 
 

 

also, when I do the big water change, should I add any prime?

[Tired]

You should really do a big water change much sooner, or add Prime, or both, before the ammonia causes permanent damage to your fish. If you can't get enough water for a big water change, do a small one now, then another later, and so on.

[Arod0416]

I think I’m going to add prime this morning which should stabilize the tank until Saturday when I do the big water change because I need to make the rodi water. I have been doing weekly water changes ever since I got the rodi equipment. But, suddenly my nitrate increased so much, and my nitrite hasn’t went up. From the nitrogen process, I learned that ammonia gets to 0, then nitrite consumes it and then turns into nitrate. I know when my tank is cycled when my ammonia and nitrite is reading 0. But, at this point it is hard to determine because I was cycling with fish and I went a few days without testing to even see if there was a change. Do you think my sand bed has anything to do with it for the increase nitrate. When I got my rodi equipment, I added another bag of live black caribsea and white sand.

[Arod0416]

the black caribsea sand: 

 

Biologically and mineralogically complete sand

substrate for saltwater aquariums. Contains specially engineered bacteria to suppress ";new tank syndrome";. Discourages nuisance algae. Never needs replacement.

• Aids in the growth of corals
• Buffers for the life of the aquarium
• Helps maintain a proper pH of 8.2 without constant chemical additions
• Discourages nuisance algae growth

 

white caribsea sand:

 

Beautiful marine substrate packed with millions of heterotrophic, autotrophic, and chemolithotrophic bacteria. Huge beneficial bacteria population aids in waste reduction and dramatically reduces cycling time in new setups. Use alone or to kick-start existing substrate bed. Arag-Alive is specially egineered to supress "new tank syndrome" and compress the ammonia cycle. It's like having a nitrite and nitrate filter, ammonia reducer, and a high-capacity biological filter for your marine aquarium. Includes Bio-Magnet clarifier to clear water fast and enhance biological efficiency. Arag-Alive marine substrates contain aragonite, a source of calcium, carbonate, and beneficial trace elements to, naturally maintain proper pH without the constant addition of chemicals. 

Contains more surface area for bacterial adhesion: approximately 20,000 square inches per cubic inch for unsurpassed performance in reducing nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia. Never needs to be replaced and works with natural bacteria to enhance performance over the full life of your aquarium. 

Lowest in phosphate and does not contain tar, harmful organics, silica, or other impurities. Used by the foremost public aquariums, research and government institutions, and professionals worldwide.

 

 

 

this is why I bought the live sand but, when I am more knowledgeable and is successful with my tank, I will not be using live sand again.

[Tired]

Live sand is good and has definitely not caused your problem. Your problem is having added multiple fish before your cycle was done, and that is the ONLY thing causing your problem. 

 

What kind of tang? Most get too big for a 55.

[Arod0416]

A yellow tang, that is going to be the only tang I have in my tank. Because I end up learning that my tank is too small to have multiples and KIND OF okay for my yellow tang to be in my tank right now. I wish I would’ve knew about forums beforehand because my LFS played the shit out of me. LFS can be tricky, some are looking out for you while others arent. The ones that aren’t are trying to get some money out of everything. Making problems for you, just so you can go back

[Tamberav]

Sorry you got bad advice. Rushing generally leads to more work and wasted $ which is why people constantly say to have patience in this hobby. 

 

Unfortunately good resources on YouTube are usually buried by 100 other video's of 💩. Forums are set up for sharing information so if you post poo, it becomes obvious when 10 other people chime in.

 

I would be doing a large water change as others said.

 

If you plan on a reef, that canister will likely need to be cleaned regularly. Many people don't use them on reefs because of the extra maintenance required. 

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 2/26/2020 at 10:46 AM, Arod0416 said:

When i was getting into this, i was watching youtube videos and followed the steps.

Eek......no substitute for a good book.

 

A good book would cover almost everything you need to know.

 

I'd try this one first:

Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder by Martin A. Moe, Jr.

 

Can you post a picture of the tank?

 

If you're PO4 is really measureing 1.0 ppm then it'll take A LOT of phosguard to even make a dent.  BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL IN HOW YOU USE IT.

 

The instruction call for a specific dose to be used for 4 days.....and to replace that dose if PO4 is still not under control.  Repeat every 4 days until you get the level you want.  (I would not target 0.02 ppm as the directions suggest though....too low.  0.10 ppm is low enough....a 90% reduction from your current level.

)

 

From www.seachem.com › phosguard: (emphasis mine)

Quote

Directions

May generate heat on initial contact with water. Pre-wet by adding to a double volume of freshwater, followed by a rinse. For best results, PhosGuard™ should be rinsed before use and placed so as to maximize the flow of water through it but not so that it tumbles against itself in flow. It may be used in a canister filter, media chamber, box filter, or any high flow area of a trickle filter. Use of a filter bag is recommended. Use 85 mL (1/3 cup) for every 200 L (50 US gallons) saltwater or 400 L (100 US gallons) freshwater.

 

Leave product in place for 4 days, then test phosphate or silicate concentrations with either MultiTest™ Phosphate or MultiTest™ Silicate. If the concentration of the component you are trying to decrease has not dropped to around 0.02 mg/L, then replace the PhosGuard™, otherwise leave in place until levels begin to climb again. As long as concentrations remain under control, the product is not exhausted. Over treating is not recommended. PhosGuard™ is not an exchange resin and does not release anything into the water. It does not leach phosphate or silicate back into the water and may be removed, dried, and returned to service until exhausted. Continuous use of small quantities is better than intermittent use of larger quantities.

 

On 2/26/2020 at 2:59 PM, Arod0416 said:

tap water which later I tested out and it was high in ammonia

Your tap water has significant levels of ammonia straight from the tap???   

 

Ammonia - Water Quality Association

 

Ugh.....compromised water quality standards thanks to industrial agriculture.   We can't make run-off illegal or even regulate it now can we????  🙄

 

By chance were you testing the fraction of ammonia left over after dechlorinating water that had chloramines (ie chlorine + ammonia in one molecule) in it?

 

What level were you seeing again?

On 2/26/2020 at 10:46 AM, Arod0416 said:

ammonia: 0.25 ppm

 

I'm not sure that 0.25 ppm (one quarter of one part per million????) is worth stressing over in any event....that's a minuscule amount.

 

Plus there's a good chance that you've mistaken a zero reading for 0.25 ppm.....they are hard to tell apart as you'll see if you google "0.25 ppm ammonia".  You don't even have to mention the test kit but that's still what EVERY result is about.

 

Unless I missed something (in which case my bad....but I tried to read through!) then your tank didn't get...

On 2/26/2020 at 10:46 AM, Arod0416 said:

nitrate: 80 or 160 ppm ( increased from 40 to 80 or 160 ppm in 2 weeks)

...by NOT having a working nitrogen cycle during that period.

 

I would be more suspect of the ammonia test number than anything else.

 

The fact that you used One and Only AND live sand should make this true as well, unless you didn't follow the directions on the bottle AND the bad of sand was "bad" which I'm not sure how that would be the case.

 

Adding more of that or Bio Spira now should be unnecessary for the same reason.

 

ONE AND ONLY AND BIO-SPIRA ARE BOTH MADE TO GO IN AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR FISH. 

 

That way the bacteria feed and stabilize quickly vs dying off and shrinking in population due to no available ammonia.

 

FYI lots of people don't see the nitrite spike....conversion from ammonia > nitrite > nitrate is often done almost simultaneously, with all the bacteria living up on each other.

 

IMO take a breath and take a break from this thread to reassess the whole situation....to me this thread looks like it's going in circles.  (Or tell me what I missed in the reading.)  😉