pmang6's 9.1g Long V2.0: Bare and Brash

[pmang6]

12 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Can't explain it, but it definitely wasn't related to the salt....if it was you'd see millions of posts from all the IO users out there.  Glad it stopped happening regardless tho – how peculiar!!

Yea that one's definitely a headscratcher. I don't think the salt was a direct cause, but perhaps a "dirtier" salt mix allowed for more growth of whatever was already on my pump/heater/bucket than the pharma grade stuff. There are a few other threads about this out there, most people simply ignore it and proceed as usual with the clouded water, as its likely pretty harmless. I just wanted to rule that out as a factor for the bacterial bloom issues I was having at the time.

 

16 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Well, nothing is really as simple as it seems, right?  😉

Not in this hobby anyways...

 

17 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

The reality is that your rocks ARE growing something (it shows up in the pics) and it's something that you'd like to be eaten up and replaced with something nicer like hair algae or coralline algae.  As long as the snails aren't grooming the rock, it will stay populated with what's growing there now.  And the current snails can't eat what's growing there now because in all likelihood it's grown too large for them.  They have tiny mouths and no ability to chew to tear at something like a fish or a mammal could...all they can do is "lick" like they're gong after an eternal ice-cream cone. 😉 So we have to clear off the old-growth algae for them to have a good start.

 

Got it. So for right now, since I'm on a water change freeze, how would you recommend cleaning the rocks without leaving a pile of detritus in the tank? I was thinking about mounting a filter sock on the side of a bucket and siphoning water through it, then just dumping the clean water back in the tank. 

 

22 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Very possible that's what it is, but I hate making assumptions when I don't have to.  Can you scrub it off easily and siphon it out?  Until we confirm/deny that's what it is, this is how I'd try to handle it.

It resists simple hand fanning and turkey basting pretty well, but I'm sure a toothbrush would do the job.

 

23 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

BTW, if you want to spend a little, there is a nice (used) binocular scope with high-end lenses (so-called "plan lenses") for around $200 up on Craigslist in your area....prolly was a $300-$400 (or more) scope when new.  Worth taking a look.  👍

Doing a little shopping are we? That looks awesome, but its a bit much for me at this point. I want something better than a toy scope but I'm still on a college budget!

 

26 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

If you see detritus rolling around the sand in the current, then you have an issue.

Gotcha... yea that brings a certain corner of the tank to mind.

 

27 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Last I spoke with them they hadn't been able to go diving for rock in months due to crappy dive weather.  Let me know if you find out otherwise!  👍

Thats what I heard from Gulf Coast Ecosystems as well. I wonder if theyre referencing surface conditions or visibility in the water. Thats gotta be rough for those businesses on top of all the covid chaos.

 

29 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

No LFS or friends in the hobby that might have something for you?

Actually, funny enough, I saw an aquarium maintenance van from one of the big reef shops in the area outside my neighbors house the other day. I'll have to ask him if I catch him outside one of these days. I'm lucky to have several LFSs in my area, so I should be able to get something out of one or a couple of them. In theory, if I get my hands on some reef muck, how would I "dose" it? Just dump it in all at once?

 

42 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

For example, @Paul B often collects in mud flats....but I think that's because he's also trying to collect amphipods that are resident there.

Thats pretty hardcore. The word mudflats brings to mind some places in the mosquito lagoon, but the muck there is basically just pure black organic mater with a thin covering of fine sand. Its probably insanely dense with all kinds of fun biodiversity, but I'm not sure I have the cajones to dump something like that in my tank. I'd also question whether the salinity in the lagoon would be high enough to support fully marine bacteria strains, as I know there are entirely different species of bacteria that inhabit the same niche but at different salinity levels.

 

52 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Which it is, more or less.  But that is not to say that it can't work...just that it's not very quick or very precise compared to dosing....which is both immediate and exact.  (Phyto is prolly a lot more expensive too.)

Makes sense, I'll stick with dosing. Kinda weird how this hobby is so terrified of nutrients. Its like you can't just tell someone they need to add nutrients, it has to be wrapped up in some story about coral feeding and green water. We have no problem dumping baking soda in our tanks to encourage coral growth but god forbid you add something that is inherently fundamental to photosynthetic life, like phosphorus or nitrogen!

[A.m.P]

There are a few brands of phyto on Amazon for under $8, like Kent marine, I don't use the live stuff myself. After dosing up to 0.1 P04, small weekly additions of phyto are enough to keep my P04 steady, while being in a form which encourages pod populations and may be somewhat more accessible to corals.

[pmang6]

1 hour ago, Amphrites said:

There are a few brands of phyto on Amazon for under $8, like Kent marine, I don't use the live stuff myself. After dosing up to 0.1 P04, small weekly additions of phyto are enough to keep my P04 steady, while being in a form which encourages pod populations and may be somewhat more accessible to corals.

Yea, its something I might play with in the future. If I do it I want to just culture it myself though, it seems pretty easy. 

 

Question about phosphate dosing, I'm using the seachem kit which doesnt exactly have phenomenal accuracy in the .xx range, but I'm confident that I'm at a very low reading because my tank water looks the same as my rodi water when tested. Should I follow the recommended dosage from the neophos bottle or just go until i get a detectable level? If I understand correctly I can also expect nitrates to reduce at some point when adding phosphates?

[A.m.P]

The seachem kit is fine, you can dilute the vial they sent of known solution to compare the color results, in all likelyhood it will take more than the required dose to 0.1 to get a reading past .02 because your tank is liable to uptake allot of it. N03 dropping from P04 dosing is a possibility, but I wouldn't expect it to happen, or at least not quickly.

[pmang6]

2 hours ago, Amphrites said:

The seachem kit is fine, you can dilute the vial they sent of known solution to compare the color results, in all likelyhood it will take more than the required dose to 0.1 to get a reading past .02 because your tank is liable to uptake allot of it. N03 dropping from P04 dosing is a possibility, but I wouldn't expect it to happen, or at least not quickly.

So I guess just have faith in the test and add until its detectable? I'm hesitant to go pouring this stuff in. Is there an upper limit for a daily dose?

[pmang6]

@mcarroll scope on order from amazon. Was able to get an amscope metal body "kids" model for a cool 22$ with amazon warehouse deals. Will be here on friday.

 

A question regarding adding phosphate, how liberal can I be with it if I'm not seeing a detectable level? Do I just keep going? Added 5ml today, in theory enough to get the level up to ~.15 according to the instructions, but saw no change on the test. Is there a max daily dose I should stay below? 

 

Also, my coral is pissed. I'm not going to pretend it looked great before the dinos, but man, everything but the ricordea and the the birdsnest is looking pretty grim. Is there any steps I can take to protect my coral specifically or just cross my fingers and hold on?

 

Sorry if I'm being overbearing with questions, trying to read as much as I can but its hard to quickly find specific info in hundreds of pages of forum threads. Just want to make sure I'm on the right track.

[mcarroll]

8 hours ago, pmang6 said:

So I guess just have faith in the test and add until its detectable? I'm hesitant to go pouring this stuff in. Is there an upper limit for a daily dose?

No upper limit.  

 

In my huge dino thread I remember some folks overdosing....no issues.  

 

Further, I've seen a journal article where they grew acro's at PO4 levels up to 5.0 ppm.   No apparent stress and the corals were observably more healthy at the insane high level than at levels closer to "normal".

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

A question regarding adding phosphate, how liberal can I be with it if I'm not seeing a detectable level?

I usually recommend testing first, then calculate a proper dose to attain 0.10 ppm and add it to the tank.   Then re-test in 20min to an hour to see how much has been used.

 

It wasn't common, but due (mostly) to bacterial consumption, some folks in the dino thread have had to immediately re-dose 2 or 3 times in order to get an actual residual level of 0.10 ppm.

 

So do that however many times it takes to get a residual of 0.10 ppm.  Once you have that, you should be able to get away with daily doses (maybe less).

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Also, my coral is pissed. I'm not going to pretend it looked great before the dinos, but man, everything but the ricordea and the the birdsnest is looking pretty grim. Is there any steps I can take to protect my coral specifically or just cross my fingers and hold on?

Adding phosphates is going to provide immediate relief from any additional damage the corals are taking from phosphate-deprived photosynthesis.

 

Unfortunately, it will do nothing immediately for damage that has already happened.  I would presume that months may pass before your corals can make a complete turnaround.  

 

Adding a new coral once things have stabilized and turned around will give you a better barometer for how things are going currently.

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Sorry if I'm being overbearing with questions, trying to read as much as I can but its hard to quickly find specific info in hundreds of pages of forum threads. Just want to make sure I'm on the right track.

All good, and I think you are on track.

 

Activated Carbon

You should have picked this up from the dino thread already, but I don't remember if I asked here:  

 

Are you using some kind of activated carbon vs dino toxins?   If not, you should be.  

 

Run 1/4 the dose called for on the instructions but replace it 4x as often as called for.  

 

I think 1 cup per 100 gallons and changed monthly might be the common standard...to use that as an example, convert to 1/4 cup per 100 gallons and change it out weekly.

[pmang6]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

No upper limit.  

Got it, will dose till I see it!

 

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It wasn't common, but due (mostly) to bacterial consumption, some folks in the dino thread have had to immediately re-dose 2 or 3 times in order to get an actual residual level of 0.10 ppm.

Sounds like what I'm seeing. Added 5ml over 2 doses yesterday and saw no discernible difference comparing my tank water to rodi water with my test. Just now dosed 4ml, will test when I get back from work and likely dose again.

 

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I would presume that months may pass before your corals can make a complete turnaround.  

Right, thats about what I expected. Just wanted to see if I should be blowing the dinos off them or anything if it comes to that.

 

Also, I'm going to try feeding later today, but in the event I dont get much of a feeding response, should I just ghost feed my usual chunk of LRS to keep the input steady?

 

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

All good, and I think you are on track.

 

Good, thats what I want to hear!

 

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Are you using some kind of activated carbon vs dino toxins?   If not, you should be.  

 

Run 1/4 the dose called for on the instructions but replace it 4x as often as called for.  

 

I think 1 cup per 100 gallons and changed monthly might be the common standard...to use that as an example, convert to 1/4 cup per 100 gallons and change it out weekly.

Yea, it appears I'm running way too much carbon by that standard. The bag I'm using is probably somewhere around half a cup, on a "9.1 gallon" (probably closer to 7 or 8 actual volume) tank. Gonna have to find some panty hose because I dont think they sell carbon in 30g bags lol.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Just wanted to see if I should be blowing the dinos off them or anything if it comes to that.

If they're actually growing across corals (which isn't that common), then yes blow or siphon them off.

 

6 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Also, I'm going to try feeding later today

Were you not feeding the tank at all, or are you talking about target feeding corals, or what does this mean exactly?

 

6 hours ago, pmang6 said:

in the event I dont get much of a feeding response, should I just ghost feed my usual chunk of LRS to keep the input steady?

Ghost feeding (fancy name for over feeding) is almost never recommended, but pls clarify to make sure I get what you're suggesting.  👍

 

6 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Yea, it appears I'm running way too much carbon by that standard.

Too much is better than none – the tank animals should be mostly protected from any toxins.  

 

And if this new way is a hassle you can keep doing what you're doing....but running newer carbon (which is more active than old carbon) by halving the replacement time should make it work "better" on average.

 

 

[pmang6]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If they're actually growing across corals (which isn't that common), then yes blow or siphon them off.

Gotcha.

 

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Were you not feeding the tank at all, or are you talking about target feeding corals, or what does this mean exactly?

I have not fed since friday, which is pretty normal for this tank. I am asking about target feeding corals, that is the only kind of feeding I've been doing lately. I'm concerned that most of the coral will not readily ingest the food, as its all closed tightly. (Except for the ricordeas. They couldnt care less.) In the event that nothing eats, should I still add food to the tank to maintain a stable level of nutrient import?

 

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Too much is better than none – the tank animals should be mostly protected from any toxins.  

 

And if this new way is a hassle you can keep doing what you're doing....but running newer carbon (which is more active than old carbon) by halving the replacement time should make it work "better" on average.

 

Ok, yea I was about due for new carbon anyway.

 

 

The dinos have really arrived now. Everything is starting to look noticeably brown as opposed to the few strands here and there that it was. Strangely enough, theres actually a good bit of cyano growing around in different spots, on the corals' skeletons in some cases, on the sand bed and a few spots on the rocks. There was some cyano present before the dinos, but it seems like the phosphate is allowing it to spread. Good competition for the dinos, no? Going to start manual removal in a big way tomorrow. Would have liked to have done it earlier but I've been wrapped up between school and work. 

 

 

[mcarroll]

56 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

In the event that nothing eats, should I still add food to the tank to maintain a stable level of nutrient import?

It's a decent presumption that most coral food will not be eaten.

 

Perfect tank conditions (esp. flow) combined with the exact correct food item can raise the chances, but that's a trial-and-error thing.  IMO only really appropriate if you're farming corals...otherwise not worth the hassle.

 

The best bet is to feed your fish WELL. (Not saying overfeed.) Feed them the best quality food you can (live>frozen>processed) and let their poops and pees be the coral food.

 

59 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

Good competition for the dinos, no?

That's the hope, but keep your eye on things and maintain that PO4 level.  

 

Cyano popping up where it wasn't before is definitely a good sign, albeit a small one. We'll hope it's the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.  👍

 

 

[pmang6]

3 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

The best bet is to feed your fish WELL. (Not saying overfeed.) Feed them the best quality food you can (live>frozen>processed) and let their poops and pees be the coral food.

Small problem... theres no fish in this tank. 😅

[mcarroll]

Doh! 😉

[mcarroll]

Too many threads and I forgot where this one started.  

 

Planning to stay fishless?  (That's how my reef was for prolly 8/10 years before I moved it into the current tank.)

 

If there are none and will be none to feed, then I'd keep doing what you're doing.

 

If nitrates ever get low, then you could consider either target feeding or a conservative amino acid dosing regime.  

 

Stay patient and try not to jump to the conclusion that either of those will become a necessity though...it's possible you won't have to do anything special once the zero-PO4 conditions have given way to replete-PO4 conditions.

[pmang6]

2 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Too many threads and I forgot where this one started.  

 Not a problem. Its very generous of you to spend your free time helping people like me in the first place.

 

4 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Planning to stay fishless?  (That's how my reef was for prolly 8/10 years before I moved it into the current tank.)

 Most likely yea, fishless. There just arent many fish out there that tick all my boxes:

Captive bred

Small enough for this tank

Not a jumper

Truly solitary (not "solitary" like firefish, chromis and other schooling fish that are kept singly often)

Available locally or online without an outrageous shipping charge that is 3x the cost of the fish

 

I have, however, entertained the idea of a cleaner shrimp or group of sexy shrimp.

22 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Stay patient

That's the hard part!

[mcarroll]

5 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

schooling fish

It's kind of a misnomer/techicalty, but those fish are gregarious, not schoolers.  

 

We don't really have schooling fish in the hobby.  FGreshwater has a ton though!  

 

Even most of the Tangs we have aren't real schoolers.

 

That technicality aside, I'm with you on all points....pretty much why I didn't really have fish until I upgraded from 36" tanks to a 72" tank.

 

Here's a fish that I did REALLY like for my small tanks:  The Barnacle Blenny

 

You might find a few other vids of them:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=barnacle+blenny+says+hi

 

Here's a link that'll show some photos I've posted (prolly others' photos too):

https://www.google.com/search?q=barnacle+blenny+mcarroll

 

13 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

I have, however, entertained the idea of a cleaner shrimp or group of sexy shrimp.

Never went with a cleaner in the smaller tanks, but should be fine.

 

I did have Sexy Shrimp tho....up to 6 at once during one period.

 

Can't seem to find any pics of mine now....but I suspect you know enough about them already. 😉

[pmang6]

Got my microscope a day early! What do you guys think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tried some manual removal today. Protip: a 300 micron sock does not capture dinos. At all. Going to have to order a real fine one. Also, it seemed like i was mostly just turning over the sand and hiding the dinos, not really removing them. 

 

[mcarroll]

50µ or 100µ at minimum....10µ wouldn't be too small.

 

Seems like some dino's, but lots of other stuff too.

 

Was there much moving?

[pmang6]

On 5/5/2020 at 1:56 PM, mcarroll said:

50µ or 100µ at minimum....10µ wouldn't be too small.

 

Seems like some dino's, but lots of other stuff too.

 

Was there much moving?

There was a lot of movement, the dinos were moving pretty quick in circles.

 

Unfortunately the dinos caused something of a tank crash. They went from noticeable to thickly covering every surface including all the corals in a matter of 1 or 2 nights and manual removal didnt seem to slow them down at all. This killed an rfa and the dominos fell from there. What i ended up doing was basically restarting the tank with some nice old live rock from an lfs. I also removed the sand entirely. 

 

Thanks for your help through this mess@mcarroll , hopefully i wont have to deal with dinos again.

 

 

Will add some pics with the new scape later today. 

[pmang6]

Meant to put up a pic when i revamped the tank, here ya go:

 

 

Still have everything just chillin on the bottom for now, planning on getting most of the frags up on the rocks here shortly.