Tank Issues And ICP Results

[MrObscura]

Hi, some of you may be familiar with my tank. For those of you who are not...it's a nuvo 10 mixed reef. It's been up for about a year and 4 months and for no apparent reason it's struggling. 

 

If interested in all the details you can check out my tank thread 

 

 

Anyway, as a last resort I sent in an ICP test and just got the results and just few a things stood out.

 

Iodine is low @ 22.64 with a listed target of 64.81

 

Molybdenum is low 5.25

 

Manganese is low/undetectable

 

Vanadium is low/undetectable

 

Tin is high 5.47

 

And my ro water tested high in copper @ 1.88 yet the display showed none.

 

Any thoughts? Thanks. 

[mcarroll]

I don't think any of that's likely to be a problem...but what's your water change schedule like?

[MrObscura]

15% or so weekly.

[Clown79]

What are your nutrient levels at?

 

What struggles are you experiencing?

[MrObscura]

Nutrients test between 16-24ppm no3 and 0.04-0.08ppm po4 consistently. 

 

Issues are sps will lose color then stn and/or rtn. And random lps and zoas will struggle either with tissue recession or melting away.

 

As documented in my thread there was no apparent reason for the issues so I sent in the icp as a last resort hoping it would point me in a direction. 

[Clown79]

How stable is alk? 

[MrObscura]

I aim for 8.4 on my hannah and since the struggling sps were introduced until the icp was sent out it tested between 8.3 and 8.7 with no more than a 0.2 deviation over 24 hours. Recently it's been reading 8.8-8.9, though the variations are likely the hannah itself since I havent dosed anything. The only time I dosr is when alk reads 8.3 and then its only 0.5ml of diluted bionic to raise it 0.1dkh back up to 8.4.

 

In other words alk is stable.

 

Though my hannah might test lower than my actual reading since the same water tested 8.7 on my hannah and the ATI ICP said my water was at 9.37dkh. So while it's possibly running a bit higher than I want it's been stable and that doesn't explain the issues. 

 

 

[mitten_reef]

Sorry to hear that icp test didn’t give any major clues.

Honestly, start buying $20ish frags from LFS (vs designer/name brand). And watch how the frags do in your tank before jumping in with “fancy” frags.  I got burned by an $80 torch frag, so I’m now trying two $30 torches, one of which is already dead 🤷🏻‍♂️.  So to me euphyllia may just be a no-go corals. 

[MrObscura]

Yea, that's the plan. At swaps there's been great deals so I end up dropping hundreds of dollars. But when they die that's just money and life wasted. 

 

The first batch I lost I thought I had a direct cause but with this recent batch... who knows? So going foward I'll get a couple of cheap sticks and wait to see them grow and thrive before adding more.

 

[mcarroll]

Hard to argue against going slow(er) or pacing yourself!  😉 

[banasophia]

So sorry you’re having these issues with your corals, it must be very frustrating. 
 

I really appreciate hearing about your ICP results as I keep thinking I should send my water in... there seems to be something in my tap water that was making it through my home distiller and my RODI filter in trace amounts such that the TDS was zero but the water was harming some of my corals and all of my shrimp/crabs. I have been too busy/lazy to send water samples in because I solved the problem by switching to using Arrowhead distilled water that gets delivered to my door on a monthly basis now, in 5 gallon jugs that they take back and reuse, but it would be interesting to find out more about what’s going on with my homemade water. 
 

I wonder if the issue could be the copper... if it’s in the water you are using, but not showing up in your tank sample, where is it going? could it be disappearing because it’s being taken up by something in your tank?

 

Also wanted to mention that I use Kent Tech I long acting iodide in my tank and it seems like a good option (less risky to dose than some of the other forms of iodine) you may want to look into if you’re thinking of adding iodine. 

[MrObscura]

Probably not going to bother dosing anything as it's not going to solve the issue and only add complexity. 

 

The copper would be an issue but since only some corals struggle I'm not sure it's that. I'm guessing it's not detectable in the tank because it's such a small amount...? I know Randy, a chemist with his own forum over ag reef2reef isn't particularly fond of testing ro water because its lacks context and a reading in ro doesn't necessarily translate to something that would effect your tank.

 

And with a 5 stage rodi unit producing 0tds water I dont know what else I could do.

[banasophia]

35 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

Probably not going to bother dosing anything as it's not going to solve the issue and only add complexity. 

 

The copper would be an issue but since only some corals struggle I'm not sure it's that. I'm guessing it's not detectable in the tank because it's such a small amount...? I know Randy, a chemist with his own forum over ag reef2reef isn't particularly fond of testing ro water because its lacks context and a reading in ro doesn't necessarily translate to something that would effect your tank.

 

And with a 5 stage rodi unit producing 0tds water I dont know what else I could do.

Hmmm... well I was thinking since the iodine is testing so low, with a much higher target that you listed maybe it could help, since it’s one of the main parameters that was off? The stuff I use is long acting so I just add it once/week.

 

As for the copper, I think there are a couple different types of media that can remove it if needed, including cuprisorb and polyfilter... well known youtuber Inappropriate Reefer just got his ICP test results back showing copper and zinc and I think he’s trying those methods, may be worth checking out his post about it... I think he also had a low iodine level 

 

[MrObscura]

Looking into things ive found that theres just no evidence that iodine actually does anything. 

[Clown79]

Rodi unit should remove the copper but if your water is treated with chloramines, rodi units have a hard time removing it with using regular carbon only, that could effect corals.

 

 

 

Sometimes I think it's really difficult and frustrating trying to figure out what's going on with corals.

 

I've had a few that just went down hill with no known reason while others were growing and looking awesome at the exact same time.

 

I had in my 10g a birdsnest and pocillopora that were growing and looking awesome then one day just started going white.

 

It's very frustrating 

[banasophia]

27 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Rodi unit should remove the copper but if your water is treated with chloramines, rodi units have a hard time removing it with using regular carbon only, that could effect corals.

 

 

 

Sometimes I think it's really difficult and frustrating trying to figure out what's going on with corals.

 

I've had a few that just went down hill with no known reason while others were growing and looking awesome at the exact same time.

 

I had in my 10g a birdsnest and pocillopora that were growing and looking awesome then one day just started going white.

 

It's very frustrating 

I think he’s saying the RODI water contains copper.

[MrObscura]

No chloramines in my water I've checked.

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, banasophia said:

I think he’s saying the RODI water contains copper.

That's very odd as it should be removed by the di 

[mcarroll]

Since as far as I know you lack any alternative hypothesis to test, I'd consider adding phosphate to lock it in closer to the top of the range you posted (or higher).  It's a sensible option, as PO4-deficit can certainly cause symptoms like you're seeing, and PO4 is currently borderline.  It's also cheap and easy to implement....more on that...

 

Dosing phosphates is not complex -- you're already testing for it, which is the hard part.  There's literally nothing to the actual dosing of it since there's no real chance of overdose.  And it's not going to be like alkalinity or something that you have to test and dose "forever". 

 

Following the instructions on the bottle is generally sufficient.  You might want to run an extra test or two about an hour after you dose just to see if what you dosed was immediately used up or not.  Testing before dosing and 1 hour after will give you the clearest picture of this.  You'll have some idea if there was "pent up demand" this way too.  Not a test that generally needs to be repeated after the first dose though since conditions change.

 

In fact, if you wanted to keep it uber-simple, dose one time (per label instructions) up to 0.20 ppm.  For the record, run the before-and-after tests mentioned.  Then return to your normal routine, and just pay attention to what phosphate levels do from that point on, along with any changes your corals go through.  One simple adjustment might be enough to do the trick.

 

 

[MrObscura]

You're honestly the first person I've ever seen suggest that po4 needs to be that high. 

 

Now I'm not a fan of unl or even low nutrients but Im not sure how a tank with detectable po4 could need to raise po4 intentionally because it could be deficient.