Kessil a80 + Nuvo10

[Juka]

I am wonderimg if anyone is currently using this combination. I am wondering if I made the wrong choice for my tank. I purchased the kessil because of its simple 2 knob design, and that it has no fan. I plan to have zoa,soft, and lps corals. I just feel bad that this light may not grow coral well on a nuvo 10. Also on my aquascape there is a shadow in the center. Will this give me any problems?

[billygoat]

I run this light on my 18 gallon aquarium and have no problems growing soft corals and zoanthids. I imagine it will probably work out just fine for the Nuvo 10. 😊

 

Don't worry about the shading either. A bit of shade is pretty much unavoidable no matter what kind of aquascape you end up building, and sometimes it's even nice to have as you can place lower-light specimens such as NPS corals down there later on.

[Juka]

Hey thanks man i really appreciate that. It has been on my mind.

 

[mcarroll]

On 10/17/2019 at 3:44 AM, Juka said:

I am wonderimg if anyone is currently using this combination. I am wondering if I made the wrong choice for my tank. I purchased the kessil because of its simple 2 knob design, and that it has no fan. I plan to have zoa,soft, and lps corals. I just feel bad that this light may not grow coral well on a nuvo 10. Also on my aquascape there is a shadow in the center. Will this give me any problems?

The trendiness of ideas is one of the least likable things about our hobby IMO.

 

This is a good example -- the idea that shadows are somehow harmful.  SHADOWS ARE NOT HARMFUL.  😊

 

That light is mounted a little too high, but is otherwise GREAT for that tank. 

 

See that smokey blue triangle of light over the tank?  The bottom of that triangle of light should "land" inside the tank, not over it by 3-4" as it appears to be in the photo.  You want ALL the light in the tank, not outside in the room on the walls around the tank.  The light isn't super-powerful, so wasting light isn't just an aesthetic concern.  You really want all the light in the tank.

 

The more light in the tank, the more light being reflected off the side-glass too, which directly cuts the effect of shadows.  (You may not see the difference because our eyes are terrible at distinguishing different intensity levels....but you could definitely measure the difference with a light meter.)

 

If you don't like the LOOK of the shadows, you'd want to go with an LED strip light vs a spotlight.  Shadows drop, but so does the dynamic look you get from a point-source light.

 

But your corals won't care either way, so don't do anything out of fear or because you feel bad!  👍

 

Something real to worry about is how are you gonna enliven that pile of dead rocks?  Not many newbs get that part right, buying dead rocks just because they're cheap or just because that's all they could find, so make sure you have/make a plan!  As it is now -- well-lit bare aragonite -- it'll be a great place to grow algae of one kind or another.

[MrObscura]

Lps and softies dont need much light at all to thrive. 

 

But if you decide to try some higher light corals down the road you'll need to upgrade.

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, MrObscura said:

Lps and softies dont need much light at all to thrive. 

 

But if you decide to try some higher light corals down the road you'll need to upgrade.

That tank is only 13" deep minus the sand bed.   You don't think the A80 can handle that?  Seems like it should be able to based on the numbers here:

 

(It should be mounted close as they show for the mixed reef setup.  Silly to mount a light like this higher....just a waste of intensity.   My 360X's are mounted like this just based on setting them up optimally, getting the light into the tank.)

[MrObscura]

Based on par numbers it seems like a rather weak light. At least for "high light" canals. like 60 par max. But I haven't looked much into it.

[mcarroll]

36 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

Based on par numbers it seems like a rather weak light. At least for "high light" canals. like 60 par max. But I haven't looked much into it.

What have you seen on this?  Link?  PAR info is apparently very rare on these so if possible I wanna see how it was measured.  👍

 

Historically speaking, most folks' expectations for what corals need for light seems pretty exaggerated. 

 

(If this is TL;DR, then at least check out some/all of the five links included and let me know what you think.  😉)

 

For example, there are no corals I know of that require high light levels...not in the hobby anyway. 

 

There are only corals that tolerate high light levels as far as I know. 

 

Photo-saturation, photo-inhibition and "quenching" happen under high light levels in most cases.

 

For another example, I kept a whole tank of SPS corals at around 10,000-14,000 lux.....very dim, around 30-40 watts, and that was measured at the water line over a 19" deep tank, corals growing from the sand as well as the rocks.  No idea what the corals were actually receiving, but it wasn't a lot.  😉

 

To me this makes sense....corals are not naturally photosynthetic, they are naturally deep-sea predators. 

 

They get their photosynthetic ability from dino's.

 

Dino's apparently got it from red algae, and aren't really very good at photosynthesis themselves -- they require fairly low levels of light. 

 

This is what coral light acclimation is all about....the corals have to build specific light-shielding for their dino's to remain happy.  It's an amazing setup, but far more sensitive and prone to over-lighting than we all seem to think. 

 

(Check out these articles: 

Is the coral-algae symbiosis really ‘mutually beneficial’ for the partners?

The in situ light microenvironment of corals 

Flicker Light Effects on Photosynthesis of Symbiotic Algae in the Reef- Building Coral Acropora digitifera (Cnidaria: Anthozoa: Scleractinia).  There's more under the "Light" tag.)

 

Clams seem to have higher requirements, but they are the oddballs....>30,000 lux at minimum is a number I've seen in the literature.

 

I also think typical PAR measurements underestimate the light from Kessils, which are designed to light not only from the top ("downwelling radiation"), but also from reflected light from the sides too ("scalar radiation"). 

Nobody uses them in the hobby, but "scalar PAR sensors" that measure light from 360 degrees would make the PAR comparison of lights a lot more interesting to me.

 

Here's a diagram I made that illustrates the side-lighting thing....and next to it, what happens if you mount too high and lose some side-light:

 

(Sorry that second image is so small....don't have the originals anymore, and the site they're posted on apparently shrunk them at some point.  Lame.)

 

Another good read:  Feature Article: Too Much Light! by Dana Riddle from 2004.  Also the sequel from 2007: Feature Article: How Much Light?! Analyses of Selected Shallow Water Invertebrates' Light Requirements

 

He had a MACNA presentation more recently that covered this as well.

[MrObscura]

I just googled it and saw some people's readings. It seems to max out at about 60 or 70 par at the surface. Which seems about right since the a160 delivers about double that. And owners in the threads I found suggest it's good for softies and lps but not sps. It's simply not a powerful light. 

 

While corals may not need the crazy high light originally thought, I wouldn't count on that light for acros.  I've read  Dana Riddle state that pretty much 250 par is enough for most corals. And there are tanks with acros thriving in the 150 range. But I wouldn't give them much less than that. Granted I'm a noob with only a little over a year in the hobby so... 

 

But this topic has gone off topic a bit since as of now op just plans to keep LPS and softies,  which pretty much any light will work for.

[Juka]

Yes it has gone a little off topic, however I am happy to take any advice at all 😄 

[mcarroll]

Right...all good!  😊

 

The assertion was made that there is such a thing as "high light corals" that would require an upgrade in lighting. 

 

This is common knowledge you can see lots of folks repeat (just check out the threads below), so I'm not trying to pin this on MrObscura or any such thing....we're just talking here.  🙂    

 

On 10/19/2019 at 8:14 AM, MrObscura said:

I just googled it and saw some people's readings. It seems to max out at about 60 or 70 par at the surface.

 

Would like the links you came up with (PM if you like) so I can see how they measured.  My google search didn't come up with anything.  But we'll use that number for the time being anyway.

 

From what we/science know about corals and their metabolism, low light isn't a problem for most corals.....even "high light"-adapted corals that are taken to a low-light setting do well.

 

Some of those links I posted explain why this is the case and give examples if you take a look through them.

 

Also, 70 PAR on this light, from your post, would probably be around 5,000 lux....which is approximately the light compensation point for most corals.  That is, where they're getting enough light for basic metabolism.

 

So to me it makes sense this would work on a nice, shallow tank where the corals are practically right up against the light.

 

SOME EXAMPLES

For what it's worth, @HighCurrent has/had a similar SPS system with A80's.....said SPS were doing fine with one unit, the second unit was added for aesthetic reasons (shadows). 

 

He even had some bleaching after adding the second unit and said he had to lower intensity on both units and go through light-acclimation. 

 

Looks like he may since have sold out tho....no posts in a while and I saw a for sale thread for the A80's.

 

There are several other threads with similar:

There are a few folks with this setup chiming in here positively:

@streamline.by.design apparently used four of them in a low hood to light a whole 75 Gallon (including SPS), which is gigantic!  Only one per foot on a 19" deep tank!

 

The only doubters I saw in those threads were folks/haters that had never even used the lights, talking all confidently about how it's "too weak" or "can't work" only on theory, without the benefit of experience.  Funny they hate on everything in these threads too....hate, hate, hate, even if they have to contradict themselves to do it.   LOL.

 

What I did NOT find (and what I'd like to see, if it exists...may have to search outside n-r.com) is a thread where someone tried the A80 on a correctly sized tank and it didn't work.  Still has to have enough detail to know if the light was really the culprit though vs all of the more likely/more common reasons that corals don't thrive or don't make it.

 

And as I mentioned in an earlier post, lights of about the same wattage (a little less actually) have worked for me on the low-light SPS tank I mentioned, which was also a 19" deep tank....around 26 watts covering 3' x 1' of tank surface.  (37 Gallon)   

 

For comparison in watts per square foot: 

My 37 Gallon: 8.7 watts/sq-ft   

@Juka's Nuvo 10:  15 watts/sq-ft

 

That's almost double the amount of watts as my old tank and it only has to "service" a 13" deep tank.

 

So PAR readings will be whatever they are, but stony corals seem to grow under these well enough, within the expected limits. 

 

(Links on those PAR tests, pls, pls, pls!  Google wasn't kind on my search.)

 

Besides all that why would Kessil say they do if they don't?  Doesn't do Kessil any good to make things up just to have their reputation trashed after the fact when their gear doesn't perform, so I doubt they'd do that. 

 

Unlike Kessil, the "haters" (threads above) have nothing to lose, can be expected to say anything with or without regard for the facts or the truth.  And indeed they do.  I'm afraid that newbs prolly take them seriously, but to me their posts are pretty comical.  😆

 

[MrObscura]

Not saying it's the case here, but manufacturers always use market speak to sell their  product often over promising what it can do. That's just marketing in any field.

 

Anyway, you actually posted one of the threads I found through google. It's from this very site. He said he got 70 par in the middle of the tank. I didnt find much googling, just that thread and a chart in google pics comparing numerous lights.

 

In the one sps thread above the tank seems to only have been up a few months before the op stopped updating. And the lights were rather low above the tank and the corals rather high in the tank. So we dont really know how it worked out long term.

 

I'm sure you can make just about anything work. And dont get me wrong I'm fully on bored with corals not needing a crazy amount of light but i think theres still a difference between just enough and thriving. 

 

I'm also going to be honest and say I dont think kessils are good value for what you get. Even more so than most stuff in the hobby. 

 

Now for what the op wants to do, if he's happy with it great. Itll do him well. But I wouldn't choose a a80 if I knew I'd be keeping sps. If simply because there are better options for the same cost or less that give you more for your money. Why experiment and hope it's enough when doing so is unnecessary? Unless your intentionally trying to see how little light you can get by with. Otherwise I  rather have too much light that I can tone down. 

 

Again op is good as far as he's concerned. I just know that plans change quick. Thats the only reason I even mentioned possible lighting needs going foward. I originally started with a few hundred dollar budget softie/Lps tank in mind. Then it became oh maybe just a 1 or 2 "easy sps." And here we are a year later with a full blown mixed reef and my 10 nano has more money put into it than some people's much larger tanks. Hell, unfortunately I've lost more money in corals than i originally budgeted for the whole tank. 

[streamline.by.design]

Yep, the 75 is a service tank and doing great for quite some time now. I had my concerns at first as well but they have done great.

 

I also fun these over a couple of our store frag displays. Only 12" deep of water but the corals love it. Of course your going to have some "light hungry" corals that will want more, but it is up to us to plan our equipment accordingly for the livestock depending on us to care for them.

[Oldfishwife]

On 10/17/2019 at 3:44 AM, Juka said:

I am wonderimg if anyone is currently using this combination. I am wondering if I made the wrong choice for my tank. I purchased the kessil because of its simple 2 knob design, and that it has no fan. I plan to have zoa,soft, and lps corals. I just feel bad that this light may not grow coral well on a nuvo 10. Also on my aquascape there is a shadow in the center. Will this give me any problems?

I’m running a Kessil A80 over my Nuevo 10. It’s pretty much perfect. I’m getting good growth from most things and I’m even trying a couple of SPS high up under the light. Lower your light as far as you can get it to keep it all in the tank. I run my 75% color and 100% intensity for about 6 hours per day just using the knobs. Every time I walk past in morning or evening I do a slight adjustment. My Duncan has 3 new heads and one of my Acans has 5 new polyps. Palys and Zoas growing like crazy.  GSP spreading and mushrooms loving life. I can’t see the point of buying a stronger light and running it at 50-70% when this little a80 is so efficient. 

[Stauffer696]

I'm going to be using 3 a80s over amr aqua 22g long..going to make a bracket behind the tank,to use the gooseneck, but not on the glass,just so I can get the light 5" from the surface, I'm in the process of making a arch out of rock,will be higher in the tank for sps..tank is 36"Lx12"Wx12"H..with 3 at 5" above water..I feel I shouldn't have a problem growing lesser demanding sps(monti,birdsnest,stylo)

[CRG]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:37 PM, mcarroll said:

Something real to worry about is how are you gonna enliven that pile of dead rocks?  Not many newbs get that part right, buying dead rocks just because they're cheap or just because that's all they could find, so make sure you have/make a plan!  As it is now -- well-lit bare aragonite -- it'll be a great place to grow algae of one kind or another.

What would you suggest here to the OP, as I have a similar situation in a newly established tank? 

[mcarroll]

I'd strongly encourage the use of live rock. 

 

If you just cannot obtain some live rock, then your next best bet is to find someone who has already set up a successful dead-rock tank that is similar to what you're trying to build and figure out how to do what they did.  That can be a tall order on it's own, depending on your circumstance and experience level and their willingness/ability to share what they did.

 

I think the jury is still out on the best way to proceed with dead rock...I can only suppose that's why nobody selling it seems to be providing a recipe.

 

Short of a recipe, there are some ideas or guidelines to keep in mind.  Especially...

 

In general when starting a tank, you have to go slow. 

 

With a dead rock tank, that's probably means even longer maturation times (vs live rock). 

 

Longer maturation times implies that the system will be in an unstable state longer (vs live rock), which carries implications for more than just tank maturation.  It will be more prone to algae and pest outbreaks during this time (vs live rock).

 

With any luck I will eventually be able to do some experiments on this front and give you a better answer...

[Ratvan]

@Jukahow is the tank looking now? Is it still running?