Should I rinse out my Reservoir, because of calcium buildup, and the toxicity of zooanths

[Seadragon]

On 9/20/2019 at 9:59 AM, FISHnChix said:

Yep like everyone says clean with vinegar and then rinse it out .. easy peesie.. 

 

Also I am with you . I want nothing to do with palytoxin.. i wont disagree with what everyone said when they said it's not that big of deal if you handle zoas and palys properly , but for me personally why take the risk?? 

 

Welcome to NR.. happy reefing!😎

 

I remember when I recently researched this topic online regarding palytoxins, zoanthids, and palythoas.  There seems to be a LOT of hobbyists that really think it's no big deal for the average beginner to purchase these toxic corals.

 

To me, the moment you say that the palytoxin can make me go BLIND PERMANENTLY if it gets into my eyes, or it can put my ENTIRE family into the hospital if I do something like simply washing a rock or scrubbing it or boiling it, now you're talking about some crazy #@%#.  No Thank You.  This is a HOBBY to me.  This is for FUN.  I don't want to be FORCED to wear Protective Eye Wear or Gloves all the time or worry about the dog dying after being exposed to the palytoxin or Any of those things.  I don't even want the CHANCE of going permanently blind or going to the hospital or getting Flu Like Symptoms or getting innocent bystanders hurt.

 

Some people love the pretty colors from these toxic corals.  I love not having to wear protective eye wear every time I fiddle around in my beautiful tanks.  To each their own.

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Seadragon
Updated on how dogs have died by palytoxin

[Tired]

Some palys squirt water when removed from the water, which is a problem if it gets in your eyes. And they can't aim. To prevent that, wear eye protection if you intend to take that rock out of the water (in the water is fine), or don't get those specific palys. Fiddling with the paly in the tank won't hurt you.

The water in the tank isn't toxic. If it were, the fish would all die. Your dog should be prevented from drinking saltwater anyway, and probably won't want to, but ingesting the water wouldn't kill it. 

You should wear gloves in your reef tank regardless of corals, because of the myriad of sharp and stinging things, and because there are bacteria present in just about every reef tank that could cause you harm if you cut yourself on a rock. That's also why you shouldn't scrub rocks with a steel brush in a way that also brushes your fingers, and why you should be careful when fragging any coral, because of the bacteria that will happily get into a cut. I suggest fragging with an exacto knife or similar instead of a loose razor blade.

You should probably also not boil rocks in general, because they can explode from the temperature shift, and will release unpleasant smells into the air. 

 

If you don't want these corals, that's fine. But if you don't cut yourself and then get some of the coral in the wound, you don't eat one, you don't remove a paly from the water while it's pointed at your face, and you don't boil them, they won't hurt you. They aren't constantly emitting poison into the water, or spraying poison gas, or waiting in a dark corner with a poisoned blade. It only takes a few very simple precautions to make them perfectly safe. Heck, you can touch them! You just don't want to be touching them with a cut on your fingers. As long as someone knows about the toxin (and that's very important, I'd like to see more LFS that have a warning somewhere), it really is no big deal. 

 

If these corals were really that dangerous, I rather suspect the people who culture and frag them on a regular basis would all be dead. It's a matter of common sense and basic precautions, most of which you should be taking anyway. 

[Seadragon]

38 minutes ago, Tired said:

Your dog should be prevented from drinking saltwater anyway, and probably won't want to, but ingesting the water wouldn't kill it.

 

Here's one example out of hundreds found on Google: "Meridian man blinded, dog killed after fishtank coral releases toxin

The father, Tony Arellano, is now blind in one eye, he and his daughter had to spend the night in the hospital and the family dog is now dead after it was exposed to the toxin."

Source: https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/meridian-man-blinded-dog-killed-after-fishtank-coral-releases-toxin/277-557670658

 

To recommend any coral with palytoxins to a beginner of this hobby is just downright wrong.  Corals with something this toxic and dangerous should only be handled by experienced hobbyists.

 

Just to add, as many of you hopefully know, palytoxin is considered the second most poisonous non-protein substance on Earth. The toxin is dangerous and being exposed to it can have potentially life-threatening consequences.

 

[Tired]

I don't know what happened to the daughter and dog, but these don't release a poisonous gas or anything. And, again- if the palys were poisoning the water, nobody could keep fish with them. So I wonder if that was something unrelated. If there had been enough toxin in the water to somehow get into the air, which I doubt it could anyway, it would have killed everything in the tank. We'd see lots of "don't get zoanthids, they'll kill your fish" threads.

 

There needs to be more of a warning, yes, but the fact is that these aren't able to bite. If someone knows about the toxin, it's easy enough to avoid. There just needs to be more knowledge given out about the toxicity- the man should have been told by the rock seller that there were poisonous corals on the rock. Then he would have worn gloves (hopefully), and would have been fine. 

[Seadragon]

5 minutes ago, Tired said:

I don't know what happened to the daughter and dog, but these don't release a poisonous gas or anything. And, again- if the palys were poisoning the water, nobody could keep fish with them. So I wonder if that was something unrelated. 

 

There needs to be more of a warning, yes, but the fact is that these aren't able to bite. If someone knows about the toxin, it's easy enough to avoid. There just needs to be more knowledge given out about the toxicity- the man should have been told by the rock seller that there were poisonous corals on the rock. Then he would have worn gloves (hopefully), and would have been fine. 

 

I think you hit it right on the nose.  As a beginner myself, BEFORE I learned about palytoxins, every LFS I know was happy to sell me any zoanthids or palythoas coral they had without even telling me of the dangers.  How many beginners in this world do you think really knew about palytoxins before they bought a coral that had it?  And I bet if they knew, they'd either not buy it or be a lot more careful handling it.

 

I personally think it should be mandatory for every seller of any coral that contains palytoxin to put a warning label on it explaining the dangers and what precautions NEED to be done when handling it.  Not every human being is going to understand what they're getting into when buying something.  That is why we have warning labels on cigarettes and similar things that can be hazardous to our health.  Corals with palytoxins should be no different.

 

I'd like to see: "WARNING: May cause permanent blindness, hospitalization, or even death if exposed to the palytoxin without protective eyewear, gloves, or gas mask if the toxin goes airborne due to boiling the rock that it is on."

[Tired]

That seems reasonable. I'd like to see a requirement that they be sold with a warning, and with a description of the proper precautions to take. Because the precautions are so simple, and they're perfectly safe if you're careful. I'm not afraid of my zoas. There really should be a mandatory warning. I'd like to see people who write care guides put a proper warning in, too- the most I see in a lot of these "how to grow zoas" articles is something like "some of these can be toxic". No, most of them are toxic, some of them very concerningly so. 

 

Seriously though- wear gloves in your aquarium anyway. 

[Seadragon]

7 minutes ago, Tired said:

That seems reasonable. I'd like to see a requirement that they be sold with a warning, and with a description of the proper precautions to take. Because the precautions are so simple, and they're perfectly safe if you're careful. I'm not afraid of my zoas. There really should be a mandatory warning. I'd like to see people who write care guides put a proper warning in, too- the most I see in a lot of these "how to grow zoas" articles is something like "some of these can be toxic". No, most of them are toxic, some of them very concerningly so. 

 

Seriously though- wear gloves in your aquarium anyway. 

 

Don't worry, I'm a germaphobe.  I wear 2 sets of gloves if I need to go deeper into the tank past my wrist.  A pair of gloves that goes up to my wrist, and a 2nd pair that goes up to my shoulders.  I then usually wash my hands with soap and water afterwards.

 

I read too many crazy stories of flesh-eating bacteria on the Internet that they got from their fish tank to not take precautions, lol.

 

Here's an example I just found now, lol... "Teenager May Lose Hand to Rare, Flesh-Eating Fish Tank Bacteria", Source: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/flesh-eating-fish-tank-bacteria-lead-teens-amputation/story?id=13837034

 

[Tired]

The other thing to consider is that these are the interesting stories. Basically everyone who keeps reef tanks has at least tried zoanthids, so that's thousands and thousands of people (there's an estimated 700,000 saltwater aquariums in the US and I'm sure a decent chunk of those are reef tanks) who have had zoanthids and not died. It's just that the handful of people who do have something bad happen are the interesting ones, and those are the stories that get passed around, not the thousands of "I had zoanthids and nothing happened" stories. Same with the flesh-eating bacteria. 

[Seadragon]

1 hour ago, Tired said:

The other thing to consider is that these are the interesting stories. Basically everyone who keeps reef tanks has at least tried zoanthids, so that's thousands and thousands of people (there's an estimated 700,000 saltwater aquariums in the US and I'm sure a decent chunk of those are reef tanks) who have had zoanthids and not died. It's just that the handful of people who do have something bad happen are the interesting ones, and those are the stories that get passed around, not the thousands of "I had zoanthids and nothing happened" stories. Same with the flesh-eating bacteria. 

I think it comes down to the lack of awareness for most beginner hobbyists on what palytoxins are and which corals have it and what safety precautions must be taken.

 

I hear of stories on forums all too often of someone getting sick from a palytoxin.  Sure, some major and serious incidents get reported on the news, but how many hundreds or thousands of cases were never reported.  Getting sick from a palytoxin is almost a rite of passage for some veteran hobbyists.

 

It would be like a bombmaker getting bitten by his own work, as seen in some Hollywood films.  It’s bound to happen, the slightest mistake or accident can give you just enough exposure to get you a little sick or even worse.

 

If you really want to compare, compare how many lottery players actually win the lottery vs how many hobbyists that own corals with palytoxins ever got exposure to it.  I bet the chances of getting an accidental exposure within their lifetime is akin to having a car accident.  It’s bound to happen sooner or later no matter how safe you drive.

 

In the end, you need to outweigh the risk vs reward.  If the pretty colors means more to you than a potential exposure to one of the most deadly toxins known to man, then more power to you.  But, there should still be a warning label on anything that dangerous to the general public and new consumers to the hobby.

[seabass]

I can certainly respect people making the decision not to keep palythoas due to safety concerns.  And these occasional threads are a great reminder, if not introduction, to the potential danger that these corals present.  Furthermore, I feel it would be smart for local stores and online vendors to take efforts to inform buyers about handling these popular, "beginner" corals (as some currently do).

 

However, I think that ginning up hysteria that keeping zoanthids is akin to playing Russian roulette with your (or your family's) lives is simply not warranted.  Most people keep some seriously dangerous products in their homes (the difference being warning labels).  We must handle these products properly in order to be safe around them.  Even certain household plants present dangers to children and animals in our homes.

 

The amount of palytoxin in various zoanthids and palythoas can vary greatly.  We should assume that palytoxin presents a real danger; but we should also realize that some are more dangerous than others.. Apple seeds are an extreme example of an amount of toxin being dangerous.  Apple seeds contain amygdalin, which when chewed and digested produces cyanide (although it might require eating about two cups of apple seeds to kill somebody).

 

I welcome these threads, which introduce, or remind us to handle these corals with care.  It's certainly possible to safely keep, and even frag, these hardy, colorful corals.  Proper handling and safety precautions are really the keys here.  And again, no shame in anybody choosing not to keep this family of corals.

[Seadragon]

5 hours ago, seabass said:

However, I think that ginning up hysteria that keeping zoanthids is akin to playing Russian roulette with your (or your family's) lives is simply not warranted.  Most people keep some seriously dangerous products in their homes (the difference being warning labels).  We must handle these products properly in order to be safe around them.  Even certain household plants present dangers to children and animals in our homes.

 

Isn't it funny that when we don't want to hear the facts about how something really is, we call it hysteria.  But, when innocent newcomers to the hobby buy some "beginner" corals without ever knowing what palytoxin is and that the corals they bought has it in it and people end up getting hurt, we brush it off and call them ignorant.  That a warning label was not needed, that they should've researched what they were getting into before they bought it.  That LFS rep doesn't mention a thing and we see it as not their job to do so due to lack of regulation in the industry.  Or even when a hobbyist forgets to wear gloves, was too much in a hurry and brushed against the wrong coral, or someone decides to boil a rock that doesn't appear to have anything lethal on it, we see it as not the norm and that that only happens once every 20 lifetimes.

 

We hear what we want to hear, doesn't matter how the real world actually works and who gets hurt in the end due to the lack of awareness out there.

[Tired]

But it's not the norm for people to get badly hurt by these. Otherwise they probably would have been banned. If you search for incidents online, you only see a handful, repeated over and over. And some of them are probably misidentified- a houseful of people being hurt without the coral ever having been disturbed or removed from the tank is more likely to be a gas leak. Some of the things that people report are probably bacterial infections that they got in a cut. It happens more than once in 20 lifetimes, but it's not an epidemic like you're making it out to be. It's a handful of unfortunate cases.

 

I don't think anybody here is saying there shouldn't be a warning attached. If the LFS rep didn't say anything, well, they should have. @ other people in this thread- would it be reasonable to have a law where anyone selling zoanthids and palythoas is obligated to tell anyone who buys them about the toxin, and the proper precautions? Enforcing that could be a little tricky, but it would be easy enough for retailers to do so, and it would pretty much mean nobody else got palytoxin'd. 

 

And you have to do a lot more than "brush against" a paly. You have to have a cut on your hand, first off, and it's going to take some friction to rub anything concerning into the wound. If you just stick your hand in there and touch it, nothing's going to happen. 

 

What I want to know is, what's the longevity of this stuff? How long does it last out of the water, or in the water for that matter, and how fast does it break down? Is carbon the most effective way of removing it from a tank with damaged corals? If I have a tub of water I've been fragging palys in, and can reasonably assume that water to be toxic, is there anything special I need to do to dispose of it? 

[seabass]

Like I said, I welcome these threads which bring awareness of the potential danger.  I've even advocated for warnings and handling information.  These warnings should at least be as prevalent as warnings for venomous fish.  I think it would be great if stores/vendors voluntarily supplied handling information which becomes the norm rather than the exception.

 

There really isn't anything wrong with being too safe.  However, I don't feel that generating unnecessary fear (like you could die if you accidentally brush up against a zoanthid) really helps either.

[Tired]

I also found out that there haven't been any cases of people dying from aerosolized palytoxin. Hospitalizations, yes, but nobody's "killed their whole family" by boiling a zoanthid rock. People have died from palytoxin, but the confirmed cases are of people who ate fish that was tainted with a palytoxin-producing algae, and as such ingested a lot of it. I think I read something about someone who died after they'd been walking on zoanthids in tidal pools with badly cut feet, which is a lovely way to pick up all sorts of things in the bargain. If you did that here in Texas you'd probably get vibrio. So we can add "don't walk on sharp things and then on zoanthids" to what not to do.

[Seadragon]

Some hobbyists have reported a bad reaction when touching corals containing the polytoxin.  Sure, it may not happen to everyone and may not happen every single time, but it does happen and has happened in the past.

 

There's also a lot of articles talking about if you rub your eyes after handling them, it can cause blindness, sometimes permanent.  One article that I was reading just now showed an image of the injured eye, not a pretty sight at all.  Just don't have that itch in your eye right after touching them and forget what you were just handling.  It's easy to say you would never do something until you accidentally do it because you were distracted at the time.

 

I'm also ALL FOR experienced hobbyists to own toxic corals.  I'm just against newbies buying something that people recommend as "beginner" corals, but leave out the disclaimer that it can put your family and yourself at risk (blindness, hospitalization) if you don't handle them with caution and wear protect eyewear and gloves at all times.

[mcarroll]

Do you think so?

[FISHnChix]

9 hours ago, Seadragon said:

In the end, you need to outweigh the risk vs reward.  If the pretty colors means more to you than a potential exposure to one of the most deadly toxins known to man, then more power to you

Lol this is exactly how I feel..  this is why I always post how I feel on these palytoxin threads..  you can be as safe as you want but in the end there is still a risk.. not something I want in my household...

 

maybe be we need to start a club....” REEFERS AGAINST eating zoas “ SAY NO TO PALYTOXIN 😜🤪😎

[banasophia]

9 hours ago, FISHnChix said:

Lol this is exactly how I feel..  this is why I always post how I feel on these palytoxin threads..  you can be as safe as you want but in the end there is still a risk.. not something I want in my household...

 

maybe be we need to start a club....” REEFERS AGAINST eating zoas “ SAY NO TO PALYTOXIN 😜🤪😎

Agree, and think the main thing is to be sure new hobbyists are informed so they can make their own educated decision. 

 

People (friends & LFS employees) actually pressured me really hard to stock zoas and palys in the beginning even when I said I wasn’t comfortable... it was a little bizarre to be honest, like they had a vested interest in what I stocked... I just stood strong to my decision that they weren’t for me in the beginning, and I have no regrets. 

[Xanthine]

The other day I went to a coral farm / LFS - was looking at some frags inside when the employee mentioned they had a lot more out of that type in the greenhouse.

Found just what I was looking for - but then the guy picked it up and saw some brown palys growing on the bottom.

He said I could try gluing over the polyps but it would be taking a risk because that stock tank is known to have especially toxic palys right now and suggested I not buy that frag! 

I really appreciated his honesty and advice. 

 

I agree that there should be some kind of warnings for certain corals and fish - and PPE for the employees - I know I never once was given gloves when working at my LFS years ago!

[Seadragon]

1 hour ago, banasophia said:

Agree, and think the main thing is to be sure new hobbyists are informed so they can make their own educated decision. 

 

People (friends & LFS employees) actually pressured me really hard to stock zoas and palys in the beginning even when I said I wasn’t comfortable... it was a little bizarre to be honest, like they had a vested interest in what I stocked... I just stood strong to my decision that they weren’t for me in the beginning, and I have no regrets. 

 

After reading way too many posts on this subject from various forums, you'd almost think the people pushing others to buy zoas and palys had a bunch of their own that they were trying to get rid of.  "Make sure you buy Zoas, Palys, and BITCOIN!  Because it's worth a lot of $$$, nothing dangerous about that!".  Hah.