I need to chase Ph. I know don't, but...

[MrObscura]

hear me out. Ive said it myself, dont chase Ph, but I may have a serious issue. 

 

Recently I switched from kalk, b-ionic to mantain 8.5dkh and it's been stable, been then suddenly the other day my Alk went up to 8.9 over 24 hours for no reason. I confirmed this with both my hannah and a red sea test. I figured, OK that's weird but I'll watch it a couple days and start dosing when it drops. 

 

But it didn't, it's been holding steady with zero dosing for 4 or 5 days. So, I started thinking, what would stop consumption? And the only thing I could think off in my situation was Ph. So, I tested it, and it's very low at 7.4. Which I confirmed with a meter and a chemical test. 

 

Now, 7.8? No worries, but at 7.4 not only will corals stop growing but they can start deteriorating.

 

I'm guessing its a result of high co2 in the house. I live in Chicago so for pretty much year round that means either the heats on or the airs on and windows are closed. 

 

I can't run a skimmer intake outside(wouldn't anyway since there always stuff in the air between neighbors and the village), can't dose kalk since Alk isn't dropping and is already higher than I want. 

 

This very low Ph may explain the issue I've had with a couple corals struggling with no other apperant reason. 

 

Any suggestions?

 

[JohnMzreef]

double check pH with another meter before you do anything crazy..

[MrObscura]

Well, both the meter and the api test read 7.4. And the meter read accurately when I got it and calibrated it. Which was not to long ago. 

[Tamberav]

Did you calibrate the pH meter right before testing? If not, that needs to be done first.

 

Don't think CO2 would run pH that low. More like die off or a mini cycle.

 

Start by testing ammonia and calibrate pH meter and retest.

 

42 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

Well, both the meter and the api test read 7.4. And the meter read accurately when I got it and calibrated it. Which was not to long ago. 

 

[MrObscura]

I don't have any cal fluid, but I can't imagine the ati test and the meter being wrong with both reading 7.4.

 

And there been no major die off or anything that would cause a mini cycle. I'm stumped. 

 

I'll confirm the reading again before taking action, but need a plan since the sudden lack of uptake suggests it is in fact that low. Hell it's the only reason I tested it. I originally tested occasionally to make sure kalk wasn't spiking Ph. It always read 8.2-8.4 but

I can't imagine a 1/2tsp per gallon was bumping Ph that much, so idk...

 

Its my luck, not long ago I was telling someone not to worry about Ph and randy the chemist over at reef2reef chimed in saying sometimes you have to because in certain cases it can drop below 7.5, even due to CO2. 

 

The whole things weird though because when I switched to 2 part I knew Ph would drop from where kalk had it so I tested it a few times, it was always between 7.8-8.1. but then suddenly Alk stopped being consumed and I needed to stop dosing. So did Ph drop because I haven't been dosing, or did Alk stop being used up because Ph dropped? Though nothing in the house has changed to cause a sudden spike in CO2. It's a chicken and the egg scenario and I'm stuck chasing my tail. As well as the pH. 

[Tamberav]

What's your plan to correct it?

 

 

[MrObscura]

No idea, since I can't dose anything because that will boost Alk which is at a stand still.

 

Open to suggestions. 

[Natereef]

How long has it been since u switched to kalk and bionic? Do you think that caused the problem? but you can do a couple steps to raise ph. If you have a skimmer you can connect the air intake to a co2 scrubber. You can also try getting more surface agitation, point your powerhead up to really stir the surface, maybe add an airstone too? You can also try kicking some people out of your house so you have less co2 🤣

[mitten_reef]

7 hours ago, MrObscura said:

No idea, since I can't dose anything because that will boost Alk which is at a stand still.

 

Open to suggestions. 

Sounds like you need to reintroduce some buffering capacities within the water itself.   Try doing water change with low-alk salt mix for the re-adjustment.  That should still keep most other parameters in balance, while lowering alk and possibly improving pH situation.     

 

as far as other additives - no ideas, but perhaps something with buffering capabilities?  Aquavitro 8.4 is one alk additive that is advertised to provide good buffering capability at the same time. It's technically the Alk part of their 2-part system - has less to do with pH target.      

[hotdrop]

You can wc down the alk, you can drop the salinity down a bit, you can run a skimmer and even a co2 scrubber , air stone or aim the power head at the surface. Just some ideas 

[JohnMzreef]

don't chase numbers if you tank looks ok, esp don't chase ph.   Water change is best advice.  What salt do you use?

[Tamberav]

I would probably use it as an excuse to set up a display fuge on reverse cycle 😉

 

BTW if you have increased feedings or dosing any sort of carbon, ect.. that may be a source. Basically increased bacteria from a food source. 

 

CO2 scrubber probably easiest but depending how much you have to use, it can be very costly. 

 

I have been curious about using a kalk stirrer on a nano 😮

 

 

Fill your room with houseplants until it is a greenhouse 

 

[jservedio]

2 hours ago, Tamberav said:

I have been curious about using a kalk stirrer on a nano 😮

I don't even bother with the stirrer and I've been using Kalk in my ATO to keep up with usage for around 3 years now after using 2-part for about 3 years. So much more convenient and way less prone to accidents or equipment failure. Even dumping 2 gallons of kalk water into my tank I don't an insane spike - it ends up coming out around 2dkh because salinity also drops which is bad, but not catastrophic if you are otherwise healthy and it's a one time deal.

 

I'm still pretty low on saturation, so I've got a decent amount of headroom before having to supplement with 2-part. I dose between .35 and .45dkh per day and it keeps me in the mid-8s. Plus, I never have to worry about my pH ever.

[FISHnChix]

5 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

Sounds like you need to reintroduce some buffering capacities within the water itself.   Try doing water change with low-alk salt mix for the re-adjustment.  That should still keep most other parameters in balance, while lowering alk and possibly improving pH situation.     

 

as far as other additives - no ideas, but perhaps something with buffering capabilities?  Aquavitro 8.4 is one alk additive that is advertised to provide good buffering capability at the same time. It's technically the Alk part of their 2-part system - has less to do with pH target.      

Ok I'm lost I thought the alkalinty was the buffering capacity and since he has higher alk levels that's good??? Now just have to raise the ph right. Dump some acid in there and your good, ya know vinegar or pool acid🤣 or something lmao.. jk jk obviously I'm kidding.. just wanted to post that i am following along too.. I'm curious to see what's going on here🤙

[timeconsumer]

53 minutes ago, FISHnChix said:

Ok I'm lost I thought the alkalinty was the buffering capacity and since he has higher alk levels that's good??? Now just have to raise the ph right. Dump some acid in there and your good, ya know vinegar or pool acid🤣 or something lmao.. jk jk obviously I'm kidding.. just wanted to post that i am following along too.. I'm curious to see what's going on here🤙

Carbonate alkalinity is a buffering mechanism. As pH decreases some  carbonate ions become bicarbonate ions which removes CO2 from the water. The issue is that we measure total alkalinity in our tanks which include other ions besides carbonate ions which are the primary ones we are concerned with, including borate or acetate. So depending on the salt used, or if OP was using vinegar to supersaturate kalk there could be other factors making alkalinity appear high when true carbonate alkalinity is low.

 

I agree I'd start with some moderate water changes. It's probably a CO2 issue but there could be something else so get some dilution going first.

[MrObscura]

I use rs blue bucket. My skimmer is a reef glass so I'm not sure if a CO2 scrubber would work. And as mentioned media could be costly. 

 

Its been about a couple months since switching from kalk. I first tried Tropic Marin all for reef for a few weeks and then switched to b ionic. For a while params were stable and Ph when I did test it while lower than when using kalk wasn't as low as it is now. Then suddenly Alk stopped being consumed so I tested Ph and here we are. 

 

I can only assume it's a CO2 issue since  as mentioned due to always running heat or air widows are always closed. 

 

 

 

 

[A.m.P]

Homemade PH buffer of 1/8 sodium carbonate to 7/8 bicarb will raise alk slightly, but also raise PH and help keep it stable. DKH drops naturally over time once the PH is corrected anyway, so maybe it would be worth doing waterchanges and buffering it up some until things swing back into place?

[FISHnChix]

1 hour ago, timeconsumer said:

get some dilution going first

Interesting stuff. I agree with this.. dilution is the solution.. and honestly since the op is dosing something new I'd stablize it with bigger wc then stop dosing and see what all and cal consumption is over a week and start fresh with dosing and see where I was at.. 

[MrObscura]

Well, looks like things may be improving. I left a couple windows open over night and through the day and with my lights only being on a couple hours at peak Ph is 7.9. 

 

Hopefully it'll stay up enough for alk to start dropping again and once I start dosing again it won't be an issue. Maybe I'll just have to open a window occasionally. 

[mitten_reef]

2 hours ago, FISHnChix said:

Ok I'm lost I thought the alkalinty was the buffering capacity and since he has higher alk levels that's good??? Now just have to raise the ph right. Dump some acid in there and your good, ya know vinegar or pool acid🤣 or something lmao.. jk jk obviously I'm kidding.. just wanted to post that i am following along too.. I'm curious to see what's going on here🤙

You’re right. Carbonate/bicarbonate ratio in itself is the buffering system. But I think the saturation of CO2 inside a tightly-closed homes sort of upset that balance, by continuing to add dissolved CO2 into the water.  

[FISHnChix]

16 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

Well, looks like things may be improving. I left a couple windows open over night and through the day and with my lights only being on a couple hours at peak Ph is 7.9. 

 

Hopefully it'll stay up enough for alk to start dropping again and once I start dosing again it won't be an issue. Maybe I'll just have to open a window occasionally. 

Out of curiosity what size home,  how many people,  do you cook with a lot of gas and do you have a cook vent/fan running while cooking?? Not to be nosy just curious how there can be so muc co2

[MrObscura]

It's a 2 story, 2000sqf or so. Only 2 people, but there is a lot of cooking. And it's not vented. 

 

And the house is well insulated and windows are never open. Though they may need to be. 

[FISHnChix]

2 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

 is a lot of cooking. And it's not vented. 

Well maybe this??🤔.. I dunno but we installed one of those fancy smansy commercial type stoves so proper ventilation has been on my mind lol😎

[SarlinDescent]

I would question your testers.  I live in a basement apartment and had major CO2 issues.  My PH low was 7.6.  Outdoor CO2 is roughly 400ppm.  Recommended house levels are 6-800.  My basement was 2000 at the low.  This level started giving me frequent headaches and is not good.  I aired out the house and dropped it to around 800 which helped a lot.  That took me to 7.8.  I also added kalk to the ato and an algae scrubber.  Now I sit around 8.1.  If you are looking to "chase" PH, I would go a more natural and consistent method like an algae reactor or kalk.

 

To note, at 7.6 I had very little growth.

[A.m.P]

30 minutes ago, SarlinDescent said:

I would question your testers.  I live in a basement apartment and had major CO2 issues.  My PH low was 7.6.  Outdoor CO2 is roughly 400ppm.  Recommended house levels are 6-800.  My basement was 2000 at the low.  This level started giving me frequent headaches and is not good.  I aired out the house and dropped it to around 800 which helped a lot.  That took me to 7.8.  I also added kalk to the ato and an algae scrubber.  Now I sit around 8.1.  If you are looking to "chase" PH, I would go a more natural and consistent method like an algae reactor or kalk.

 

To note, at 7.6 I had very little growth.

I was thinking something along the same lines, it doesn't seem super-likely that indoor C02 concentrations alone were to blame for such a low reading, but I don't think it's the test methods or materials, I think the OP likely had some serious imbalances in water chemistry which probably would have been solvable via water-changes and perhaps a willingness to dose buffers which might temporarily raise their alk a bit. Seems to me things are evening back out a bit now, but I'm not sure the window bit solved the problem, from my limited understanding it's likely that some live rock or perhaps some of their calcium-based livestock may have dissolved and helped to buffer the ALK of the tank. (Akin to the now mostly-liquefied limestone substrates and coastlines around the world which have helped buffer the oceans' PH from human-sourced acid-rain)
or maybe the window made that big a difference, no way of knowing for sure, I'd probably still do a water-change and perhaps dose a bit of sodium-carb and bicarb for a bit to be safe, or start working towards some more consistent and natural solutions like you mentioned. But that's also taking more steps than are likely necessary if the problem is going away I guess and my understanding, of course, isn't from experience either just from topical-scientific-literacy, nothing particularly deep or impressive lol so a bucket of fresh saltwater with anything I say /shrug