Water changes & phosphates?

[Lizbeth90]

My tank has been up and running well for a few months already. after fixing some of the issues i had months ago(too much gfo, temp) i thought i had it under control. i bought new frags maybe three months ago. my torches were opened beautifully as was everything else in my tank. i tested ammonia, nitrite, nitrates etc every week and the were all stable... still are. a few  weeks ago ive noticed my torch coral opening 1/2 way and my lobo is shrinking. everything else seems to be doing okay havent noticed them being bothered (so thats why i say "okay").  i checked everything and my parameters were okay except for my phosphates were at .36. i decided to add some gfo since well that was my only clue to what maybe was causing my frags to shrink in size. i added 1/2 of what the brs product recommends. at the end of the week i did my normal 4.5 g water change which dropped my phosphate down to .28. the following week i changed out my gfo because it was not getting lower than .28. after that week i did another wc and tested my phosphates and they were .13. i tested my parameters and everything was fine except my alk was at 6.8 and before it had been steady at 8.4. this last week i did my regualr wc and rechecked everything and my phos are at .09 using the same gfo as i didnt thnk i needed to change it yet and my alk is still at 6.8. what should i do? should i remove the gfo. if i remove it will  my phosphates begin to rise again? what could have caused my torches to close up in the first place? was i wrong to add gfo to my system again? 

 

[Clown79]

Gfo can alter alk. It's a downside to it.

 

Finding the cause of such high phos is important so you can correct it and prevent use of gfo.

 

If you don't find the cause, this will be a continuous battle.

 

Another issue is alk in general being low or having fluctuations.

 

You need to test your newly mixed sw for alk, your tank after waterchange, then every day for a week.

 

This shows you where you started(target number) and how much alk is being consumed every day in the tank.

 

You may need to dose to maintain target number

salt may mix low and need changing or dosing the newly mixed water

 

[Lizbeth90]

2 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Gfo can alter alk. It's a downside to it.

 

Finding the cause of such high phos is important so you can correct it and prevent use of gfo.

 

If you don't find the cause, this will be a continuous battle.

 

Another issue is alk in general being low or having fluctuations.

 

You need to test your newly mixed sw for alk, your tank after waterchange, then every day for a week.

 

This shows you where you started(target number) and how much alk is being consumed every day in the tank.

 

You may need to dose to maintain target number

salt may mix low and need changing or dosing the newly mixed water

 

what can cause phosphates to rise so quickly? i feed very little so far both fish and coral. actually now that i think about it i feed my coral reef roids and i think someone mention that is a very heavy food and to feed carefully. but then again i feed my corals roids like once every other week before im due a water change and  than i recently introduced some new frags, but other than that i cant think if anything else that makes phosphates shoot up. by all means if its the roids then i should look at something else?

[Clown79]

Foods do add phosphates but you feed every other week, it shouldn't be an issue unless you are using too much.

 

Filter media if not replaced often enough can aid in nutrient increase

 

Not siphoning back chambers in Aio tanks

 

Not vacuuming sand, not blasting rocks 

 

Your water source. What water are you using?

 

 

 

[seabass]

Normally, when you have high phosphate levels, your tank will also suffer from excessive algae growth.  And while corals can also react negatively to high phosphate levels, it is a nutrient that they will utilize for energy/growth.  So dropping it too low, or too quickly can also be a problem for coral health.

 

Like Clown mentioned, phosphate can be introduced via food, or by new water.  If not the main "cause" of high phosphate, food will always be a contributing factor.  You might consider feeding less.  Other sources are already in your tank (more on this later).

 

Phosguard will have less effect on alkalinity than GFO, because Phosguard doesn't bind alkalinity.  However, as the corals recover, new growth will inevitably cause alkalinity consumption, so you should still monitor it (along with calcium and magnesium).

 

Typical consumption of alkalinity will cause a similar consumption of calcium.  So you typically dose these in equal parts.  However, this might not be required when replacing alkalinity bound to GFO.  Sounds like 8.4 dKH has been your target for alkalinity.  Avoid raising it more than 1.4 dKH per day, as alkalinity swings can be brutal on coral.

 

Back to phosphate.  All organics contain phosphate.  When organics break down, they release their nutrients.  So exporting organics is important.  This can be done by using a protein skimmer, activated carbon, mechanical filtration, keeping the sand bed clean, and/or keeping the rocks clean.  Water changes can help export both inorganic and organic phosphate.

 

In addition, inorganic phosphate binds to calcium.  So your sand and rocks will have bound phosphate, and are now leaching it back into your water.  Assuming that the rocks weren't formed in a high phosphate environment, the bound phosphate should be on the surface.

 

Eventually, as the phosphate continues to leach from your rocks, there will be less phosphate available, and therefore less leaching.  I've gone so far as to replace my rocks to deal with leaching phosphate and algae (although I'm not necessarily recommending you do the same).

[Lizbeth90]

3 hours ago, seabass said:

Normally, when you have high phosphate levels, your tank will also suffer from excessive algae growth.  And while corals can also react negatively to high phosphate levels, it is a nutrient that they will utilize for energy/growth.  So dropping it too low, or too quickly can also be a problem for coral health.

 

Like Clown mentioned, phosphate can be introduced via food, or by new water.  If not the main "cause" of high phosphate, food will always be a contributing factor.  You might consider feeding less.  Other sources are already in your tank (more on this later).

 

Phosguard will have less effect on alkalinity than GFO, because Phosguard doesn't bind alkalinity.  However, as the corals recover, new growth will inevitably cause alkalinity consumption, so you should still monitor it (along with calcium and magnesium).

 

Typical consumption of alkalinity will cause a similar consumption of calcium.  So you typically dose these in equal parts.  However, this might not be required when replacing alkalinity bound to GFO.  Sounds like 8.4 dKH has been your target for alkalinity.  Avoid raising it more than 1.4 dKH per day, as alkalinity swings can be brutal on coral.

 

Back to phosphate.  All organics contain phosphate.  When organics break down, they release their nutrients.  So exporting organics is important.  This can be done by using a protein skimmer, activated carbon, mechanical filtration, keeping the sand bed clean, and/or keeping the rocks clean.  Water changes can help export both inorganic and organic phosphate.

 

In addition, inorganic phosphate binds to calcium.  So your sand and rocks will have bound phosphate, and are now leaching it back into your water.  Assuming that the rocks weren't formed in a high phosphate environment, the bound phosphate should be on the surface.

 

Eventually, as the phosphate continues to leach from your rocks, there will be less phosphate available, and therefore less leaching.  I've gone so far as to replace my rocks to deal with leaching phosphate and algae (although I'm not necessarily recommending you do the same).

Great info! thank you. the wierd part is i dont have  any hair algae on my rocks as in the past i use to get that all the time with my old rock. i just have a light green cast over my rocks im sure that some type of algae but it is not an nuisence. i have floss, chemi pure, purigen and recently added some gfo. blast my rocks and clean my sand, ive always had. i also run the eshopps nanno skimmer. i will def look into the food i feed and cleaning the back chambers more often

 

[Lizbeth90]

10 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Foods do add phosphates but you feed every other week, it shouldn't be an issue unless you are using too much.

 

Filter media if not replaced often enough can aid in nutrient increase

 

Not siphoning back chambers in Aio tanks

 

Not vacuuming sand, not blasting rocks 

 

Your water source. What water are you using?

 

 

 

i think i could be using too much food but i will def look into that more. also i have to start cleaning more often my back chambers. i blast my rocks and clean my sand every wc. i am using ro/di water and fritz salt. i will have to test my new water just to make sure its not that adding phosphates

[seabass]

52 minutes ago, Lizbeth90 said:

i have floss, chemi pure, purigen and recently added some gfo.

ChemiPure Elite has some GFO, but it would get exhausted very quickly in that environment.  I'm not much of a ChemiPure fan as it doesn't last as long as they advertise.  I feel they you can do better with activated carbon and Phosguard (if needed).  At least you can control when to replace each component.

 

So when you have used up the media that you already purchased, I would consider switching to a good activated carbon like Seachem Matrix Carbon or BRS ROX 0.8.  In fact, you can mix Seachem's Matrix Carbon and their Phosguard in the same media bag (in any ratio that your situation requires).  I suggest using less but changing it out more frequently.  In addition, you can continue Purigen if you wish.

[Clown79]

Using phosguard and carbon will get better results than chemipure.

 

Unfortunately, chemipure does not last as long as they claim it does.

 

Do you make your own rodi pr do you buy it?

[Lizbeth90]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

Using phosguard and carbon will get better results than chemipure.

 

Unfortunately, chemipure does not last as long as they claim it does.

 

Do you make your own rodi pr do you buy it?

i make my own. tds meter still reads at 0

[Lizbeth90]

i tested my new water today and my alk was at 7.5. this is what ive been doing someone correct me if i am doing it wrong. as my bucket is filling up with ro/di water i dump in my salt all together. i know that a little less than 2 cups makes my salinty at 1.025. as the water rises i then add a pump to mix everything. maybe an hour after when i cant see the salt spectacles ill test the salinity to make sure. usually is, so i proceed to heat my water after-overnight until the next day mid afternoon ill do my water change

[seabass]

You should fill your bucket, then add salt.  The pH can get wacky and precipitation can occur if there isn't enough water in your mixing container.

 

Although, 7.5 dKH isn't outside the range of acceptable parameters.  What level of alkalinity is your mix supposed to be?

[Lizbeth90]

 

7 hours ago, seabass said:

You should fill your bucket, then add salt.  The pH can get wacky and precipitation can occur if there isn't enough water in your mixing container.

 

Although, 7.5 dKH isn't outside the range of acceptable parameters.  What level of alkalinity is your mix supposed to be?

It says 8-9 @ 1.025

[seabass]

Precipitation could explain the difference.  Try mixing another batch, but add all of the water prior to adding any salt.  Add the salt a little at a time, and mix for as long as the manufacturer recommends.  Then try testing again.

 

If you still get low alkalinity results, the mix might have settled during shipping.  Sometimes an element isn't evenly distributed throughout the mix.  Rolling the bucket back and forth on the ground can sometimes redistribute the elements in the mix.  Note that if you've been using a mix that has settled, an element that has been low, might become high as you get down to the bottom of the bucket.

 

Also, humidity can cause precipitation.  If you've left the lid off the salt mix, it can become hard (due to the moisture in the air).  This can also affect your results.

 

Finally, sometimes you just get a bad batch of salt, which is low or high in some element.  It's not all that common, but it does happen.

[Lizbeth90]

28 minutes ago, seabass said:

Precipitation could explain the difference.  Try mixing another batch, but add all of the water prior to adding any salt.  Add the salt a little at a time, and mix for as long as the manufacturer recommends.  Then try testing again.

 

If you still get low alkalinity results, the mix might have settled during shipping.  Sometimes an element isn't evenly distributed throughout the mix.  Rolling the bucket back and forth on the ground can sometimes redistribute the elements in the mix.  Note that if you've been using a mix that has settled, an element that has been low, might become high as you get down to the bottom of the bucket.

 

Also, humidity can cause precipitation.  If you've left the lid off the salt mix, it can become hard (due to the moisture in the air).  This can also affect your results.

 

Finally, sometimes you just get a bad batch of salt, which is low or high in some element.  It's not all that common, but it does happen.

thank you for this advice! Lastly any advice on nitrates? i keep nirates at  less than 5ppm? someone in a different post mention that my nitrates might be low causing my coral to "starve" and close up a bit. 

[seabass]

Most coral would be fine with nitrate that is still detectable but still slightly less than 5 ppm.  It's true that corals tend to do better with detectable nitrate and phosphate levels (especially soft corals).  However, you don't want levels to get too high either.

 

The coral could just be reacting to the high phosphate level, changing phosphate level, low alkalinity levels, and alkalinity swings.  Any or all of these factors are possible contributing factors.  Specifically, what type of coral are you seeing problems with?

[seabass]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:30 PM, Lizbeth90 said:

ive noticed my torch coral opening 1/2 way and my lobo is shrinking. everything else seems to be doing okay

Oh, I see.  They are LPS corals.  Do you feed these once a week?  Alkalinity swings can also really affect them.  I doubt that nitrate is playing much of a role.

[Clown79]

Things that cause issues with lps shrinkage/not opening

 

Too much flow

Too much light

 

Too little nutrients(under 2ppm nitrate)

Rapidly dropping phos

 

Fluctuations in alk

 

 

As your corals were having issues prior to the phos drop, your nitrates are fine.

 

I'd suspect fluctuations in alk being the cause unless the corals are in too much flow.

 

Lobo's like low flow and low/moderate light. These are definitely bottom dwellers and prefer not to be up against rock as the flesh rubbing against liverock can easily tear them. 

 

Torch are definitely moderate flow, too much flow can cause euphyllia to easily tear.

 

As for the phos, it's hard to say. Over feeding can do it, your water source isn't the issue. 

 

If you only have lps, I'd feed them some fish pellets or frozen instead of reef roids. Reef roids are suited to sps and filter feeders.

 

I'd feed 1 time a week if you have fish just before a waterchange so any waste is removed before it breaks down.

 

 

For the back chambers, try scrubbing them with a baby bottle brush and siphoning them out.

 

I like to do mine every other week. I focus on the media basket chamber and second one because those seem to get full of detritus. My chamber with the pumps seem to not get very dirty.

 

Do you use filter floss? If so how often is it changed?

Do you rinse your media bags during your waterchange ro remove any detritus on them?

 

Have you cleaned your pump?

 

 

 

 

[Lizbeth90]

9 hours ago, seabass said:

Most coral would be fine with nitrate that is still detectable but still slightly less than 5 ppm.  It's true that corals tend to do better with detectable nitrate and phosphate levels (especially soft corals).  However, you don't want levels to get too high either.

 

The coral could just be reacting to the high phosphate level, changing phosphate level, low alkalinity levels, and alkalinity swings.  Any or all of these factors are possible contributing factors.  Specifically, what type of coral are you seeing problems with?

mainly one of my purple torches, my elegance and a lobo that i can really see the difference

[Lizbeth90]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Things that cause issues with lps shrinkage/not opening

 

Too much flow

Too much light

 

Too little nutrients(under 2ppm nitrate)

Rapidly dropping phos

 

Fluctuations in alk

 

 

As your corals were having issues prior to the phos drop, your nitrates are fine.

 

I'd suspect fluctuations in alk being the cause unless the corals are in too much flow.

 

Lobo's like low flow and low/moderate light. These are definitely bottom dwellers and prefer not to be up against rock as the flesh rubbing against liverock can easily tear them. 

 

Torch are definitely moderate flow, too much flow can cause euphyllia to easily tear.

 

As for the phos, it's hard to say. Over feeding can do it, your water source isn't the issue. 

 

If you only have lps, I'd feed them some fish pellets or frozen instead of reef roids. Reef roids are suited to sps and filter feeders.

 

I'd feed 1 time a week if you have fish just before a waterchange so any waste is removed before it breaks down.

 

 

For the back chambers, try scrubbing them with a baby bottle brush and siphoning them out.

 

I like to do mine every other week. I focus on the media basket chamber and second one because those seem to get full of detritus. My chamber with the pumps seem to not get very dirty.

 

Do you use filter floss? If so how often is it changed?

Do you rinse your media bags during your waterchange ro remove any detritus on them?

 

Have you cleaned your pump?

 

 

 

 

havent cleaned my pump since i started, to be honest i probably cleaned the back maybe twice. i will def take inconsideration everyones advice and try to fix my alk and phospates slowly and give my corals time to heal.  how long does it take for corals to get back to normal once everything is stable ?

[seabass]

It might take a couple of weeks to notice a difference.  Depending on their condition, it could be a couple of months for them to recover fully.  Don't add anything else until things are stable and everything is looking good.

[Lizbeth90]

today i decided to clean out the back chambers of my AIO tank and noticed my lights were not blue but instead were all white. could that have been stressing my corals as well. im not sure what happened to the kessil lights. i had them set to 30%.