ammonia levels won't go down during cycling with dry rocks

[3s1k]

Patience is important in this hobby and cycling your tank is test one. Once I seen a spike in Ammonia I would test every 2 or 3 days and keep a log until the cycle was done.

[Alesici]

As it seems to me that someone asked for some picture.....

[Alesici]

  Hi there!

 

I'm taking this hobby so patiently that I make tests once per week . Also because  this cycling is taking so long time! In addition, I guess that making more tests doesn't make the course of nature faster.
 

Here the results of the tests of this week.

 

 Ammonia 1.5

Nitrites  0.25

Nitrates 10

 

 By comparing these results with all the previous  ones (see post dated march 5), I can say that nitrites is getting slowly higher .

 

On the first days of the past week I added a pinch of flakes fish food, and I stopped to add pure ammonia.

 

 

Furthermore, it was my  intention to  clean the in-take and out-take pipes of the external filter since they are a  little dirty, but then I though to leave everything as  is with the hope that the "leave-everything-as-is" approach could help the cycling process.  

 

 

I will keep you updated.
   

[Alesici]

As I promised, here the weekly tests update:

 

Ammonia: 1.0/1.5

Nitrites: 0.5

nitrates 10

Phosphates: 3

 

This time I tested also for PO4, just for curiosity. As you can see they are at 3. In your opinion, is this value too high? Is  a water change needed to lower it?

Since I added some pinch of flakes of fish food during past two weeks, I think this could be the cause for a such high value of PO4, as I read from section "Phosphate Sources in Reef Aquaria" in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php.

 

So I think  I should stop to add flake food and add some piece of shrimp instead, to feed bacteria.

 

[Alesici]

Below the update from the this Sunday tests:

 

Ammonia: 1.0

Nitrites: 0.5

Nitrates: 15

PO4: slighter higher then 3

So cycling is going on, although quite slowly.  It seems to me that ammonia goes down 0.25 points per week.

 

Since PO4 is becoming higher, here my questions:

 

Is there the risk that rocks  are absorbing phosphorous, to released PO4 into the water  once the cycling process is completed?

 

Thank you in advance for your advice.

[Weetabix7]

I have a couple of questions. 

I read the first couple of pages on the Rock Reincarnation thread that you linked. Did you follow those instructions exactly?

It does seem as if your cycle is progressing in the timeframe that that link said it would. 

 

When you described the sand you used, you called it "quartz sand". Where did you get this sand from? 

I know it was dry and not live, but was it made for Reef Tanks or was it "play sand"?

I know that I have heard of others who used "play sand" having problems with it and it may have been phosphate related issues. 

 

If you are concerned about the rocks absorbing some of the phosphates that you see rising, it seems logical to me to use phosphate reducting media in a HOB filter to reduce those. That method shouldn't affect the cycle, I wouldn't think. 

You don't want to do a Water Change at this point since it would affect the cycle, and you really don't want it going any slower than it already is. 

 

Hopefully a few others can come along and offer advice on the phosphate related issue.

[dandelion]

Phosphate of 3 is really high. Did you follow the reincarnation process to a T?

 

add some phosguard into your filter and hopefully absorb the phosphate. Double dip your rocks in fresh saltwater before placekng them into your tank.

[Alesici]

First of all thank you all for  your fast replies. Please find below my answers:

for Weetabix7:
 

I followed the instruction for rock  reincarnation  exactly.

 

> It does seem as if your cycle is progressing in the timeframe that that link said it would. 

 

This is the only thing which makes me not worry. For the moment :-)

 

Your question about sand, made me thinking. I bought that sand for my fresh water tank. On the bag there is written “quartzite  sand” and looks like “play sand” , indeed.  
Just few minutes ago, after you question,  I found this thread 

 

which could explain the results of my tests, and put my cycling on a wrong path! 

I have a bag of the sand showed in the pictures below. It was in the same reef tank where the rocks come from.

It has been very  well rinsed and cleaned, so it is no live any more, but perhaps I may I use it.

 

>You don't want to do a Water Change at this point since it would affect the cycle, and you really don't want it > going any slower than it already is. 

 

I have no problem in doing a water change (tank is just 5 gallons) if it can put me on a right path.

 
for dandelion:

thank you very much for your  very good suggestion. I will do it for

 

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

 

I'm thinking the following plan in order to recover the situation

 

1. remove the play sand and replace it with the sand showed in the pictures. (I can also leave bare the bottom)

2. make a 100% water change

2. keep values in check

 

What's your opinion?

 

[Weetabix7]

Personally, I would completely replace the sand as mentioned above but not do a Water Change, and I would instead use phosphate reducing media. 

If you do a WC, I would do no more than 50%. 

Right now you are trying to build adequate colonies of nitrifying bacteria in the rock. The food source for those colonies is the ammonia & nitrite that are in the water. 

If you remove all of that water, you remove the food source and some of the bacteria will die back. 

This will prolong your cycle. 

 

If you don't want to use phosphate reducing media, you could instead add some cheap Macroalgae to consume the phosphate. However, if you do that, you will need to have light over the tank and you will run the risk of a pest algae outbreak. 

[Alesici]

I will follow your suggestions by immediately replacing the sand and 50% WC. The only problem is with  phosphate reducing media, as in my town there is just  fresh water  LFS 's.

 Quite strange, isnt'it?  This put me in a more precarious path.

 

I  have to buy on-line  any stuff for reef tank (in fact, this was what I made to set up the tank) and this take some day, of course. 

 

I will keep you updated. Thank you once more for your so valuable tips.

[Alesici]

I just replaced the play sand with the reef sand and made a 50-60% WC. I checked for ammonia and phosphates with the following results:

 

Ammonia:  0.25

 

Po4: slighty more then 1 but definitively less then 3

 

Other then keep checking levels, have I to do something in particular, i.e. add some  Ammonia chloride to put ammonia  level at 1 ppm?

[Weetabix7]

Adding ammonia to get level to 1 probably wouldn't be a bad idea, just to keep the colonies of nitrifying bacteria growing.

[Alesici]

just done, thank you!

 

I'm going to do  next tests in few days.

[Alesici]

A brief summary of the last changes.

Last sunday after the weekly test,  I made a WC  and replaced the silica sand with a reef sand, as suggested by Weetabix7. Then I added a couple of drops of Ammonia chloride to get Ammonia at 1.25.  I didn't made a PO4 test  after these changes, since I supposed that PO4 should  be decreased with respect to the previous value of 3.

Since I wanted understand where PO4 come from, during the past week  I made an "experiment". In a bowl I put just half inch of new silica sand and new salt water. I stirred the sand twice a  day. This morning I tested for PO4 resulting 0 ppm. I know that theis experiment is not very rigorous, but I feel I can say that Phosphates do not come from the sand I used before.

Here the results from the tank of today:

Ammonia: 1.5

Nitrites: 0.25

Nitrates: 7.5

PO4:  3

I see that Ammnonia got higher and PO4 come back at 3. I have the following conjecture for  the origin of phosphates:

1. they come from the flake fish food I put in the tank in past weeks to make cycling the tank

2. although the rock have been reincarnated, they are still release phosphates

To cross out any of the above options, I added a good pinch of flake food into the bowl. Next Sunday I will  check for phosphates.

 

In addition, and since, I WANT understand the results of the tests, I made another 40% WC and  then tested the water:

 

Ammonia: 0.25

Nitrites: 0.1

Nitrates: almost zero

PO4:  1

 

I want to leave the tank as it is now with no addition during the next days. I'm also not planning to use any phosphate reducing media, since I first want to understand the cause for the  high value of PO4.

[Weetabix7]

I like the way you are approaching this, and that you are insisting on understanding what is happening, even if it takes longer and is less convenient. 

 

It's possible that some phosphate is entering because of the fish food. 

It shouldn't be entering because of the rock, especially if you followed those guidelines exactly. 

I haven't tried that method myself, but I remember reading about it a few years ago and I read several pages into the thread you linked. 

 

I suppose time will tell. 

Keep doing what you're doing, keep questioning and testing and posting your results. This way we can all learn with you. 

[Alesici]

Thank for your support, but I do not hide I feel pretty discouraged and tempted to keep the tank down and come to fresh water hobby, which   I found so easy if compared with salt water.  At this point I'm  really  wating for the results from the "Bowl experiment" .

 

I’m keeping doing what I’m doing just with the hope it can be of some help for others newbie  nano reefers. And also since it costs me almost no money .

[Weetabix7]

Ok, so what would encourage you, what would turn things around for you?

What one thing, if it changed, would completely turn things around for you and cause you to start enjoying this?

[Alesici]

I will be happy enough if I could understand the reason for the results of my tests. I'm keeping doing the "experiments" for this goal, indeed. And I will keep all of you updated, of course!

 

 

[Alesici]

Hi there!

 

Below you find the results of my weekly tests.  Being a newbie, they sound very interesting to me, but for sure some of you have an explanation.

 

Tests from the "Bowl experiment":

 

Ammonia: 1.5

Phosphates: 0 ( yes, absolutely 0!!)

 

 

Tests from the tank:

 

Ammonia: 0.25

Phosphates: 2 (yes, absolutely still at 2!!)

So, I feel to say the tank is almost finishing the cycling process, but my rocks are releasing  a huge quantity of phosphates, which makes them unusable.

Finally I feel safe as I  at least have  understood what was going wrong with my tank.

I recall, that I got that rocks from a friend of mine who pulled his tank apart few days before I got them from his garage. He had those rock in his tank for about  fifteen years.  Never I have seen his tank, but I strongly believe that his conducted  the tank wain a very scruffy way.

But the most important conclusion of all this story is that the rock reincarnation process (which I carried out by following word-after-word the instructions), didn't remove all phosphates absorbed by the rocks.

 

I hope this could be of some help.

 

[Weetabix7]

Interesting. 

It looks like the phosphates in your tank actually went up, since the last result you posted was 1. 

You said you weren't going to add anything else to the tank for a week and I'm assuming that included fish food flakes as well, so it looks as if it would almost have to be coming from the rock. 

How frustrating that the reincarnation process didn't get rid off all phosphates, as it should have. 

 

Just to absolutely certain, the water itself can't be a source for phospate, can't it? Did you say if you used RO/DI water to mix the fresh SW?

 

What are your plans now?

[Alesici]

 

Weetabix7 thank you for your support.

 

I didn't add absolutely anything in the tank from the moment of the last week tests: no any organic matter, no pure ammonia. Nothing. Or to be more precise, just RO water to supply the evaporation.

 I used RO water (it's just RO, not DI) to mix the fresh SW in both the tank and the bowl. I also tested phosphates in RO water before mixing resulting 0.

 

 

Today, after tests I added some zeolite powder to see if it can have some phosphate reducing effect, but it was just for fun.

However, I cannot definitively say that the rock reincarnation process is not able to get rid off phosphates in general, but for sure it didn't work  with my rocks. It surely depended on them rather the process itself.

About my future plans, for sure I put my tank down. Then, I probably  buy some live rock and start again my relationship with nano reef hobby.

 

At the moment, I give my best t(h)anks to all of you.

[Weetabix7]

We're happy to help. 

 

I look forward to seeing what you do in a tank with different, healthier live rock.

[dandelion]

Thank you for doing the experiment! At least now we have 1 report that play sand does not leach phosphate.

 

Yea if I were you I would order new dry rocks. BRS has some pretty decent ones for cheap. They have free shipping now too may want to look into that.

[Alesici]

Dandelion thank you for your support, but my sand was not "play sand" but silicate white sand  for aquarium (perhaps fresh water rather then reef tank).

 

Thank you also to suggesting BRS, but I live in Italy. In any case, if I setup a  reef tank again (I'm still deciding and week end is not good to take decision so important!  ), I'm going to  start with (possibly good) live rocks.

 

After my last results, I surfed  on the web to search if someone had the some  phosphates problems after reincarnation rock process.

 

I found this quite old discussion:

 

http://www.marsh-reef.org/marine-and-reef-general-discussion/37822-how-do-i-acid-wash-rock.html    

 

where in #1 opens with:

 

"But I've read occasional references to "old live rock" that's been in tanks for several years - apparently they may leach phosphates into the water. This is part of the "old tank syndrome" story. (the other part is the aging sand). "

 

while in #5 is claimed :

 

"Bleach helps sterilize the rock, but acid will actually take off a layer of rock, helps with old rock that may have absorbed phosphates, keep them from releasing it back into the aquarium. Also works with rocks that have been in copper. "

 

 

As I already wrote,  I don't say  that the rock reincarnation process is not able to get rid off phosphates in general, but just it didn't work  with my rocks, which actually were in  my friend's tank for fifteen years.

 

Thus, I think it could be nice to open a thread on this forum to report my "experiment", just to give my two cents with the hope that it could be useful for some other.

 

[Weetabix7]

Yes, it could certainly start some interesting discussion.