How many Pod Cultures for Mandarin?

[bob115]

I'd like to add a mandarin to my 34 gallon tank in the future and culture pods to make sure the lives. Approximately how many 2L bottle cultures would a mandarin consume in a week? My initial thoughts are 2 cultures and alternating weekly which one is harvested from.

[RIP Sebastian]

Train it to eat frozen.

[bob115]

Train it to eat frozen.

 

That would be ideal, but that isn't always possible before a fish starves.

[burtbollinger]

In a 34, I'd really recommend against unless you have deep pockets and enjoy dark clouds over your reefing life.

You can do what you want, but it could be that you spend a ton of time and money without positive results. I know a guy who dropped $600 for pods in 2 months before things started clicking.

 

just a warning that you can end up like I did, focusing way too much attention and effort on getting him to eat...and dumping in a ton of food that ends up messing up your tank. It was just not worth it. the beautiful reef you've created takes a back seat to the needs of a single fish.

The period when I had a Ora (supposedly pellet eating) mandarin before I returned him was not an enjoyable one, and one of the biggest single mistakes I ever made in the hobby...more food/nutrients, loss of full tank focus caused a chain reaction that took months to recover from. You think it won't happen to you, until you/re faced with a cute animal starving to death...then all bets are off and you will overfeed to the point where your small tank suffers...then you have to tear the tank apart to fish him out and return him to a LFS.

Your vision of what a Mandarin could be vs. what it will be...dramatically different. Don't do it.

[FiveGallonSea]

I too had a dream of owning a mandarin. I then purchased one that was trained to eat mysis and he does. I got to tell you that burtbollinger is absolutely right. That one fish has become the complete focus of my tank. Having to feed mysis every day has caused a high nutrient issue in my tank. I remember the days of feeding a bit of simple pellets for my clown, sexy shrimp, and crabs. Now everything has turned upside down. As a result of this fish I now have-

 

Nutrient issues that turned into algae issues

More water changes

More filter floss changes

Lighting issues because he's super panicky when the lights turn off at night

More time feeding- no more dropping in pellets. Now it's thawing and target feeding mysis from a baster every day. Do you have someone that will have the patience and ability to do that if you ever go away for a few days?

 

My tank went from being a joy to making me a slave to it because of this 1 beautiful fish. I love my mandarin, but I would have never gotten him to begin with if I had any idea what would happen.

 

Just not worth it.

 

And about the pods- they were crawling around every inch of my tank and he decimated them in a week. You'd spend your whole time making sure the pod population is up if you got one that wasn't eating mysis.

[Muraki]

I had concentrated on training a mandarin to eat frozen in my current setup. I fed him live freshly hatch brine shrimp mixed with frozen foods. Took 3-4 weeks of heavy feedings to get mine converted to frozen mysis, and another 3-4 weeks to get him onto Reef Frenzy.

 

From my experience, burtbollinger is 100% correct. Luckily I had a refugium that could take up all the nutrients I dumped into my tank. Yet I still began to get GHA in my sump and light fuzz of other algae on my live rock in my display and very light cyano on the sand bed. If I had a usual setup and had my bad habits of little to no water changes, my tank would be disgusting!

 

If you insist on a Mandarin, Training on frozen in a smaller system relieves one of stress from culturing pods and the extra space required. BUT if I were to ever do this again, I would train a mandarin in a separate system that I wouldn't have to worry about algae problems in.

[BulkRate]

Sadly, I agree with Burtbolinger and Fivegallonsea... unless you are able to train your mandarin onto pellets/prepared foods (and even then you'll STILL end up target feeding the little guy or gal) it's all to easy for their care to suck the joy out of the hobby.

 

My ruby red was the easiest mandarin I've every kept, and I still experience a twinge on how much time & effort it took out of my total reefing time.

[Clown79]

I'd love a mandarin but other's experiences, like burts has pretty much solidified my belief that they should be kept in the ocean or very large systems.

 

Everyone has said the same thing. Even if trained on frozen, the amount of food they require to survive not only breaks the bank but it increases your nutrient levels.

[bob115]

I can definitely see where people are coming from. I strongly agree about the point if I ever have to have someone else take care of the tank for a few days. While I suppose to me a mandarin may be on the table 'some day' but for now I think its best left alone.

 

I am now curious about the nutrient problems mentioned about dosing pods. I'm confused as to why this would be significantly worse than the food load of other fish. Obviously whatever pods get eaten will pollute the tank the same as any other food, but wouldn't "overfeeding" not really be a problem? In the time between adding a culture whatever isn't eaten is still alive and should survive until the mandarin has eaten the entire addition. Even if the tank cannot support the peak pod population, just after the addition, the mandarin should be decimating those numbers to where large scale starvation wouldn't be a problem, right? Or does a mandarin just require a large amount (dry weight) of food compared to other fish?

[Clown79]

Mandarins eat constantly. The amount of pods you will need to add every week $$$$.

 

Most supplement feeding frozen and the amount mandarins need to stay fat and healthy really adds a lot of nutrients to the tank.

 

Example. I have a goby that won't eat pellets. I now feed a small amount of frozen daily. My nitrates in a week went from 5ppm to 10ppm. So feeding frozen every day has changed my nutrient levels.

[burtbollinger]

In the time between adding a culture whatever isn't eaten is still alive and should survive until the mandarin has eaten the entire addition. Even if the tank cannot support the peak pod population

big assumption that he's gonna eat anything, period. plus, the pods you add to keep him happy and thriving, it he does eat them, are in the $2500-3000 dollar range for a year. just my experience.

 

again, it comes down to just how do you want to enjoy the hobby...is your focus a healthy, stable reef tank? easy. no mandarin. I'm sure some have no problems...all i can share is my experience.

 

now, are you bored with a reef? looking to mostly ignore the reef part? Have $2,000 a year for pods for a healthy and plump 15 dollar fish? go ahead and have mandarin nano tank.

[bob115]

big assumption that he's gonna eat anything, period. plus, the pods you add to keep him happy and thriving, it he does eat them, are in the $2500-3000 dollar range for a year. just my experience.

 

again, it comes down to just how do you want to enjoy the hobby...is your focus a healthy, stable reef tank? easy. no mandarin. I'm sure some have no problems...all i can share is my experience.

 

now, are you bored with a reef? looking to mostly ignore the reef part? Have $2,000 a year for pods for a healthy and plump 15 dollar fish? go ahead and have mandarin nano tank.

 

I kind of get the feeling you didn't actually read either of my posts...

 

The entire premise of the thread was culturing my own pods at home and how fast he would eat a 2L bottle culture. Then in the next one I said its not really a good fit for my tank at the present moment.

 

All I was asking about is why pod additions are worse for the tank than feeding more conventional foods to any other fish, as from my understanding they really shouldn't be.

[burtbollinger]

I read your posts, three times actually...I just don't feel the need to fake an answer I don't know in response to a paragraph long hypothetical question.

 

I'd rather remind you not to mess with it and walk away...or not...if you feel like culturing pods, and the food to feed those pods, etc

[bob115]

I read your posts, three times actually...I just don't feel the need to fake an answer I don't know in response to a paragraph long hypothetical question.

 

I'd rather remind you not to mess with it and walk away...or not...if you feel like culturing pods, and the food to feed those pods, etc

 

Look I'm not trying to start a fight here, but you brought up that buying pods to feed a mandarin costs a lot--and it does--three times when that was never even being discussed. If you don't know, that is perfectly fine, you don't need to belabor a moot point, just don't post. And excuse me for asking for clarification on a statement that doesn't seem to make sense.

[gonebad395]

So the whole question in a nut shell is how fast the fish will go through a 2l bottle?

[burtbollinger]

just don't post.

you're right. I can see how trying to helpfully reiterate a basic point could be seen as starting a "fight."

 

Maybe I was wrong. In fact, I think you should go for it. Just make sure to do a detailed thread on it. I'd really enjoy following along seeing your efforts.

[BulkRate]

I had a discussion with another NR'r looking to culture pods for a red scooter (unsure if ruby or stellatus) a few weeks ago... http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/379034-farming-copepods-for-red-scooter/

 

I did it for mine, and things went pretty well until a freak anemone sting (pom-pom crabs can be packing the equivalent of magnums) killed mine about a year in. ONLY worked because the little guy loved Omega One marine micro pellets from almost the get-go. And I STILL had to dose in pods to keep it from losing the sleekness. I eventually cultured to keep the $20 fish from costing me more than our dog does in a year.

 

It was work. I loved the little fish and would watch it for almost an hour a day. Yet I now love my low-maintenance nano reef a lot more because I'm not sweating the dietary needs of a single occupant.

 

Burtbolinger's steering you true on the how-much-effort aspect and its potential impact - I don't think anyone here is saying you absolutely can't achieve the goal of keeping a mandarin... it's fully possible and there's a bunch of ways to get 'er done. As an aside, if you've got ok DIY skills look into PaulB's brine feeder - looks like the hands down most effective way to maintain mandarins/pipefish in an aquarium, provided you can make it blend into your tank.

[Snow_Phoenix]

Bob, I don't think anyone on this thread was trying to start an argument with you. Bottom line is, owning a Mandy is going to be very time-consuming and it will be very costly if you're planning to constantly seed the tank with pods. If you truly insist on owning a Mandy, read up on some of the threads on the site on how to train the fish onto frozen. Even then, I have to warn you - most Mandarins tend to waste away unless you're committed to feeding them frozen around five times a day. The multiple feedings will cause a spike in nutrients and waste in the tank - which can be very problematic.

 

As for your original question, we'll need to know the density of the pod culture in the 2L bottle first. A mandy can consume several thousand pods per day - I'd say a 2L bottle will last 2 weeks, tops - and even that is a stretch. If you really wish to provide a purely natural habitat for your Mandy, toss as much macro into the tank and sump as possible. But be warned, there's a high chance it will still starve and die.

 

I'm currently having a Mandy and I have to say, I don't leave the house for long periods of time because I need to constantly feed him. It's tiresome, but I love him. Still, sometimes I have to wonder if it's worth all that time, money and effort for such a pretty but needy fish.