PH Crash!

[jburke30]

Greetings All,

 

I've been having problems with PH for a while now, and of all the water chemistry issues PH is the only one that I've had any trouble with at all (salinity, temp, NH3, NO2, NO3 have been very consistant).

 

My PH has had a tendency to drop to 7.7 pretty regularly, so I started buffering the PH with Seachem's Reef Buffer, and for a good while doing so keep the PH at 8.2-8.4 for a day or two before I needed to add the treatment again.

 

However, since last week my buffering attempts don't seem to be doing anything at all. So I decided to add another power head to help circulate the water some more, and now when I add the PH buffer the PH levels drop back down to 7.7 within 2 hours. To be honest, finding this out is causing me a great deal of stress (as well as the fish, I'm assuming), so I decided to try something drastic. I went to the pet store and bought some Argonite substrate mixture (since it's supposed to buffer PH), and added another 1/2 in of substrate to my tank (I'm now at about 2 inches of substrate).

 

My hope is that this will help with the buffering, but I'm very concerned that there's not enough oxygen in the tank (I don't have a test kit for it right now). I'm also concerned that something in the tank is causing the water to soften too much (or possibly that the water I'm adding is to soft - I use RO water from the local grocery store). This problem should be able to be controlled with water additives, and I'll need to get a test kit to know for sure.

 

Anyway. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a more long lasting solution to my PH problem? I'm very worried that I'm stressing this fish too much with the up and down of the PH buffering even though I make sure that I only move the PH .2 points max in a 24 hour period. Also, any thoughts on the oxygen issue would be very helpful. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jason

[C2187]

Need more info about you tank in order to be any help.

[Fant]

Whats your alkalinity. You should test that as well, and supplement that as needed. You will want to maintain between 8-12 dkh or 3-4.5 meq/l. If you can get your alkalinity under control your pH should fall in place. You may also want to consider at what times your testing. Throughout the day your tank will experience pH flunctions. Right before the lights come on your pH will be its lowest. And right when the lights turn off the pH will be at its highest. Are you using a fill tightly fitting glass lid? If you are that could  be a problem. Those lids will inhibit gas exchange and retain co2 thus lowering your pH. If you need a lid to protect your lights. it would be best if you could raise the lid so that there is some room for air circulation across the water surface.

[mxpro32]

i have been having the same problem with my alkalinity. i have been using b-ionic which i figured would raise my alkalinity. but last time my lfs tested my water they said the alk was a point low and my ph is always around 8.0 i was reading somewhere that you are supposed to buffer and aerate your top off water before topping off your tank.  thats what im gonna try next.  does that sound right to you??  oh by the way,  all of my corals are doing good i just think they would do even better if the alk was right.  the b-ionic did bring my calcium levels up to 400.

 

(Edited by mxpro32 at 5:21 am on June 17, 2002)

[Fant]

If your messing around with additives and trying to figgure out the schedule to maintain ca/alk/pH. Sometimes it helps to do a water change and let the tank sit for a few days. Then you can test and go from there and figgure out the right schedule. If you neglect water changes, or depending on the additives used, you can create an ionic imbalance in your tank. If this happens then you get a nasty see saw effect when trying to maintain Ca and Alk. There are a few products out there that you can use to remineralize RO water. It will give a proper ratio of a few basic minerals. I think one of the products is called aragamite or some such thing. Iv never personally used these.

[jburke30]

Hey Guys, Thanks for joining the tread. =)

 

To C2187: I have a 10 gallon glass tank, with 10 lbs of live rock, and about 15 lbs of substrate. There's a Penguin 125 Bio-Wheel w/carbon filter, 2 Zoo Med power sweep 214, and an air pump (I just added this yesterday to help with the possible oxygen problem) in the tank. For lighting I have a single 15 watt flourescent bulb in a standard 10 gallon hood (I have three bulbs - 1 50/50, 1 Blue actinct, 1 GE all purpose bulb - and the blue actinct is in right now).

 

I'm aware that the lighting is sorely underpowered, and I'm working to upgrade it. However, right now the tank is fish only so I havn't been too worried about it.

 

Here's a quick rundown of the actions I have taken to help slow the PH drops.

 

1.) I added another powerhead, and now there should be anywhere from 110 to 320 gph circulating in the tank.

 

2.) I added about 2 - 3 lbs of argonite mixture to help buffer the PH.

 

3.) I added an air pump, and attached it to my power heads (they have connectors for this) to help add more oxygen to the water.

 

I'm going to check the PH tonight at about 9:00 pm, and well see if these measures have helped any. I'm also going to pick up an alk test kit and do a water change like Fant suggested. However, I've noticed that my Damsel is a great deal perkier today than he was on Friday, so I think that some of this has helped even if it didn't completely fix my Ph (I think that perhaps I had a buildup of carbon dioxide in the tank). And with that last statment I think that water softness is my main issue cause I can't think of anything else that might be affecting Ph. Anyone know of anything else?

 

Jason

 

(Edited by jburke30 at 11:49 am on June 17, 2002)

[C2187]

How old is your tank and what kind of substrate do you have.  You should also always check your pH in the morning. Have you tested your source water yet. How many fish do you have in your tank. Is it possible that you have something dead somewhere your not aware of.  Do you have any rocks or decorations that might be dissolving and lowering the pH.  How often are you doing water changes.  How often are you feeding.

 

(Edited by C2187 at 12:19 pm on June 17, 2002)

[jburke30]

>How old is your tank and what kind of substrate do you have.  

 

The tank has been up and running since March 2nd of this year. For substrate I have a layer of coarse sand mixed with crushed coral and shell fragements, and a layer of the argonite mixture that I put in yesterday.

 

>You should also always check your pH in the morning.

 

I do, and it's usually at 7.7 - 8.0, this was normally the time that I would add the Ph buffer.

 

>Have you tested your source water yet.

 

Not extensively. The water is RO water from the local Shop and Save.

 

>How many fish do you have in your tank.

 

1 Blue Damsel. Aside from that I have 2 Astraea Snails, 5 Bumble bee Snails, and 3 Hermit Crabs.

 

>Is it possible that you have something dead somewhere your not aware of.  

 

Perhaps, I havn't noticed anything, but I did seem to have a lot of detritus buildup in the old sand bed (which is now covered). I do have some worms in there, but how many and of what type I couldn't tell you (I just see little pathways in the sand next to the aquarium glass). It's possible that one of the bumble bee snails has died, since I've only recently counted 4 out at once (3 weeks ago was the last time I counted all 5 at once).

 

>Do you have any rocks or decorations that might be dissolving and lowering the pH.  

 

All I have is live rock, and yes this does seem to be dissolving. This is something I just noticed recently.

 

>How often are you doing water changes.  

 

Once a week, from 2 to 3 gallons.

 

>How often are you feeding.

 

I do 2 feedings a day (morning and evening). Of either flake, frozen brine shrimp, or frozen blood worms. However, the Damsel acts like he's starved, and at times I wonder if I need to feed a bit more (though he looks healthy to me).

 

I look forward to hearing your analysis.

 

Jason

 

(Edited by jburke30 at 3:40 pm on June 17, 2002)

[HuBu]

take the carbon out of the filter right away. carbon will remove trace elements out of your water. this could be why your alk is low and your pH is low since the buffering you are dosing the tank with has no effect.

[C2187]

Alright, your tank is very new so it will be very unstable for some time. This could be part of your problem. Since you don't have any coral yet I wouldn't be too concerned about your pH problem. The first thing you need to do is be patient. I think this is the number one cause of problems in reef tanks is impatients. Everybody wants a quick fix.  If I were you I would stop with the chemicals. Keep doing your water changes 10% per week.  Make sure there is nothing dead in your tank, and make sure you don't overfeed. Dont stir your sand bed or siphon it out. Give it a month or so. I bet everything will start to level out.  It might not be perfect after just one month but you may see an improvement. If you do, let it go another month. The key is to be PATIENT.... If things dont change naturally then you can start to add the chemicals.

[jburke30]

Here's a quick update.

 

I tested Kh last night and camp up with 10Kh, which is at the upper end of what is recommended. I guess it's possible that the argonite mixture I added is kicking in thought it seems a little soon for that to happen (in a 24 hour period), so perhaps Kh wasn't the main problem.

 

My best guess at this point is that I have too much decaying matter in my substrate (from earlier overfeeding of a Mandarin fish that I had in the tank - She's now in a better home) which is causing the water to acidify as well as drive my nitrates up (the nitrates in the tank seem to rise by about 20 ppm per week).

 

I'm just going to leave the substrate alone as C2187 suggested, but I'd like to do something to combat the climbing nitrates while the tank substrate stabilizes. The only thought I've had is to add a refugium to encourage more algae growth. The cleaning crew and Damsel in the tank are very effective at removing algae of all types - macro as well as micro, so I can't grow any in the main tank.

 

Does this sound like a good move, or should I just keep doing 30% water changes to keep the nitrates down?

 

Jason

[HuBu]

water change will always help.

[jburke30]

Quote: from HuBu on 10:57 am on June 18, 2002[br]water change will always help.

 

I'd like to tank everyone again for joining in, this has been a great learning experience for me and I appreciate all the thoughts and ideas everyone has posted.

 

Anyway, no arguments on the water changing, but I would prefer to do water changes to replenish trace elements instead of it being the sole means of fighting off rising nitrate levels. I'm assuming at some point, now that I'm feeding normally, the matter in the substrate will fully decay and the nitrate levels will rise at a slower rate, but the question I have is how long will it take to get to that point. If it's going to take 6 months to get there then, perhaps, adding the refugium now will be beneficial. Also at a later date I can prune back the algae, add some reef cleaners and turn it into a second tank (okay, so I have an ulterior motive here =).  

 

I'm still doing my research on the refugium though, and my concern is that I'm just going to be compounding my problems in the long run (with algae going sexual, etc, etc). The one thing it would do is bring my water footprint up to 30 gallons which might make my task of maintaining water quality easier.

 

Just a thought,

 

Jason

[lizbeth]

. How often are you feeding.

 

I do 2 feedings a day (morning and evening). Of either flake, frozen brine shrimp, or frozen blood worms. However, the Damsel acts like he's starved, and at times I wonder if I need to feed a bit more (though he looks healthy to me).

 

My damsel alway acts hungry too, but I only feed him once a day. They are pretty smart when it comes to figuring out you mean food, so they wiggle and act cute!

[jburke30]

Quote: from lizbeth on 2:51 pm on June 18, 2002[br]

. How often are you feeding.

 

I do 2 feedings a day (morning and evening). Of either flake, frozen brine shrimp, or frozen blood worms. However, the Damsel acts like he's starved, and at times I wonder if I need to feed a bit more (though he looks healthy to me).

 

My damsel alway acts hungry too, but I only feed him once a day. They are pretty smart when it comes to figuring out you mean food, so they wiggle and act cute!

 

 

Hehe...Yeah mine seems to have a voracious appetite. He's the main reason why my amphipod population no longer exists in the  tank. He's also getting pretty agressive now, he nips at my hands and test kit tubes whenever I put them in the tank =). One might think that he's starved, but his well rounded belly tells the real story (perhaps I overfeed him at one time, and now he's just fat =).

 

Jason