SPS Grown With LED : Testings, Thoughts, Ideas

[DaveFason]

NR Gang,

The continual discussion about SPS and LEDs will go on for years to come. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what you are doing, your thoughts and possible ideas. As well helping others that are looking at trying to grow stony corals in your aquarium. I feel that LEDs often get the blame for anything coral related because they are still so new.

 

I have been running real time tests using the NanoBox line up for a few months now. Pictured is uniquecorals newly collected "Purple Monster". I have already seen increased coloration, growth and polyp extension in less than five weeks in my tank. I will dig through the SD cards and show the original photo of the Purple Monster when I received it.

 

Week Five : Purple is starting to shine and a solid base is forming.

purplemonsterweek4 by Dave Fason, on Flickr

 

Settings & PAR :

Above is illuminated by a NanoBox Duo Plus. Running UV/Violet - 85%, blue/cyan - 70%, royal blue - 80% and whites/lime - 50%. This creates ~255 PAR at the Purple Monsters placement. It receives moderate to heavy flow provided by a Ecotech MP10 on Reef Crest setting.

• ALK - 8
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• CAL - 420
• 
  
• Dosing NYOS Coral Nectar, Absolute Aminos and AcroPower.
• 
  

I will continue to update everyone as it progresses and make this a bi-monthly update on this and other SPS species. I currently have around ten species of SPS corals that I am documenting.

 

Thoughts :

• Quit playing with your settings so often. I see this all the time. Keep a setting and roll with it for a few months. MH/T5 are very much plug and play, staying the same for long periods of time. LEDs allow for so much adjustment that people can stress corals by running to much or to little every other day.
• 
  
• Consistency - Keep your parameters consistent! Super simple but normally over looked. If your parameters are low or high, SLOWLY bring them up or down. Quick adjustments will kill a tank.
• 
  
• Browned corals are much easier to bring back than bleached corals. It will take 10x longer to bring a bleached coral back to its normal color.
• 
  
• Flow is crucial. SPS needs this to survive ( Any coral for that matter ). Currently I run a MP10 ( 100% ), Tunze 6020 and return pump on a 25 gallon. Nice, broad flow will do wonders.
• 
  
• A little PO4 or nitrates will not kill your tank. Having everything at 0 will literally starve your tank. This does not mean feed your tank 10x the amount of food but find a good medium. Good flow will allow for food not to sit around and tank inhabitants will eat most.
• 
  

Ideas :

• Less optics. NanoBox units do not use secondary optics allowing for a even distribution of light/PAR. This allows for corals to grow naturally and even. I have found this helps reduce shadowing, color separation and well dispersed light.
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• Quit comparing your tank to all the IG/FaceBook photos. You would be amazed how people will doctor there tanks up. Most of these photos are of small .5" - 1" frags. Not mature colonies. These guys are not the " Coral Mastas "
• 
  
• Aminos are your friends? There is nothing that I can prove other than my tank looks incredible while using them. Do you use them? How much?
• 
  

 

What are your thoughts?

 

-Dave

[JR!]

going to follow closely

[HarryPotter]

I think the LEDs work great, it's just that their spread is lacking. If you have (or an afford) more LED pucks to cover the tank sufficiently (and have overlapping distribution over corals), I think there would be little drawback overall.

[righttirefire]

I can't NR, lost 2 replies to this thread... FOLLOWING. Will add my experience, pictures, and thoughts.

[gus6464]

I think the LEDs work great, it's just that their spread is lacking. If you have (or an afford) more LED pucks to cover the tank sufficiently (and have overlapping distribution over corals), I think there would be little drawback overall.

 

The king of LED spread right now is the Kessil AP700.

 

Spread is like MH based on the spectrometer readings. Very impressive.

[HarryPotter]

Here is a red planet acropora I've grown under LEDs from a small frag. This coral is directly under my LED fixture. Notice that the color and growth has been great, but youll see that there are little to no polyps on the lower sides and bottom due to shadowing.

 

 

Here is a simply Green Slimer that I've had for a month or two. Although it is encrusting, the side that faces away from my LED fixture has little to no polyp extension and is losing all color.

 

 

 

Overall I think that the actual LEDs have the same capability of growing corals- but you need quite a few units to avoid shadowing that makes them somewhat uneconomical compared to MH or T5

[sangheili]

Not gonna talk to much on this topic as I don't have much time this morning, but heres a thought dump:

 

The recent videos from BRS are quite good in exploring this topic. The idea of light coverage and spread are extremely critical for SPS due to their growth patterns and shadowing themselves.

 

Personally I moved away from pure-LED systems some time ago. I was never able to get the success I can EASILY attain from Halides or T5. LEDs without optics (usually) provide horrible PAR past 12 inches unless you over-light the tank (and then lose all those lovely efficiency benefits of LEDs). LEDs with optics (usually) make for serious spotlighting and make things even worse when some branches of a coral are blasted with certain colors and neighboring branches get other colors.

 

With that said, the gold standard in my eyes is still the ATI Powermodule Hybrid. Their combination of best-in-class T5 output and fantastically designed LED reflectors make a nearly perfect light.

 

Dave, in order to get any real data you really should setup two identical tanks that share the same water/sump and hang different lights over them. Get a few frags from Unique (or me) of the same coral and observe. Comparing different tanks from different hobbyists is going to be quite challenging.

[DaveFason]

 

The king of LED spread right now is the Kessil AP700.

 

Spread is like MH based on the spectrometer readings. Very impressive.

Gus, while I think they are in the right direction with the new "optic" they are using I still think the 48" is a far cry from reality. I wish I was considered a larger company so I could have sent a Quad to BRS. The Quad is still one of my favorite units I make that is highly under rated. Four pucks, evenly spread across the 24" unit.

 

Here is a red planet acropora I've grown under LEDs from a small frag. This coral is directly under my LED fixture. Notice that the color and growth has been great, but youll see that there are little to no polyps on the lower sides and bottom due to shadowing.

 

 

 

Here is a simply Green Slimer that I've had for a month or two. Although it is encrusting, the side that faces away from my LED fixture has little to no polyp extension and is losing all color.

 

 

Overall I think that the actual LEDs have the same capability of growing corals- but you need quite a few units to avoid shadowing that makes them somewhat uneconomical compared to MH or T5

You will see this with any lighting source however. Even though you are using the wide secondary optics, I still think zero optics is key. Here is another Acro in my tank. This is located 2" away from the glass and the pictured side is facing AWAY from the the light. It receives ~ 200-210 PAR.

tricolorweek4 by Dave Fason, on Flickr

tricolorcloseweek4 by Dave Fason, on Flickr

[DaveFason]

Thanks for stopping by! With larger builds and set ups like yourself, LEDs are not the answer. It requires far to many lights that just becomes insanely pricey. Pico/Nano/medium sized tanks are perfect candidates for LEDs while larger set ups are more geared towards Hybrids.

 

I will argue with a good cluster of LEDs without optics will still obtain great/usable PAR numbers at depths of less than 20". It have been using this theory and have had zero issues over the years ( and many others on this forum ). Now that better violets are out, the research that blue spectrums can really do some serious work and things just being more understood.

 

The ATI PM is a great light. The reflectors they use are the best. However the tiny array of LEDs centered is not doing much. When you have six - eight T5 bulbs flanking a small cluster of LEDs dead center you just wont see much from them. Again amazing light however.

 

I will be setting up a new tank in the next few months and will be trying a few other options. I am not using this thread as an end all be all or scientific data ( I wish I could afford some of the items BRS used! ). More info for customers that have worked for them, what is working for me and how we are doing it.

 

Also keep kicking ass out there with your corals. They look phenomenal! If you wanted to get in on the action drop me a PM. I would love to see how your corals look under the PM and then under a NBR light.

Not gonna talk to much on this topic as I don't have much time this morning, but heres a thought dump:

 

The recent videos from BRS are quite good in exploring this topic. The idea of light coverage and spread are extremely critical for SPS due to their growth patterns and shadowing themselves.

 

Personally I moved away from pure-LED systems some time ago. I was never able to get the success I can EASILY attain from Halides or T5. LEDs without optics (usually) provide horrible PAR past 12 inches unless you over-light the tank (and then lose all those lovely efficiency benefits of LEDs). LEDs with optics (usually) make for serious spotlighting and make things even worse when some branches of a coral are blasted with certain colors and neighboring branches get other colors.

 

With that said, the gold standard in my eyes is still the ATI Powermodule Hybrid. Their combination of best-in-class T5 output and fantastically designed LED reflectors make a nearly perfect light.

 

Dave, in order to get any real data you really should setup two identical tanks that share the same water/sump and hang different lights over them. Get a few frags from Unique (or me) of the same coral and observe. Comparing different tanks from different hobbyists is going to be quite challenging.

Harry,

I forgot. Here is my old shallow 35 using a Sunpower and medium sized colony. You will see shadowing as well. How are the corals above in the photo doing?

Birdsnest side by David Fason, on Flickr

 

[HarryPotter]

Harry,

I forgot. Here is my old shallow 35 using a Sunpower and medium sized colony. You will see shadowing as well. How are the corals above in the photo doing?

Birdsnest side by David Fason, on Flickr

 

True, similar results

[Nano sapiens]

For what it's worth...

 

I agree with you that at present pico/nano tanks are the best candidates for 'LED only' lighting. Part of the reason is the miserable choice of shorter length T5 bulbs. The main reason is the reduced amount of heat, compared to other light sources, that is directed at the small body of water thus minimzing temperature swings.

 

Having worked with LEDs for around five years on my older 12g nano tank, I do think that light spread is crucial. Having a mixed reef is more challenging, though, and in some cases where high light loving SPS and lower light LPS/Shrooms are placed together in a shallower tank, placing the corals appropriately is extremely vital. In a small tank, 1" from side-to-side or back-to-front can mean success or failure with some of the more finicky corals. A good understanding of the corals' individual needs is essential and a PAR meter is certainly helpful in finding an appropriate setting.

 

As far as corals go, even more advanced reef keepers need to watch the intensity and photoperiod with LEDs. I've pushed some really nice corals too far with disasterous results. I now run more conservative PAR for all my corals (no higher than 300 PAR for some SPS and no higher than 150 PAR for the rest) and the animals do better over the long-haul. While PAR may not be high, the newer LED setups supply higher PUR which should be considered when judging an array's intensity (from a coral's perspective).

 

Flow is an interesting topic and for the majority of corals a good broad flow, as you mentioned, is essential. However, some corals I've worked with over the years respond best to what we'd consider 'slow' flow today. For example, Ricodia in high energy tanks tend to remain relatively small and withdrawn, but when placed in a lower flow system they expand beautifully. With a bit of experimentation, having higher flow in the upper part of the tank where the SPS typically reside is possible, while the lower parts housing LPS and such receive reduced flow.

 

I believe Aminos can be a double-edged sword and require the correct tank type to be effective. In a minimally filtered tank that is fed well (higher nutrient system), they can be harmful as they can contribute to eutrophication. In a LNS/ULNS, they can be quite beneficial since they can supply coral nutrients that are minimal in such systems. I have experimented with them for about two years now in an 'unfiltered' system using 1/2 the manufacturer's recommended dose and have had some unwanted algae growth. In a system employing a skimmer, GFO/GAC, I'd definitely consider using them regularly.

 

Lastly, it would have been very interesting to have had a Nanobox Quad as part of the BRS LED segment. Perhaps you could duplicate their testing methodology and post the results?

[righttirefire]

All these comparisons are from day one, after purchase/acclimation/dip from LFS, MH, to my system, Fluvel Marine/Reef LED, 24", 10K.

 

All recent pictures were from the 11/20/15, before I switched to NANOBOX Quad.

 

2.5 months in my system.

 

3 months in my system.

 

3 months in my system

[tautog83]

i agree that all leds probably work better on smaller tanks and hybrid big power t5s on larger tanks . With that being said i have a 80 gallon shallow with a reef breeders 48" photon and mostly all sps.. my max power is about 90 blues and 75 whites and thats about 12 inches from water surface . Ill agree you definatley get some shadowing and i dont have huge colonies but as of right now its getting the job done . I dont have the crazy growth that some people have but things are definatley growing. I think some tabling species are obviously going to be shadowed and i dont think there really is much you can do about it, besides intitial placement i think the same can be said in the above pictured birdsnest colony and its tight branches. At that point fragging is always a good idea to keep your corals in the best light scenario if your going the led route. however just as important as light is i think stability is right up there.with alk/calcium for good success

[jedimasterben]

You guys just need more light sources. Sanjay Joshi knows what I mean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pictures from his Facebook page, friend him to see all of them

[HarryPotter]

You guys just need more light sources. Sanjay Joshi knows what I mean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pictures from his Facebook page, friend him to see all of them

What lighting? Awesome

[Reefkid88]

Wow that's some serious growth.

[jedimasterben]

What lighting? Awesome

Eight Radion G2, his tank is ~500g, roughly 84x48x30. Lost almost all of his SPS when his chiller failed while traveling, figured while he had nothing else to lose, got rid of his 400w metal halides and switched to LED.

[basser1]

jedimasterben, on 23 Nov 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

Eight Radion G2, his tank is ~500g, roughly 84x48x30. Lost almost all of his SPS when his chiller failed while traveling, figured while he had nothing else to lose, got rid of his 400w metal halides and switched to LED.

 

Gasp.......

[markalot]

NR Gang,

The continual discussion about SPS and LEDs will go on for years to come.

 

--snip--

 

Above is illuminated by a NanoBox Duo Plus. Running UV/Violet - 85%, blue/cyan - 70%, royal blue - 80% and whites/lime - 50%. This creates ~255 PAR at the Purple Monsters placement. It receives moderate to heavy flow provided by a Ecotech MP10 on Reef Crest setting.

 

 

 

In my opinion you solved most of the issues by adding Lime, which makes the tank much brighter to the eyes and prevents folks from running a bright LED tank that ends up putting > 400 PAR on the SPS. A huge first step.

 

Next will be limiting the custom color selection to those that are known to work, damn the users anyway. Ok, more reasonable would be a suggestion of settings known to work.

 

Finally, the only thing that will really solve the shading issue is more pucks. If we were talking people on a stage no one would illuminate them with a couple of spotlights overhead shining down, yet this is how most LED fixtures are designed. You need light that comes from the front, overhead, and behind, just like one would light a stage, IMO. The best looking LED lit tanks, IMO, use a gob of fixtures mounted so the pucks are front to back rather than side to side, or just a ton of fixtures side to side and front to back to ensure good coverage.

 

Certainly something that is easier to do on nanos than huge tanks.

 

Other than shadowing I don't buy the argument that says you can't get good colors under LED. Some colors will be different, some better, some worse. I have my 40 tuned in, finally, but the tank is dark at 250 PAR due to the lack of Lime LED's. Sadly, with all the lights I have, I can't afford to buy another fixture.

[gus6464]

All the great SPS tanks with LEDs have a boatload of fixtures. It's not uncommon to see a common 48x24x20 tank with 3-4 Radions with the pucks placed front to back vs left to right. That is $2600 worth of LED to get the same even coverage that a $500 ATI sunpower could do. Sure you have to buy bulbs but $2000 in bulbs is a whole lotta bulbs to break even.

[DaveFason]

Great discussion guys! I have a few friends that will be popping in with there success as well.

 

One item that I really enjoyed about the BRS videos is the rather realistic PAR numbers needed for corals. All to often you see people claiming 500+ needed or more is just crazy.

 

I love that we are able to have a true discussion rather than people bickering with each other. NR #winning

 

-Dave

[smeagol108]

Great discussion. And I agree and enjoy that they are taking realistic par numbers. I mean I was growing sps with a crappy current orbit light before my nanobox and that definitely wasn't putting out par anywhere near the numbers u hear people talking about.

[masterbuilder]

I tried a Radion Pro over my Elos Mini and had the same shadowing problem that Harry Potter experienced. I was about to add another Radion but thought I would give a ghl Mitras LED a try and problem solved. I get almost zero shadowing since they use six arrays arranged right on the edge/corners of the fixture and dont use narrow lenses to pump up the PAR to ridiculous levels. I am a believer in LED's but you just have to have enough arrays and/or fixtures to cover your tank.

 

With all that LED love said... I would jump to a hybrid LED/T5 in a heartbeat if my tank was big enough (17x17). A 24" fixture hanging over the ends of my tank would look so damn ghetto. IMO, you just cant do better than a hybrid regardless of how big of a budget or tank you have.

 

The best lighting setup I have seen is Metrokats hybrid from Dave. The ATI hybrid is a distant second but they are so damn stingy with their LED arrays that they just dont seem to be an effective hybrid too me.

 

Kats/Daves Hybrid. Finally someone understands how it needs to be done.

 

 

 

Mark

 

p.s. Stole the pics, but please dont taze me bro.

[jedimasterben]

Yeah, most people don't understand that corals can tolerate a pretty vast range of light, usually with fairly low minimums in the 60-80 PAR range and maximums depending on the coral. Some soft corals can tolerate 600+ PAR before hitting their saturation point, whereas some acropora won't tolerate over 250. Most of the stuff you see spewn over and over about SPS needing super high light and soft corals needing low light is usually bunk.

After all the above nonsense, the best lighting setup I have seen is Metrokats hybrid from Dave. The ATI hybrid is a distant second but they are so damn stingy with their LED arrays that they just dont seem to be an effective hybrid too me.

 

Kats/Daves Hybrid. Finally someone understands how it needs to be done.

 

 

Mark

 

p.s. Stole the pics, but please dont taze me bro.

kat was a copykat

 

[masterbuilder]

Yup...should have included Jedi's awesome hybrid. Brainlock this early in the AM.