HarryPotter Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Head to Head: NanoBox Duo vs Radion Same tank. Same parameters. Two Lights. The Question: Which light grows an identical sized (and origin) piece of Montipora cap faster and with better coloration? I will be putting the Radion on one side of the tank and NanoBox on the other. A small frag of coral will be placed on the sand bed (Slightly raised) for a month or so to compare growth The Lights: NanoBox Duo with V3 Pucks (Newest, includes lime) Nano box Duo par readings (chart is mislabeled, this IS duo) Radion XR30w Pro Gen 2 (Not newest model) [Details below are for XR30w Pro Gen 3. Contacted Ecotech for Gen 2 chart] Link to comment
smiz Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 This will be very interesting! Tagging along Link to comment
HarryPotter Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Same PAR? In the process of getting par charts. Nano box had the quad listed on the duo page, and I need to get the Gen2 Pro par from Ecotech Link to comment
evilc66 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I would suggest putting an opaque partition between the two sections of the tank (above and below water) so that both corals are isolated from the others light source. It will take away any variance that may occur from light bleeding over to the other side of the tank. Link to comment
HarryPotter Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 I would suggest putting an opaque partition between the two sections of the tank (above and below water) so that both corals are isolated from the others light source. It will take away any variance that may occur from light bleeding over to the other side of the tank. Hmm. I see what you're saying but this IS my display tank and I only have one Vortech MP40. There will be a slight change: the NanoBox is going to be a Trio. I will update the information above accordingly Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I would select the same kelvin temperature on each Link to comment
Jorgieee Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Hmm. I see what you're saying but this IS my display tank and I only have one Vortech MP40. There will be a slight change: the NanoBox is going to be a Trio. I will update the information above accordingly This would be nice but I'm thinking they are going to interfere with each other as far as the spread goes no? Link to comment
smeagol108 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 why not use one light for a month and than switch to the other light for a month? and not use them simultaneously. that seems like it would be the most accurate test. Link to comment
masterbuilder Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I look forward to what happens. If I were a betting man I know which one I would put my money on. p.s. The bigger mystery will be what the post count is on how to run your test. Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 why not use one light for a month and than switch to the other light for a month? and not use them simultaneously. that seems like it would be the most accurate test. Negative ghost rider. Link to comment
evilc66 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Hmm. I see what you're saying but this IS my display tank and I only have one Vortech MP40. There will be a slight change: the NanoBox is going to be a Trio. I will update the information above accordingly Then just place the separator above the water line to minimize any light spill. If you want to make this an accurate test, you have to have some kind of separation. why not use one light for a month and than switch to the other light for a month? and not use them simultaneously. that seems like it would be the most accurate test. Not really. You influence the growth and coral with one light, then change to another light. You can't see how well the coral reacts from that point because you have changed the way the coral grew from the original sample. Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 In reality if you want to have the most reliable study, you need to have more then one replicate to control for erroneous data from maybe dips in trace elements, high temperate or any other issues. What you're really wanting to do is an ANOVA with a Dunnett's post hoc test set to a control. I agree with Evil, on his explanation of why switching would not be ideal. Also I would look at recording pre circumference and heigh, post circumference, and delta (post-pre). The trouble comes into how you want to set up the study design, I think the issue comes into low replicates so a T-Test with no control might be the better route when you look into that, also if you have unequal samples you'll need to do a non-parametic test, you also have to look into equal distribution or goodness of fit for the data. Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 You won't be able to do any statistics that are meaningful on a single replicate of a single sample. You also have no controls to compare to. I like your idea, but unless you are going to go all the way, I'd say just see which light ends up yielding happier coral. It's not definitive and there are LOTS of variables that could sway your data without you thinking about it. Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 You won't be able to do any statistics that are meaningful on a single replicate of a single sample. If you can repeat the experiment 4-6 times it would be meaningful, especially since the variance between sample is low since it's a clone. Research in inbred mice can have an N=6 with a power analysis. Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 If you can repeat the experiment 4-6 times it would be meaningful, especially since the variance between sample is low since it's a clone. Research in inbred mice can have an N=6 with a power analysis. Right, but that's multiple replicates. Has harry proposed to do multiple replicates for months each? I didn't think so? There are some great statistics OP could use if he were to carry out the experiment fully, but there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account for that, and I doubt OP wants to do that (or has the time/money). Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Right, but that's multiple replicates. Has harry proposed to do multiple replicates for months each? I didn't think so? There are some great statistics OP could use if he were to carry out the experiment fully, but there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account for that, and I doubt OP wants to do that (or has the time/money). Well Harry needs to decide if he wants to be a man of science also known as the keepers or truth The bio-statistician in me actually started writing out a model (FML right). Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Well Harry needs to decide if he wants to be a man of science also known as the keepers or truth The bio-statistician in me actually started writing out a model (FML right). I was initially writing a post about how to design multiple tanks with all the correct controls and such, lol. Biostats! Awesome - random, but do you recommend any good books for that? I took a biostats class in grad school but it was abysmal and I learned virtually nothing. I'd love to be better versed in biostats for work. Link to comment
smeagol108 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Unless there's total separation of light both frags will be influenced in a similar way as using one light for a month and than the other. Basically not accurate. Harry just setup another tank. Plumb them together. Problem solved. Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'll PM you, I have a couple good resources, my work is based on genetic manipulation. Link to comment
Jorgieee Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Unless there's total separation of light both frags will be influenced in a similar way as using one light for a month and than the other. Basically not accurate. Harry just setup another tank. Plumb them together. Problem solved. Thats what I was thinking Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Sent you 10 PDFs via PM Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 If anyone else is interested in those files send me a PM and I'll be happy to send them your way as well. Link to comment
HarryPotter Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 I would select the same kelvin temperature on each Probably, and get as similar intensity as possible I look forward to what happens. If I were a betting man I know which one I would put my money on. p.s. The bigger mystery will be what the post count is on how to run your test. I dunno which honestly. I love my Radion, but I've heard a lot from NanoBots. Then just place the separator above the water line to minimize any light spill. If you want to make this an accurate test, you have to have some kind of separation. Not really. You influence the growth and coral with one light, then change to another light. You can't see how well the coral reacts from that point because you have changed the way the coral grew from the original sample. I can make a separation that goes only 1" into the waterline and up to the lights- will that work? Right- that's why half and half with 2 identical samples is my idea In reality if you want to have the most reliable study, you need to have more then one replicate to control for erroneous data from maybe dips in trace elements, high temperate or any other issues. What you're really wanting to do is an ANOVA with a Dunnett's post hoc test set to a control. I agree with Evil, on his explanation of why switching would not be ideal. Also I would look at recording pre circumference and heigh, post circumference, and delta (post-pre). The trouble comes into how you want to set up the study design, I think the issue comes into low replicates so a T-Test with no control might be the better route when you look into that, also if you have unequal samples you'll need to do a non-parametic test, you also have to look into equal distribution or goodness of fit for the data. Eek I didn't realize it would be so complicated. I'm thinking of the parameters of the water are the same for both samples, the lighting would be the only variable. I can have a few samples though- like 3 of each coral on each side? You won't be able to do any statistics that are meaningful on a single replicate of a single sample. You also have no controls to compare to. I like your idea, but unless you are going to go all the way, I'd say just see which light ends up yielding happier coral. It's not definitive and there are LOTS of variables that could sway your data without you thinking about it. Sure- that's my idea. Which light grows coral "better" (faster/more colorful) in the same parameters Right, but that's multiple replicates. Has harry proposed to do multiple replicates for months each? I didn't think so? There are some great statistics OP could use if he were to carry out the experiment fully, but there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account for that, and I doubt OP wants to do that (or has the time/money). Well how about using 3 of each coral on each side? Didn't mean for it to be a very long term thing, just a month or two. I don't have the $$ to setup a more intensive study Well Harry needs to decide if he wants to be a man of science also known as the keepers or truth The bio-statistician in me actually started writing out a model (FML right). Haha I'd like to, but I can't plumb in another system or completely seperate the two areas. Someone PMd me about letting me borrow their PAR meter- that might be interesting as well. Unless there's total separation of light both frags will be influenced in a similar way as using one light for a month and than the other. Basically not accurate. Harry just setup another tank. Plumb them together. Problem solved. Haha I wish! No way would my parents let me plumb in another. They are unhappy enough already with the half hour a day I spend looking at or fiddling with the tank Link to comment
12_egg_Omelette Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I like multiple samples on each side, color would be very hard to judge since it's subjective. Link to comment
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