The return of dinoflagellates! :(

[Steve973]

Maybe the volume is not as important as the distance from the bulb, or the level of UVC that the volume is subject to. At least that was what I was referring to.

[brandon429]

at least you are full on attack mode!

[Steve973]

Brandon: I'm going to try everything that seems to have results as reported by people in the forums. After rebuilding my tank, the symptoms are VERY light, so now is the time to do what I can. I don't even have enough to siphon out, and all visible traces can be eliminated with 3 days of blackouts. I am currently not using hydrogen peroxide because it's a "new" tank and I don't want to destroy the bacteria if I can help it.

[Trigger334]

Bradon, yes I agree that this is about dinos and not about UVs. I only came in here to defend Carl's work because our company was alerted by a customer about this thread .

If you are looking for a treatment plan for these parasites, you would find it on our Medications article by Carl, which I already provided you. ("I am not arguing your use of peroxide. This use of peroxide is in another of his articles.
Reference:http://www.americana...drogen_peroxide").

 

The eradication plan is included here, but it appears by our stat software this article was not looked at before this questions was asked. You still may not find what you are looking for though, because you are looking for before and after pictures, which would be unfair to provided, since there's a few different factors to dinos and how they are treated. One treatment plan, may not work for all aquarium.

To Eradicate Dinoflagellate "Algae" Growth
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html

As a professional, Carl would require a sterilizer for a new tank install and would add on to est. tanks he took on. On all the tanks he hooked UV on before the tank got going, there's a 0% outbreak of dinos. This is just taking the suggestions from what's in his article and using them before hand.

He also makes no claims to a cure by using UV, Peroxide, or Micron Filters. He does however give some basic suggestions, since as you noted there is no clear black and white answer to this problem. So, if any snake oil comments are aimed at him, it's misguided.

I disagree in part as per your comment that a UV does not have to be professional to work. While yes it does not, why purchase a 55 watt UV when a professional UV of 15 watts will work just as well. The Tetra you cite utilizes high output low pressure UV bulbs, but has poor dwell time. The SunSun referred to has poor dwell time and worse uses medium pressure UV bulbs that are much less efficient (1 to 4 times less).

I guess I would rather spend $175 for a UV Sterilizer that will last for years and use less electricity, be more efficient, and be useful for more than just questionable use of dino control. Over a $95 Amazon UV that likely will have a much shorter lifespan, have no replaceable parts, ballast/starter issues etc.

 

Also, I much rather show support to companies, such as the sponsors of this forum, before I would ever purchase from Amazon, who have set-out to close doors on companies such as these. Companies like these sponsors are making this hobby healthier. Amazon does not care for this hobby.

There other concepts of a sterilizer are not being considered also, which could make a difference, like distance from the bulb and pre-filtration.

Steve, the more filtration you have in that canister, before the water goes through the UV, the better.

Outside reference:
http://www.aquariumopinions.com/2012/02/20/aquarium-pond-uv-sterilizer-review/

[CJJon]

Bradon, yes I agree that this is about dinos and not about UVs. I only came in here to defend Carl's work because our company was alerted by a customer about this thread .

 

 

I am so tired of people claiming blog posts are scientific research. Go troll someplace else.

[brandon429]

Hey if it helps Steve

bacteria are fully unaffected by peroxide use in our tanks even many documented overdoses... Its use isn't factored against tank bacteria (filtration/GAB/de nitrifiers) in any way so use or don't use

 

 

I'd use but any form of decisiveness is on the continuum of what got cure threads the good after pics.

 

Trigger I do a agree with the assessment that proper pro uv if sized right can be effective and save space and maybe even cost all agreed. I'm aware of the germicidal variance among non pro lamps dwell times sleeves and care my only point was we grossly overdo and get outcomes, so I don't know what the comparable model would be for a pro. I fix dino invasions in my threads using uv so I'd appreciate knowing whats the minimum pro model that will do it. Currently, a 55w did a good job on pork chop expresses tank in the large peroxide thread recently kicked up.

 

Its ok if another claims uv won't help them in any arrangement, the cure threads simply run independent of that opinion and I want every method we use highly scrutinized it can't be pointed enough. What emerges is the locus of proof.

 

 

A defensible summary of peroxide use ranging 3-35% in the marine aquarium regarding the trifecta bacterial groups based on 400 combined pages of countless tank peroxide threads:

 

Totally unimpactful

 

 

 

 

Use on a day old tank

 

Use on a tank that demonstrates NNR abilities, it won't kill your de nitrifiers their zones and boundaries persist. Peroxide is diluted in 90% of uses here and thats all it takes to make generalized aerobic bacteria multiply from its addition, not die or decrease.

 

 

One time, a poster from rc chem forum accused me of bio slander because he took some vibrio, a disease causing isolate nonetheless, melted them in a test tube with some stated amount of peroxide, and claimed this was happening to our nitrifiers. When I posted up only 200 pages of threads showing a few massive 35% overdoses and multiple 3% od's with no ammonia or nitrate spikes, that was quickly discounted by him as he'd seen enough. His test tube experiment using bacteria from a fully different metabolic niche and isolated from the communities and biofilms found in nature was the only proof needed, so opinions do vary lol.

 

Big threads are one of neatest ways to run a claim through the real test mill. Any truly best way of beating dinos uv or not will have to really step up in documentation across tanks to emerge past 20% likelihood we see for most common methods where after pics/proof are being posted.

[Steve973]

I am so tired of people claiming blog posts are scientific research. Go troll someplace else.

I like accurate info as much as the next guy, and I get frustrated by inaccurate info as much as the next guy. But if you have a specific problem with specific information, please share your concerns. General complaints really do not help anybody. It is also interesting that you ask him not to "troll", when your comment is clearly some species of troll itself. Let's be constructive, shall we?

[Trigger334]

Hey if it helps Steve

bacteria are fully unaffected by peroxide use in our tanks even many documented overdoses... Its use isn't factored against tank bacteria (filtration/GAB/de nitrifiers) in any way so use or don't use

 

Thanks for the addtional insight Brandon. We appreicate learning from others with more indepth understandings.

 

I like accurate info as much as the next guy, and I get frustrated by inaccurate info as much as the next guy. But if you have a specific problem with specific information, please share your concerns. General complaints really do not help anybody. It is also interesting that you ask him not to "troll", when your comment is clearly some species of troll itself. Let's be constructive, shall we?

 

Thank you Steve. I've requested for some moderation. Usually the best way to resolve the problem before it gets worst.

 

I hope the best for the dinos. I beleive there wont be much of an issue.

 

 

[ajmckay]

Wow lots of conflicting responses here! As it is with most things reefing, there are multiple "sworn by" methods people are almost too glad to recommend - the trouble is sifting through and finding the appropriate solution for your situation. I browsed the American Aquarium Products site that Trigger joined to promote/defend and it seems like there's some good stuff there.

 

To the OP, at least you're doing something. I think it would be most beneficial if you can contribute to the knowledge base on treating dinoflagellates though. Try to document everything relevant as completely as possibly and take lots of pictures. Descriptions aren't always useful and they get lost in all the other information. IMO this thread has mostly lost it's usefulness to other reefers battling dinos because it's just talk and very few posts with actual results of treatments.

[Steve973]

If I took a picture right now, you wouldn't think that there is a problem. I have rebuilt my tank, and put my fish back in, as well as two zoanthid plugs. I brought some dinos back into the rebuilt tank, and the problem is very slight. I am trying to get rid of them completely before they get really nasty. I can make them disappear with a three-day blackout, but they slowly creep back. I am trying to keep them at the bare edge of detectability until some of these measures eradicate them completely. I will be adding media to my canister filter sometime between tomorrow and this coming weekend.

[brandon429]

I think you are getting close

 

you'd be surprised at how a little bump of peroxide into the water on that third day right when they are weakened is a real zap, we timed it like that in a few threads where the blackout seemed effective. a little 1-2 pnch, little jab then an upper cut see what happens. 1 mil to 10 gallons volume once added on a blackout 3rd day wont kill anything but lysmata or blood shrimp (so pull em for 3 hrs if applc)

 

alternatively, that 3rd day is where uv can zap so no p has to be used

 

access any other uv and temp run it simul to continue decisive action, imo

 

the first was the rebuild which was surely a nice clean low detritus start.

[Steve973]

I added media to my canister filter yesterday evening. An overdose of rox carbon, a bag of purigen which is also a nice overdose, and a bunch of cuprisorb. These bags aren't covering the entire width of the trays in the filter, so I hope that they get enough water through the media to be helpful (the bags aren't packed tight or anything). I also filled my mini media reactor with Seachem phosguard, and that also provides a nice overdose. I don't have organisms that will protest (or die) from a rapid removal of phosphate. My Hanna checker doesn't show any phosphate, anyway, but I have it in there to grab whatever any dino die-off releases.

I'm using cuprisorb on the off-chance that there are some heavy metals present, but I am not sure that there really are. I am using a spectrapure 4-stage RO/DI unit with a new DI cartridge, and I am using hw-Marinemix reefer synthetic salt. I wonder if there would be another/different media that would be better in the canister filter.

[tibbsy07]

If you are going to use UV to kill stuff, you have to have enough UV exposure. You either need a LOT of UV or you need slower flow through the UV unit to allow for lower intensity bulbs to have more penetrating effects. Either will work. UV causes DNA damage which will kill cells. That's it. Personally, I would recommend higher UV with regular water flow, but that's my own hypothesis. Either should technically work.

 

UV won't kill stuff that isn't floating around the water column, though. If it's in your sandbed, the UV sterilizer won't do anything because the stuff in your sandbed isn't going through the sterilizer. A UV sterilizer won't save your tank on its own.

 

For the record, all of those articles posted from the website purporting the use of UV sterilizers is anecdotal information. There are lots of claims of experiments and yet NOTHING is actually reported except "I did this and it worked". No methods, no controls listed, no single piece of useful information except hand-wavy nonsense. This isn't an ad hominem attack - it is a scientist stating that the website in question is stating things as "science" that it has no business calling science or research.

[brandon429]

the kind of research outcome i like is when problem tanks are shown weeks later looking all nice and the keeper was able to catch a break in maintaining that status e.g. outcome reports.

 

since this thread was linked to the complaint thread in the gen forum we expect readership to skyrocket. and these hungry peeps want after pics for sure.

 

how is this controversial tank (the recommended fixes not the tank lol) coming along in this new week Steve updates! Id say your multipronged attack coupled with constant physical removal w beat them down, you just might have to sustain some work for a while until you get the upper hand on that biomass. In my offers, heavy manual removal superceded UV use, and UV use oversized was there to catch what was kicked up into the water, or that which makes a transition phase on its own on diurnal cycles. the 1-2 punch man-gets me good after pics each time

B

ive set this for a two month reminder follow up to get an idea of how it turned out.

[supernip]

what was this debacle about? synopsis please

[brandon429]

Id posed that adding a bunch of UV would help w dinos. In counter, the gentleman was saying not that much UV was needed because Id advised the op to grossly overdo UV, my own 75 gallon was using a pond sterilizer for a 10K pond pretty banal debate lol. in the end, my ideal goal is to collect some cure after pics and post them to peroxide threads where uv had no basis but we still want dino fixed tanks.

[supernip]

would you permanently rid your dino problem after removing the uv? they're fast multiplying and some are benthic and shit.

[tibbsy07]

would you permanently rid your dino problem after removing the uv? they're fast multiplying and some are benthic and shit.

That was my question - UV alone can't fix it. Only the dinos that are in the water column floating around are going to be killed. Anything in or on the sand/rocks, etc. are safe. Then human relations dude Trigger or whatever asked the mods to police/remove the comments here because they were slanderous - apparently people questioning his claims is slander.

[GHill762]

every time I see the word dinoflagellates I sound it out and think dino-flatulence

 

[brandon429]

ha thats good cartoon for levity vs libel lol

 

regarding the dinos, my musings:

 

consider how motile they are> their micro physical inclusions are cilia iirc (if they are flagellated then whip me didnt bother to google) and plenty of them. they are communal on the closeup shots/slides... these threads that pop up over the years go from localized to whole tank overnite, or in two days, but fast.

 

perhaps the fastest biomass replicator we get? until something faster is shown Id vote yep. thats three reasons I dont see small controlled patches, not like cyano where patches can persist. im sure some dinos posts indicate that middle ground but I like not planning on it. invasive dinos and neomeris annulata are two of the top tank killers we ever get, imo. the ones that call for the quickest over action

 

so they'll start on someones sandbed or rock or frag inclusion, develop some bubbly strings all in a day or two, and if allowed to proceed further they can swamp the system and seem to stay for months. even in ultra low nutrient conditions...=challenge

 

something in that motility matters much im seeing, and thats why ones on the bed dont concern me much, the ones UV wont scrape up for us. i think they get into the uv anyway during a nightly motility phase, or the natural tank currents, but something im seeing doesnt keep them defined to one space unless they are on the decline.

 

 

For the few ive done with oversize uv, here and on the reefcentral peroxide thread, they were really well attacked and sustained with UV and that was considered against peroxide only treatments which were the totality of the threads. peroxide only actually didnt have that good of a battle % against dinos. but the uv/p sure does Im claiming.

 

What Steve did that was different from the masses for this tank was simply act. the usual is id, id, id and then start over or hate the tank for mos while working on it. By not changing the water, touted as a continuance cause, the dinos get that hands off thing they love

 

i disagree that changing water is bad. its because we are kicking up nonexported waste they can utilize...leaving them in the system is bad, imo, as a collector of after pics.

 

I cannot scientifically tie together why biomass restriction works for dinos, but in an artsy done by feel way it does and i think as long as Steve simply disallows this biomass, the times they go motile w be mitigated by uv, if zapped hard enough, and the times they are not he's not leaving them in the sandbed to come back. the few isolated ones in the sandbed not able to turn into a larger mass subside and die, ideally. now there's quite a reader base for this thread to see, can't wait for two mos follow up mark.

 

They are for sure classed as obligate hitchhikers on the continuum of things that invade reef tanks, and by that it means when killed truly they cannot come back unless reimported. Im not aware of a dormancy phase if their is one thats a confound to consider and again why i like UV as a backup even if for a few mos

 

Steve is using a multi pronged approach its hard to say how much the UV matters if any. IMO if you want to have hedge insurance against dinos go oversized UV because you can't hurt anything by doing it/ anything killed is stuff Id have already exported in my 100% water changes anyway and the feeding we do makes up for planktor zaps/

 

the top online reference I know for all things dino is Pants from here and RC> I wouldnt be surprised if he's studied them in all possible aspects of uv.

[jedimasterben]

consider how motile they are> their micro physical inclusions are cilia iirc (if they are flagellated then whip me didnt bother to google)

Why do you think they're called dinoflagellates?

[tibbsy07]

Yeah they are flagellated, and therefore motile.

[brandon429]

HA HA not dinocilliates hey the obvious is sometimes elusive thats dang funny catch lol

[Mojado]

If you are going to use UV to kill stuff, you have to have enough UV exposure. You either need a LOT of UV or you need slower flow through the UV unit to allow for lower intensity bulbs to have more penetrating effects. Either will work. UV causes DNA damage which will kill cells. That's it. Personally, I would recommend higher UV with regular water flow, but that's my own hypothesis. Either should technically work.

Assuming the UV light isn't orders of magnitude undersized, wouldn't a "smaller" light still get it done because of the tank turnover? Area under the curve kind of thing?

[Sancho]

Just thought I would share my experience with the Dino's. I wish I knew how I got rid of them but I really dont know. About a year now no dinos, knock on wood. My problem started January 2014. My tank was about 8 years old at that time. Looked on the forums and I tried all the different ways people recommend to get rid of them. I fought it for about 5 months. The only thing I did not try was a UV sterilizer. I would make some progress than It would come back. I did notice that water changes and manual removal in tank seemed to make it worse. As the coral would die off I would remove the rock and dip in a solution DI water and hydrogen peroxide, but doing that I noticed my tank would go through a mini cycle. I did however see good results with lights out for a few days and dosing 20ml of hydrogen peroxide daily. I dosed peroxide daily for about 3 months with minimal water changes. By now the only thing still thriving in my tank was kenya tree and my anemone. I wish it killed off the kenya trees. Thats the next pest I have to get rid of.

 

I had a new 90 that is going to replace that tank. So I kinda ignored the tank for a couple months. Kept the glass clean, fed the fish, emptied the skimmer cup, a water change, but gave up on the dinos. Then as quickly as they showed up they were gone. Well my 90 is still empty and I am starting to stock this tank again.

JUST BEFORE THE DINOS

THIS HAPPENED OVERNIGHT

THIS IS THE TANK TODAY. DINO FREE.