Why all the hate and bashing on the little fellas :-P

[amphipod]

My point is those high strung reefers you sometimes see roaming this site feel they are in some way supreme to newbies as if they never were a newbie before will be prone to bashing on innocent beginners, as if they don't make mistakes themselves. Then at times chase them from the hobby with insults and rudeness, sometimes very small amounts of rudeness at a given time, but to a newbie they see this hobby as impossibly difficult due to the braggers and downers holding their ground for no reason.

[Maniu]

Agree.

Oregon Reef crashed. From a stupid chain of decisions and actions. Not a noob.

Larger systems crash slower, that is known.

If you are saying that the number of experienced reefers with 40 gallon and larger tanks crashing is equal to the number of noobs with 10 gallon and smaller crashing. Anywhere close to equal, I disagree.

If you are implying that the number of inexperienced reefers with 40 gallons and larger tanks crashing is equal to inexperienced reefers with 10 gallons and smaller, I disagree with that as well.

I will say, I doubt seriously, that any real (not so called) experienced reefer doesn't have at least one crashed tank under their belt.

We are not comparing novice to expert but tank size right?

All things being equal as far as advancement and knowledge, crashes occure. True, larger systems are more stable and might recover quicker with less dramatic aftereffects.

Just witnessed mini crash in my favorite lfs. And they are running mega thousands gallon systems. Dozens of dead fish, stars and pissed off corals. It happens to the best.

My opinion is that nano or pico tanks are great beginner setup.

why? Because, if you are going to get your feet wet in reef and on the budget. Then there really aren't many other options. And if you are going to fail.... and it probably will happen at one point or the other.... lose isn't huge enough to throw a towel and just give up. We all went thruthis. Those who ddidn't are either lying of extreme lucky.

[Azedenkae]

I find it to be simple. Towards either extreme things are harder. Whilst I don't even know where to start when it comes to say, growing a pine tree, I don't know anything about bonsais either. But I've grown moderate-sized trees before.

 

Same with aquariums. The question is where in the 'middle' is easiest, and that is a matter of opinion. I don't find larger, or even medium-sized tanks to be easier. Neither do I find picos. I find nanos to be the easiest. Small enough that it is not a pain. Big enough that you don't get crazy fluctuations. Small enough too, that you can get away with lot's of equipments. You can also do emergency changes easier.

 

There was a point in time where I raised my alkalinity too high. I was able to quickly drive to the ocean with four fish bags, fill them up with saltwater, drove back and rescue the tank. It is 10 gallons. If it was 100 gallons, I would have drove to the ocean with the same four bags, drove home and place my live stock in said bags, then proceed to bring them to a random LFS close by and give up.

 

I also don't have to deal with the pain of skimmers, reactors or whatever. Top off is easy too, just a bit each day with a jug.

 

It's easy for me, and it is easy for beginners. Simple as that.

 

Again, because nanos I find to be the middleground. Larger or smaller, it is harder.

[jlangtree]

We are not comparing novice to ecperts but tank size right?

All things being equal as far as advancement and knowledge, crashes occure. True, larger systems are more stable and might recover quicker with less dramatic aftereffects.

Just witnessed mini crash in my favorite lfs. And they are running mega thousands gallon systems. Dozens of dead fish, stars and pissed off corals. It happens to the best.

My opinion is that nano or pico tanks are great beginner setup.

why? Because, if you are going to get your feet wet in reef and on the budget. Then there really aren't many other options. And if you are going to fail.... and it probably will happen at one point or the other.... lose isn't huge enough to throw a towel and just give up. We all went thruthis. Those who ddidn't are either lying of extreme lucky.

That was kind of my point in the beginning of this thread, I believe that a system around 5-10 Gal is a great beginner setup, as things are only as hard/expensive as you make it.

 

- Want Fish? Going to need a skimmer if its above what your tank can biologically consume.

- Want Substrate? Be prepared for the maintenance and required livestock to keep it.

- Want SPS? Need lighting that they require.

 

Etc. etc. and the list can go on and on. From what I see over here in my experience (limited I might add) people are being encouraged to go "Big" first up with the false sense of security that it is far easier to maintain/more forgiving stability wise.

 

I just think that its senseless to go out for your first tank and buy a 4x2x2 fully kitted out, only to find out that the tank lasts 4 months or don't have the time/money to maintain it.

[Thomas898]

IME its more just that people here are interested in larger species of marine fish rather than coral tanks. Most people with salt tanks I know keep tangs, morays, lionfish etc things not suitable for a nano. With the livestock being cheap and readily available in Australia it's easy to see why people concentrate more on larger set ups.

 

On the other hand, I have had everyone tell me I will need a bigger system to keep saltwater so I get what you mean there, but it's honestly just a lot of people not seeing successful nano tanks being run that contributes to the problem. Or a store just trying to get you to spend $$, which lets be honest, people here will waste it. I was heavily encouraged to buy every single piece of equipment imaginable to make a simple LPS set up 'easy' but like you said, it's pointless spending a fortune on your first set up just to have it potentially end in failure.

 

Knowledge is far more valuable than equipment in this hobby. Something a lot of Australian, and other worldwide reefers seem to forget.

[OpFor]

I have had two tanks for a little over a month now. A 10gal. that had been established for 5 yrs. before( but had been left to deteriorate, so I had some clean up work to do) and a 30gal. I started myself. I have a variety of coral in the 30gal. along with two surviving chromis(my rescued fuzzy lionfish ate the other two) two purple firefish(which I bought from the same tank together and they get along with each other fine, a royal gramma and a ruby red scooter. My lionfish is in his own separate box in the tank until I see hes eating regularly. The place I got him from takes horrible care of thier SW tanks.

I know thats probably alot for one 30gal, especially since Im so new to the hobby. But I love all my little dudes and dudettes and check levels of everything I have a test kit for once a week or more.

My nitrate levels in my 10gal. Spiked overnight it seems, and I need to do some water changes and maybe adjust the waterflow through my rocks? Once that gets under control, if I can catch my scooter, he will go into that one. Hes got a huge personality and I dont want him eaten.

Ive been doing water changes regularly, but my nitrates are still extremely high. I see what people meant when they told me it could hit the fan, wall and everything else so fast.

Nothing died because of it, I did the test and instantly got to work acclimating the corals to the 30gal. When I saw the levels. Talk about a rear puckering experience.

[Sunstar]

my 10 gallon is like yours. OpFor. 6 years old - ish, but was left to neglect for 2 years. I have been cleaning it well, even sifting the sand. Its pretty much up and running again.

 

My 1.5 when I had it running 3 years ago, teetered on a crash. I got a bottle of prime to neutralise the problem while I set about to fix it. Ithink I had some way off the charts nitrate readings. I want a 30 gallon or larger.

[Tinpanva]

How many beginner's nanos or picos make it to year 2?

 

Those that we see as TOTM etc. Are almost all from experienced reefers.

My 29 was my first tank, currently 2 years 8 months and made TOTM. So not all are super reefers.

[amphipod]

My first marine tank was harpactoids, and other plankton, and a little algae. Aim closer hit better. Funny I still have that tank, moved in a different container and left at the top of a fileing cabinet.

[OpFor]

I added some more live rock and have some before and after pics of my 10gal. but posting them here eludes me. I am not tech savvy enough I suppose.

 

Its looking good, and the purple whip (very small) is doing great despite the high levels. I got things taken care of I think, just need to wait now I suppose.

 

I think Im wearing out my welcome at two of the LFS here, keep showing up all the time and pestering them with questions.

[cindyp]

I don't think that was in question.

 

The question is should beginners be encouraged or discouraged from starting nano or pico reefs as their first tank?

 

i don't think it's for anyone to say. ha!

 

i think that as a noob, i look for advice and guidance.

i think that advising to research is pretty key.

 

i also think that the "small tanks are the least stable" is

honestly old hobby lore. as long as a person is willing

to do the upkeep, it's not the end all be all. of course,

it depends. i'm keeping mostly easy corals, and i'm happy

doing that. again, research.

 

i'm a total noob six months in with my 8g tank.

sure, i've made some noob mistakes and had

minor disasters, but nothing's crashed either.

 

can i make one year? i think so. two years? maybe.

but i might be expanding before then to a 12 or 14g,

if i'm lucky.

 

there will always be arseholes in any community and i don't

buy into flaming or being rude and mean to anyone,

which seems too easy to do online these days. there

is a clear difference in offering advice and flaming someone.

[farkwar]

i don't think it's for anyone to say. ha!

 

 

I disagree entirely.

 

If we don't say, someone else not us WILL.

 

When I started reefing, collectors were still using dynamite and cyanide to collect coral and fish.

 

Thankfully those abominable practices are virtually unheard of. The reefing community itself helped stop that. We now have maricultured and aquacultured resources, many of us share or buy frags grown from colonies in our homes and garages. And for the most part we have sustainable collection practices, now.

 

We now are being faced with bureaucrats in $100 suits deciding which fish or corals we may own. People with degrees. But no minds, deciding for us.

 

I am no knee jerk bleeding heart animal rightist;, animals don't have rights, and shouldn't have them.

 

But I do believe we have stewardship, custodial, husbandry,and conservation duties to animals. We do not need to be treating them shabbily. At the very least we shouldn't be treating them worse than how nature or other animals treat them.

 

Many of these animals are sentient, or rare in the case of coral; so if your little noob box'o death is containing say algae and sponges, go for it, do what what you will. But if your first time box is likely to turn into a stinking box of coral fish gumbo in six months because it's too small to be stable for you to handle, we have an obligation, a duty, to say something about it.

 

If we don't, someone not us, will. And they will do it by law, and by force; at that point you will have no say about it.

[farkwar]

My 29 was my first tank, currently 2 years 8 months and made TOTM. So not all are super reefers.

Beautiful little tank.

 

Evidence of my point that TOTM goals are attainable. And should be the goals we all strive for and encourage beginners to strive for.

[cindyp]

I disagree entirely.

If we don't say, someone else not us WILL.

When I started reefing, collectors were still using dynamite and cyanide to collect coral and fish.

Thankfully those abominable practices are virtually unheard of. The reefing community itself helped stop that. We now have maricultured and aquacultured resources, many of us share or buy frags grown from colonies in our homes and garages. And for the most part we have sustainable collection practices, now.

We now are being faced with bureaucrats in $100 suits deciding which fish or corals we may own. People with degrees. But no minds, deciding for us.

I am no knee jerk bleeding heart animal rightist;, animals don't have rights, and shouldn't have them.

But I do believe we have stewardship, custodial, husbandry,and conservation duties to animals. We do not need to be treating them shabbily. At the very least we shouldn't be treating them worse than how nature or other animals treat them.

Most of these animals are sentient, so if your little noob box'o death is containing say algae and sponges, go for it, do what what you will. But if your first time box is likely to turn into a stinking box of coral fish gumbo in six months because it's too small to be stable for you to handle, we have an obligation, a duty, to say something about it.

If we don't, someone not us, will. And they will do it by law, and by force; at that point you will have no say about it.

i don't disagree. i don't think anything warrants

a flame war. if you lose your cool--step away. there

will always be noobs that won't listen or have to

learn the hard way. it is what it is. most hobbyists

likely not even on the forums.

 

personalities differ. i think the best way is to

set example and kindly guide.

let's just say i would never have

started in the hobby at all if it weren't

for the ability to do a very small tank.

it is manageable to me, and i do weekly

water changes and clean weekly as well.

i enjoy it.

[farkwar]

Cindy,

 

Would you like your little 8 gallon to be a featured tank somewhere in a year or 2 or 3 from now, for being just awesome?

 

I doubt you don't.

 

So, if so, you should be the type of beginner to be encouraged.

And I'm sure you will pass on your experiences and mistakes (so others can learn from them), along the way.

[HIppieRose]

I priced converting my large freshwater tanks. A 60, 75 and my 150 and I just can't see spending that much money. My nano fits my budget and my space.

[cindyp]

Cindy,

 

Would you like your little 8 gallon to be a featured tank somewhere in a year or 2 or 3 from now, for being just awesome?

 

I doubt you don't.

 

So, if so, you should be the type of beginner to be encouraged.

And I'm sure you will pass on your experiences and mistakes (so others can learn from them), along the way.

 

um. i don't care if my tank is featured anywhere.

 

hahahaha!

 

i do this all for myself. and it makes me happy.

and i love commiserating and sharing on the forums

with like minded people.

 

this is what i mean when i say people are different.

but yes, when i poke out, i sometimes do share my

experience with other noobs who might ask questions.

I priced converting my large freshwater tanks. A 60, 75 and my 150 and I just can't see spending that much money. My nano fits my budget and my space.

 

space was a big deal for me too!

 

and physically, the large tanks are just beyond what

i can do. my hub is not interested, and i might be able

to ask him into hauling large amounts of water for me,

but i'd rather not. i want to be able to take care of the

tank myself! and i have.

[lkoechle]

Personally, I think nanos are perfect for beginners. There is such a steep learning curve with larger systems for someone just jumping in. I have so much equipment on my 85 that I'm thankful for my nano and pico easing me in and allowing me to learn what's what and why. (just try to explain what a protein skimmer is to someone not in the hobby, I dare you). It allowed to me see why certain pieces of equipment existed, what a sump was, what a refugium was, and allowed me to add those pieces at my own pace and see how they worked without the instant neccessity of everything on a large system (because you have to plan your sump before you install it). I also think experiencing crashes are important. If you never have a crash, how can you say you're an expert at anything? No one is instantly perfect. I ride horses, and if anyone ever says to me that they ride and claim they have never fallen, they are either A: lying or B: not very good or experienced. Everyone has fallen. All experienced equestrians have fallen, all great equestrians have fallen. You need to fall to be become better, you need to make mistakes to learn how to deal with adversity. A successful large reef keeper, does not mean a successful nano keeper, however, I do believe the opposite is true due to the smaller margin of error and small catastrophes that frequently occur.

 

So I think smaller systems with a smaller margin of error is perfect for the beginner because it teaches you so much, so fast, and allows you to more accurately decide if you're really willing to put in the money and work for a larger system. I would not have invested 5k into my 85 without my 20. I don't think my nanos would be considered successes (unless you just count them being habitable for 1 year + a success) and I definitely think my larger tank is way easier, but I am thankful for my nano first so I am aware of the numerous ways it can go wrong and how to address those issues before experiencing that in a 5k investment.

[LongDoggy]

Nano envy...

[Schnecke]

I own the smallest salt water tank in my entire family and it's done the best. 16 Gallon Display plus sump. So it's about 25 Gallons all up now (100 Litres,) with the new sump going in. My mothers old tank (she sold it as it was too much up-keep) was 100 Gallons (400 Litres) and my brothers system was 300 Gallons (About 1200 Litres) but he has since downsized to a shallow 8 footer that comes in about 200 Gallons (800 Litres.)

 

I have learned a LOT from people with large systems, seeing and hearing about them making BIG mistakes. Many of those big mistakes (here in Australia) is due to cheap, rubbish hardware that is marketed to new reefers. They work out what they can afford and try to get the BIGGEST they can for that money, instead of spending more money on better quality, smaller systems.

 

My family members have invested in good hardware for their larger systems and even yet, my mother and brother have had several crashes - losing fish and coral in the process, with my mother selling on and my brothers system recovering from a crash.

 

Yes, things happen more slowly in a larger system, but I think that can make you complacent sometimes - People with large systems get lazy, because they think that they can, but when a big system crashes, it can cost you thousands of dollars worth of inhabitants.

 

I would ALWAYS recommend a nano sized tank to someone looking at getting into Salt water, and I do let people know that investing in good hardware and investing time to research, is key to success. Understanding why you do something, instead of following the sometimes bad advise of the sales person (private or shopfront) trying to make a buck.

 

Most large systems I've seen are ugly, in all honesty. But a good one, well, I bow down to it. But there is a misconception among new reefers who opt for a large system that it's going to look like "the tank I saw on youtube" in a year, with little money invested.

 

I've lost count of the number of very large systems I see for sale, compared to smaller set ups. I think that tells me something also. There are a lot of people who give up on the overwhelming task of a big system, as it's a lot to take on when you are new to the hobby.

[cindyp]

I own the smallest salt water tank in my entire family and it's done the best. 16 Gallon Display plus sump. So it's about 25 Gallons all up now (100 Litres,) with the new sump going in. My mothers old tank (she sold it as it was too much up-keep) was 100 Gallons (400 Litres) and my brothers system was 300 Gallons (About 1200 Litres) but he has since downsized to a shallow 8 footer that comes in about 200 Gallons (800 Litres.)

 

I have learned a LOT from people with large systems, seeing and hearing about them making BIG mistakes. Many of those big mistakes (here in Australia) is due to cheap, rubbish hardware that is marketed to new reefers. They work out what they can afford and try to get the BIGGEST they can for that money, instead of spending more money on better quality, smaller systems.

 

My family members have invested in good hardware for their larger systems and even yet, my mother and brother have had several crashes - losing fish and coral in the process, with my mother selling on and my brothers system recovering from a crash.

 

Yes, things happen more slowly in a larger system, but I think that can make you complacent sometimes - People with large systems get lazy, because they think that they can, but when a big system crashes, it can cost you thousands of dollars worth of inhabitants.

 

I would ALWAYS recommend a nano sized tank to someone looking at getting into Salt water, and I do let people know that investing in good hardware and investing time to research, is key to success. Understanding why you do something, instead of following the sometimes bad advise of the sales person (private or shopfront) trying to make a buck.

 

Most large systems I've seen are ugly, in all honesty. But a good one, well, I bow down to it. But there is a misconception among new reefers who opt for a large system that it's going to look like "the tank I saw on youtube" in a year, with little money invested.

 

I've lost count of the number of very large systems I see for sale, compared to smaller set ups. I think that tells me something also. There are a lot of people who give up on the overwhelming task of a big system, as it's a lot to take on when you are new to the hobby.

 

i love your tank! *low whistle*

 

i think for any noob who is willing to:

 

1. research

2. upkeep and maintain weekly

 

nanos are totally viable, for certain.

 

and honestly, for bigger systems, the research

is also imperative.

 

it is an expensive hobby, and quite intimidating.

 

i was talking to a bookseller friend who has a fresh

water and he was so impressed i had a small nano.

and i told him it was't *that* hard, as long as you

learned and did the work. (i mean, i've got a tank

of shrooms for crying out loud. ) but he said

he was totally intimidated.

 

he couldn't afford a large system, and he bought

into the "small salt water tanks are the HARDEST

to keep" myth. and i was like, if i can do it, anyone

can do it.

 

(well, anyone who is willing to do the work.)

 

i am also NOT diy, that holds absolutely no appeal

to me, so i love the AIO systems you can get with

smaller tanks.

 

my dreaming "big" is to go 12g. 14g if i'm feeling, like,

totally crazy.

[Mkus]

I like my tank 14 biocube 7 years and no crashes just keep up with water changes..

[CatfishSoupFTW]

I think people fail at setting up any sized tank due to the required commitment. Youll learn some short cuts as you progress, but like with anything, you gotta know how to do it right. When i first started reefing, despite my years in FW, a lot of people said go large. 40 gallons minimum or more. Almost did it, but decided its too much. It gets expensive, and even the nano im running now is pricy. I have seen plenty of large tanks fail as well. More water means you have more time to mess up, but it doesnt make it easier.

 

if anything, youll just end up with a much larger fail. I wouldnt reccommend a 2 gallon pico to a newbie, but wouldnt recommend a 100 gallons either. 10 -30 is a nice spot I feel. youll just have to remember, when you catch the bug, dont overstock!

[Nano sapiens]

my dreaming "big" is to go 12g. 14g if i'm feeling, like,

totally crazy.

 

Wow, aiming for the 'big leagues', there

 

I like my tank 14 biocube 7 years and no crashes just keep up with water changes..

 

 

Congrats on 7 years!

[lkoechle]

 

i love your tank! *low whistle*

 

i think for any noob who is willing to:

 

1. research

2. upkeep and maintain weekly

 

nanos are totally viable, for certain.

 

and honestly, for bigger systems, the research

is also imperative.

 

it is an expensive hobby, and quite intimidating.

 

i was talking to a bookseller friend who has a fresh

water and he was so impressed i had a small nano.

and i told him it was't *that* hard, as long as you

learned and did the work. (i mean, i've got a tank

of shrooms for crying out loud. ) but he said

he was totally intimidated.

 

he couldn't afford a large system, and he bought

into the "small salt water tanks are the HARDEST

to keep" myth. and i was like, if i can do it, anyone

can do it.

 

(well, anyone who is willing to do the work.)

 

i am also NOT diy, that holds absolutely no appeal

to me, so i love the AIO systems you can get with

smaller tanks.

 

my dreaming "big" is to go 12g. 14g if i'm feeling, like,

totally crazy.

 

One of my freshwater friends is intimidated by salt water and asked what my fish keeping experience was before doing my 20. I blushed and said "A betta fish in a tiny bowl with no filter, no air movement, no heater, and I change the water when it turned green. Trust me, if I can do it, so can you! And because of it, my current betta now lives in a warm 4 gallon AIO" The things we learn... lol