Controversial Fish Care. Ethics of fish keeping and tank sizes.

[Chris!]

My wife asked me if we lived in Hawaii (or some other tropical island with coral reefs), if I would still want to keep an aquarium. I thought about it, and my answer would be YES.

 

An addict doesn't have to think about that answer..... but a real junkies wife also already knows the answer without asking

[cthumphr]

An addict doesn't have to think about that answer..... but a real junkies wife also already knows the answer without asking

 

Well put.

 

I guess I thought about it because I've never lived in a place where I could snorkel and see coral reefs on a daily basis. I wondered if that would change things. But then I thought about the pumps, lighting, plumbing, chemistry, and the art that is having an aquarium, and I know I couldn't give that up. I enjoy the process as much as the end result. Water changes are part of my life, as much of a pain as they can be, if I go a couple weeks without doing one, I start to get that itch.

 

I remember when I was a kid thinking I didn't get art. I didn't have an appreciation for paintings. I liked photography, but "art" was sort of lost on me. But I appreciated and loved a good fish tank. Seeing today's planted ADA tanks and the nano reefs here, really inspire me. They are beautiful. And if they can be made in an environmentally friendly way, then even better.

 

It would be cool if we had a category for tanks that were made environmentally responsible. LIke a TOTM but in a sub-category that celebrated not only the visual beauty of the tank, but HOW it was put together. Aquacultured fish, aquacultured live rock or dry rock, maybe frags that were truly 2nd generation frags, inverts that were captive hatched.

 

I think if we appreciated and celebrated that sort of thing in our hobby more it would catch on, and we'd be speaking with our dollars. We would be buying more aquacultured stuff. The market would change and maybe, just maybe, aquarists could then say we are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

[Chris!]

Well put.

 

I guess I thought about it because I've never lived in a place where I could snorkel and see coral reefs on a daily basis. I wondered if that would change things. But then I thought about the pumps, lighting, plumbing, chemistry, and the art that is having an aquarium, and I know I couldn't give that up. I enjoy the process as much as the end result. Water changes are part of my life, as much of a pain as they can be, if I go a couple weeks without doing one, I start to get that itch.

 

Oh I understand, but for me it'd be an awesome private collecting spot for my tank as well as a cool place to go spend my days.... tank lights would definitely be set to run in the evening/ night

 

I remember when I was a kid thinking I didn't get art. I didn't have an appreciation for paintings. I liked photography, but "art" was sort of lost on me. But I appreciated and loved a good fish tank. Seeing today's planted ADA tanks and the nano reefs here, really inspire me. They are beautiful. And if they can be made in an environmentally friendly way, then even better.

 

I don't really see most of todays collection methods as being un-environmentally friendly. Many fish are hand caught, cyanide is only used by the least favorable collectors and not nearly as often as it once was, many corals are "fragged" in the ocean into smaller pieces leaving some behind to regrow rather then removing entire colonies, and there are mariculture (basically aquaculture but still in the ocean) operations all over. More energy efficent pumps and lights are popular as well with aquarists too!

 

It would be cool if we had a category for tanks that were made environmentally responsible. LIke a TOTM but in a sub-category that celebrated not only the visual beauty of the tank, but HOW it was put together. Aquacultured fish, aquacultured live rock or dry rock, maybe frags that were truly 2nd generation frags, inverts that were captive hatched.

 

I think if we appreciated and celebrated that sort of thing in our hobby more it would catch on, and we'd be speaking with our dollars. We would be buying more aquacultured stuff. The market would change and maybe, just maybe, aquarists could then say we are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

 

I think aquaculture is great and definitely encourage it and feel it is important to the hobby (and an important learning step in the hobby) and who knows someday maybe we could help restock the oceans (although honestly not likely on many levels but its a great thought...) or atleast keep each others tanks thriving.... but I also believe that bringing in new wild fish and corals is also very important. New fish and corals with different care needs also helps us learn new care techniques and increase our knowledge about these beautiful animals.... I know several people that started out around reef tanks as kids/ youth that have become marine biologist, and were inspired and intrigued by these crazy little glass boxes full of color. There are schools with reef tanks even in elementary, do we want to limit what our youth could access even more then they already are..... there is a reason why all the data groups that fight the hobby and want to "shut us down" all use OLDDDDD data, and it is because we have made vast improvements in the ways we care for these animals and if they showed current stats it'd be obvious we aren't the problem

 

Also, from a personal level, I enjoy seeing new finds, different colors and types that are coming out now that weren't around 10 yrs ago and I don't wanna miss out on whats still out there (with sustainable numbers) in the next 10+ yrs

 

 

Many people don't know or understand but coral and I believe most fish even are regulated internationally through CITES permits which limits collection #'s to prevent over collection. Items taken from local oceans require collections or fishing permits/ licenses as well. Its not like anyone can legally just go out and collect as much as their little heart desires Yes some animals run into #'s problems even with this in place because of other things as well (nonnative species, chemical spills, environment changes, naturally occuring death/ predators, tourism, etc.) but even the most irresponsible reefer contributes probably the smallest portion of oceanic loss there is.

[Halo_003]

Oh I understand, but for me it'd be an awesome private collecting spot for my tank as well as a cool place to go spend my days.... tank lights would definitely be set to run in the evening/ night

 

 

I don't really see most of todays collection methods as being un-environmentally friendly. Many fish are hand caught, cyanide is only used by the least favorable collectors and not nearly as often as it once was, many corals are "fragged" in the ocean into smaller pieces leaving some behind to regrow rather then removing entire colonies, and there are mariculture (basically aquaculture but still in the ocean) operations all over. More energy efficent pumps and lights are popular as well with aquarists too!

 

 

I think aquaculture is great and definitely encourage it and feel it is important to the hobby (and an important learning step in the hobby) and who knows someday maybe we could help restock the oceans (although honestly not likely on many levels but its a great thought...) or atleast keep each others tanks thriving.... but I also believe that bringing in new wild fish and corals is also very important. New fish and corals with different care needs also helps us learn new care techniques and increase our knowledge about these beautiful animals.... I know several people that started out around reef tanks as kids/ youth that have become marine biologist, and were inspired and intrigued by these crazy little glass boxes full of color. There are schools with reef tanks even in elementary, do we want to limit what our youth could access even more then they already are..... there is a reason why all the data groups that fight the hobby and want to "shut us down" all use OLDDDDD data, and it is because we have made vast improvements in the ways we care for these animals and if they showed current stats it'd be obvious we aren't the problem

 

Also, from a personal level, I enjoy seeing new finds, different colors and types that are coming out now that weren't around 10 yrs ago and I don't wanna miss out on whats still out there (with sustainable numbers) in the next 10+ yrs

 

 

Many people don't know or understand but coral and I believe most fish even are regulated internationally through CITES permits which limits collection #'s to prevent over collection. Items taken from local oceans require collections or fishing permits/ licenses as well. Its not like anyone can legally just go out and collect as much as their little heart desires Yes some animals run into #'s problems even with this in place because of other things as well (nonnative species, chemical spills, environment changes, naturally occuring death/ predators, tourism, etc.) but even the most irresponsible reefer contributes probably the smallest portion of oceanic loss there is.

Very well said.

[farkwar]

When you appreciate the way most marine fish live their lives, you realize that keeping them in small glass boxes is selfish.

The vastest of majorities of all fishes, live out the largest portion of their immensely short lives in the gut of another fish.

 

There's a reason fish lay hundreds and thousands of eggs. Because fully formed swimming fry are food for other fish, many times for mom and pop fishes.

 

The large adult fish you see snorkling, every molecule of their being came from eating other fish. And they represent one part per thousand or one part per million.

 

When viewed in a realistic real world way, keeping the vastly small percentage of fish (of every human reef or marine hobbyist) that humans do keep, is RESPITE from the brutal painful existence they live in the oceans.

 

Anthropomorphizing clownfish(and originally deer and skunks) to sell popcorn and toys is one thing(mere exploitation), believing it is true is beyond naive and gullible. It makes you a silly sucker, not selfish.

 

I forget, did I already post this in this thread?

[tibbsy07]

I think one of the problems in this kind of discussion is the "Well, there are worse things..." mentality. Sure there are. That doesn't negate any negative effects we have, though. Getting shot with a shotgun is worse than getting stabbed, but if both of those were inflicted upon you, you'd still have both and both would still have their respective effect, requiring medical attention. That is a poor argument for justification, in my opinion, "Well X is worse than Y, so I can do Y and still feel ok." I'm not saying that our hobby is BAD, far from it, but saying that the negative impact of our hobby is somehow negligible or doesn't count because other things are worse is incorrect. Other industries (fishing, etc.) have taken steps to ensure the sustainability of their practice - not only for the wildlife, but for their own jobs. Why shouldn't we? Especially considering the way things are going. If we DON'T, our hobby will be lost. There really isn't any other option.

[Chris!]

Why shouldn't we? Especially considering the way things are going. If we DON'T, our hobby will be lost. There really isn't any other option.

 

We already do have things in place to ensure sustainability.... there are federal and international guidelines that dictate what, and how many can and cannot be harvested, and we practice aquaculture and captive breeding of the species we can and are making great achievements in advancing what is possible with captive breeding and aquaculture for that matter (it wasn't that long ago people considered acropora for instance to be impossible to keep, yet we grow, frag, trade and sell it quite regularly now).... last I checked most fishermen aren't collecting fish to try to breed to continue their business. Oil tankers and tourists certainly aren't doing shit to protect reefs either they just take, walk on, crash through with no real thought to the life in the sea

 

 

There are hobby related programs that put coral back in the sea I believe, and if I recall not long ago I heard about a program that was attempting to breeding cardinals to put back in the wild as well.

[tibbsy07]

We already do have things in place to ensure sustainability.... there are federal and international guidelines that dictate what can and cannot be harvested, and we practice aquaculture and captive breeding of the species we can and are making great achievements in advancing what is possible with captive breeding.... last I checked most fishermen aren't collecting fish to try to breed to continue their business

Sure, I was just pointing out a flaw in many of the arguments/opinions in this thread, that just because something is worse for the environment, doesn't mean that something else doesn't still have a negative impact.

 

We have mandates and all kinds of stuff that regulate what we can do - here in the US. UK, Australia, etc. probably have regulations, too. But I'd be willing to bet that many places where a lot of livestock comes from, the regulations aren't really in place, or they aren't adhered to/enforced. We are doing a lot, but there is still a long way to go. Our hobby has a finite limit, and it's fast approaching, not due to our hobby, but the same outcome is likely, nonetheless. If we don't continue to strive for aquaculture expansions and innovations, the hobby is doomed.

[atrox]

This thread is still going?

Lmao we'll said.

[Chris!]

Sure, I was just pointing out a flaw in many of the arguments/opinions in this thread, that just because something is worse for the environment, doesn't mean that something else doesn't still have a negative impact.

 

I don't think anyone said we don't have any impact at all, that would be silly. In comparison we have a tiny impact tho, and are the only ones that really could have any shot at doing shit to restock the reefs if need be. I doubt the oil industry for example has the know how to grow out and replenish acropora, zoanthids, favias, clownfish, cardinals, tangs, angels etc, etc, etc..... Sure they may have the money to buy from us to do so but that'd be about the extent they could take it lol

 

We have mandates and all kinds of stuff that regulate what we can do - here in the US. UK, Australia, etc. probably have regulations, too. But I'd be willing to bet that many places where a lot of livestock comes from, the regulations aren't really in place, or they aren't adhered to/enforced. We are doing a lot, but there is still a long way to go. Our hobby has a finite limit, and it's fast approaching, not due to our hobby, but the same outcome is likely, nonetheless. If we don't continue to strive for aquaculture expansions and innovations, the hobby is doomed.

 

Actually alot of the small villages where our little pretties come from have some fairly strict regulations/ rules in place and have things to protect themselves and their industries better then you would think.... The Red Sea for instance closes exportation quite regularly to prevent over collection. And in some places only residents are allowed to bring coral to the surface, and only certain types, and even colors at certain times. They may be third world and not have the best care or even equipment but they aren't all stupid either. The reefs are their way of life and a large chunk of the economy for many of the small villages our fish and coral come from.

 

But yes, they do follow the CITES regulations, atleast in countries that take part in CITES..... here is the list which includes most, if not all of the major players for both importation and exportation of sea life.... http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/alphabet.php

[tibbsy07]

But yes, they do follow the CITES regulations, atleast in countries that take part in CITES..... here is the list which includes most, if not all of the major players for both importation and exportation of sea life.... http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/alphabet.php

Good info!

[Chris!]

Good info!

 

We have alot more in place and regulating us and what we can take from the oceans then most think. No one is out there just having a field day.

 

 

I've looked into becoming a wholesaler/ direct importer somewhat in the past, and there is alot more to it then just callin up a buddy in Australia and sayin hey ship me 1000 boxes of the craziest shit you can find in the water.

[cthumphr]

The vastest of majorities of all fishes, live out the largest portion of their immensely short lives in the gut of another fish.

 

There's a reason fish lay hundreds and thousands of eggs. Because fully formed swimming fry are food for other fish, many times for mom and pop fishes.

 

The large adult fish you see snorkling, every molecule of their being came from eating other fish. And they represent one part per thousand or one part per million.

 

When viewed in a realistic real world way, keeping the vastly small percentage of fish (of every human reef or marine hobbyist) that humans do keep, is RESPITE from the brutal painful existence they live in the oceans.

 

Anthropomorphizing clownfish(and originally deer and skunks) to sell popcorn and toys is one thing(mere exploitation), believing it is true is beyond naive and gullible. It makes you a silly sucker, not selfish.

 

I forget, did I already post this in this thread?

 

At the end of the day though, I think the greatest respect we can show wild animals like fish large and small is to let them be themselves. When you take certain species out of their habitats they cease to function as they do in the wild, and in essence they become something different. I'm not anthropomorphizing when I say that there is an essence to being a tang, clownfish, or triggerfish. We see this very clearly with larger animals, because the results of putting a large fish (or whale) in an aquarium are obvious. With smaller ornamental fish though the results of captivity are more subtle. And most people have never seen these fish in the wild anyway so they don't know how they live their lives. I hear you that most are destine to be a part of the food chain, but at least they lived the way they are meant to - dictated by millions of years of evolution. When we play God and drop them in our little aquatic scenes we force them into a life they weren't meant for. Some smaller fish adapt quite readily to captivity and others don't. This hobby has been going on now long enough that we should try to steer towards the fish are least impacted by the confines of aquarium life. We can all name species that are "jumpers" or "pacers" or "poor eaters" etc, that really don't adapt to aquarium life. I believe that in the wild species live in a spatial relationship that they are comfortable with and in an aquarium we rob them of that.

 

At the end of the day my only point in all of this is we can do better. I've killed a lot of fish in my day. Some died because of my mistakes as an aquarist, other died because of power outages and things like that. And I'm sure in the ocean they would have gotten eaten by a grouper anyway, but while they were under my care, were they able to be a (insert species name here)? The answer is no. They weren't. I starting keeping fish when I was young and while I read every fish book I could find, I just didn't know then what I know now. I feel bad for what I put those fish through. And that experience is why I guess I am typing now.

 

I do think keeping fish is selfish. I think some fish are less impacted by aquariums, but I think at the end of the day, we can't give them what they were designed for.

[tibbsy07]

We have alot more in place and regulating us and what we can take from the oceans then most think. No one is out there just having a field day.

 

 

I've looked into becoming a wholesaler/ direct importer somewhat in the past, and there is alot more to it then just callin up a buddy in Australia and sayin hey ship me 1000 boxes of the craziest shit you can find in the water.

Sure, but again, regulations exist, but it doesn't mean everyone follows them. I'd say we all do a pretty good job at making sure what we take is sustainable and ethical, if for no other reason than wanting to have healthy livestock in our tanks and to have that cool fish that no one else has. As long as we keep that up and we hobbyists keep demanding that the companies we purchase from are obeying all regulations or going above and beyond, we'll be good. It's when we start to slip that problems arise.

[Chris!]

Sure, but again, regulations exist, but it doesn't mean everyone follows them. I'd say we all do a pretty good job at making sure what we take is sustainable and ethical, if for no other reason than wanting to have healthy livestock in our tanks and to have that cool fish that no one else has. As long as we keep that up and we hobbyists keep demanding that the companies we purchase from are obeying all regulations or going above and beyond, we'll be good. It's when we start to slip that problems arise.

 

Well yeah, but that goes with anything. If your going to say we shouldn't do things because regulations exist but not everyone follows them so we shouldn't do things that are regulated.....I know thats not entirely what your saying but it does kinda seem to hint towards that..... we should all just kill ourselves now because EVERYTHING is regulated and not everyone follows it all lol

 

The hobby isn't in as much trouble from a sustainability stand point as many media outlets, and anti-aquatic hobby supporters would have you think

 

 

 

FWIW, here is a little article about Hawaii and their recently renovated laws/ regulations and limits as well (and you can click the white list link and see a little more indepth if you'd like)......

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/12/18/new-rules-for-hawaiis-biggest-aq-fishery/

[HVani]

I do think keeping fish is selfish. I think some fish are less impacted by aquariums, but I think at the end of the day, we can't give them what they were designed for.

 

 

I dunno I feel this is over simplified. While I agree some fish are best left in the ocean, many do quite well in the aquarium. That's not even counting the captive bred fish. My clowns have never even seen the ocean and live in a anemone that is a clone of a clone. They are simple creatures that don't even realize they are missing anything. In fact that goes for 90% of fish out there. These are simple animals that don't get caught up thinking about what it would be like to be in the ocean. You can't compare a whale and a tang. They are just not on the same cognitive level.

 

I'm not justifying taking fish from the ocean. I'll admit I do this salt water thing for me and my enjoyment. I also am not saying fish are disposable, they are a life just the same. But they are not whales or people. They are very instinct driven and most adapt very well to tank life and seem to thrive.

[Chris!]

One last thing I would like to point out tho too is that not all regulation to protect the animals is a good thing.... The ESA's that are in the works could make it illegal to even own not to mention sell or trade certain animals (corals, and even clownfish) on the lists. If we can't own them (even though we already do) how are we supposed to 1. dispose of them, will they just make us throw them out, donate them to public aquariums, or is someone going to return them to their proper origin in the ocean (yeah right). And 2. how are we supposed to propagate and make them a sustainable life form for the hobby (and even possible restocking of the ocean) if we can no longer own them? Because of the wording of the laws they actually could do more damage and cause more death then good. Now if they change them and say hey these things are already in the hobby and thats fine continue to grow propagate and keep these alive, but you can't take any more of these types from the ocean they have poor #s in the wild I am 1000% with that.... provided they really do have lower numbers or are reaching a point where they may not be sustainable if we continue at the pace we are with them.

[tibbsy07]

Well yeah, but that goes with anything. If your going to say we shouldn't do things because regulations exist but not everyone follows them so we shouldn't do things that are regulated.....I know thats not entirely what your saying but it does kinda seem to hint towards that..... we should all just kill ourselves now because EVERYTHING is regulated and not everyone follows it all lol

 

The hobby isn't in as much trouble from a sustainability stand point as many media outlets, and anti-aquatic hobby supporters would have you think

 

 

 

FWIW, here is a little article about Hawaii and their recently renovated laws/ regulations and limits as well (and you can click the white list link and see a little more indepth if you'd like)......

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/12/18/new-rules-for-hawaiis-biggest-aq-fishery/

Nah, what I'm saying is that we just have to make sure we stay honest. We are, but we need to stay that way. No cutting corners.

 

As far as sustainability - I'm not concerned what the media thinks, or what PETA thinks. I'm concerned about the overall health of the oceans and the life within. The overall trend of the ocean's current life is a downward slope. It's not good. If we plan on keeping this hobby going, we need to start shifting away from maricultured livestock and into aquacultured livestock. Otherwise, we'll eventually lose out on what we consider a hobby. It'll all go away.

[Chris!]

As far as sustainability - I'm not concerned what the media thinks, or what PETA thinks. I'm concerned about the overall health of the oceans and the life within. The overall trend of the ocean's current life is a downward slope. It's not good. If we plan on keeping this hobby going, we need to start shifting away from maricultured livestock and into aquacultured livestock. Otherwise, we'll eventually lose out on what we consider a hobby. It'll all go away.

 

Clearly you do otherwise you would understand that the hobby's most likely demise is being shut down by groups lobbying against us long before we run out of fish and coral to take.... Read through all the hawaii article, more fish then ever, yet tightening the reigns because the tourists camps think we are taking all the fish LOL

[tibbsy07]

Clearly you do otherwise you would understand that the hobby's most likely demise is being shut down by groups lobbying against us long before we run out of fish and coral to take.... Read through all the hawaii article, more fish then ever, yet tightening the reigns because the tourists camps think we are taking all the fish LOL

Nah, you're missing my point, dude. You aren't reading my posts, apparently. I'm not talking about overfishing/overharvesting. I'm talking about death. The oceans are DYING. As in, dead, gone, kaput, etc. If we don't start making the switch more towards aquaculture and away from mariculture, it won't matter what PETA or anyone else thinks. We won't have anything to harvest, and we won't have the aquaculturing infrastructure to continue our hobby beyond clownfish and some basic corals. Certain places have more fish, sure. Most places do not. The overall reef system of the world is declining. The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority reports on the health of the reef every few years. This year's update says that despite conservation efforts, the reef is declining and the outlook is grim. It's all over (Edit: It's all over the ocean, not just GBR)

[kimberbee]

The oceans are DYING. As in, dead, gone, kaput, etc.

 

This year's update says that despite conservation efforts, the reef is declining and the outlook is grim. It's all over.

 

Thisssss!

 

I'm glad I got involved when I did...

[Chris!]

Nah, you're missing my point, dude. You aren't reading my posts, apparently. I'm not talking about overfishing/overharvesting. I'm talking about death. The oceans are DYING. As in, dead, gone, kaput, etc. If we don't start making the switch more towards aquaculture and away from mariculture, it won't matter what PETA or anyone else thinks. We won't have anything to harvest, and we won't have the aquaculturing infrastructure to continue our hobby beyond clownfish and some basic corals. Certain places have more fish, sure. Most places do not. The overall reef system of the world is declining. The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority reports on the health of the reef every few years. This year's update says that despite conservation efforts, the reef is declining and the outlook is grim. It's all over.

 

Your missing my point, dude. Go back and read my post I didn't say overharvesting or overfishing was going to be the cause of why we would run out of fish.... but we are still far more likely to get shut down then we are to run out of fish (for any reason, including death.... unless some dipshit nukes the world and we all die). My reference to the Hawaii situation was merely to show that even in areas that have plenty of fish they are passing regulations to tighten what we can and cannot take because happy feet want more shit to step on and smash and are lobbying stronger, and getting the word out that we are bad more then the hobby is saying hey look we just bred another type of fish!!!

 

 

If all the fish and the coral in all the oceans died tomorrow the hobby could continue, and in theory help rebuild.... if people against the hobby get their way, the hobby will be banned and if the oceans died the next day it'd all be lost because it would be illegal to own the animals we keep, breed and aquaculture successfully!

[cthumphr]

I dunno I feel this is over simplified. While I agree some fish are best left in the ocean, many do quite well in the aquarium. That's not even counting the captive bred fish. My clowns have never even seen the ocean and live in a anemone that is a clone of a clone. They are simple creatures that don't even realize they are missing anything. In fact that goes for 90% of fish out there. These are simple animals that don't get caught up thinking about what it would be like to be in the ocean. You can't compare a whale and a tang. They are just not on the same cognitive level.

 

I'm not justifying taking fish from the ocean. I'll admit I do this salt water thing for me and my enjoyment. I also am not saying fish are disposable, they are a life just the same. But they are not whales or people. They are very instinct driven and most adapt very well to tank life and seem to thrive.

 

I totally agree with you. There are different levels. But when I had my pufferfish and my clown triggerfish, they opened my eyes to the cognitive abilities of fish. I also once had an octopus and he was a trip. No one could ever convince me that he wasn't "thinking." Tetradontiforms in general seem to show a higher level of cognition than other fish. Not sure why that is, but from my experience they show a lot of what we might call "personality" but really I think they are complex creatures. Shame on me, by the way, for ever owning a clowntriggerfish ( 5 years).... that is my greatest regret ever in this hobby.

 

The fact that some clownfish and damsels do thrive in aquariums does give me hope. Maybe one day I'll have the honor of keeping one. And assuming I provide them a large enough space to be themselves then that might be my loophole to having them one day - aquacultured ones.

 

I think fish are smarter than we think. They lack common mammalian features like blinking eyes and forward facing eyes, and expressive faces, so we think they are just instinctive. But I think many of them are actually intelligent (I realize that needs to be defined, but I think most folks know what I mean by that). More than we give them credit for.

 

And the other issue I think is we pack too many fish in a tight space. It almost always ends in a fish dying. Most people aren't happy with just a clownfish pair.

[tibbsy07]

I don't think we are going to be shut down. I think there are far too many people who are either indifferent or know that we aren't stripping the reefs of everything. The ocean is in a state of rapid decline. I guess we just disagree as to what we think is more likely.

 

But let's say that we are more likely to be shut down than the ocean's life going away. That's just another reason to move into aquaculture. Then we keep our hobby alive, while leaving the reefs be. Scientists will still collect new life/specimens, and they will be moved into captivity. Aquaculturing industry will take off, leading to new advances, and relationships with public/international aquariums to breed rare fish for our hobby. I don't see any negative side to aquaculturing, other than it being difficult.

[farkwar]

Designed?

 

Like some engineer god designed them for a purpose?

 

If so, its quite evidently obvious that they were designed to be killed, die, and be food.

 

 

You can fit in there, the tiniest minority age to reproductive age, reproduce a hundred thousand copies of theselves, with only one or three reaching reproductive age. With the balance/difference being killed, dying, and being eaten by....fish.

 

 

If that is 'design', your silly retarded diety needs to have its engineering license revoked.

 

Whales are not fish, either.