Freshwater dip question.

[dtitus1]

So kind of a strange situation, but I'm breaking down my two tanks in a 24 gallon nano cube and here's whats going on. One fish in my 40 breeder (A neon goby) has had ich spots and seems to be wasting away, it hasn't had really full blown ich though. No other fish have been affected and I'm getting rid of them anyways since they're too large for my new tank, The only fish I want to keep is my Yellow Watchman goby who has shown no signs.

 

The plan is to keep him in a 5.5 gallon temporarily while I put all the rock, sand, and inverts from my 8 gallon totally fine system into the 24 gallon cube. The 40 breeder will remain fallow for a few weeks before I add any rock or corals from that into the new tank.

 

I'm wondering, if my Watchman has no visible signs, the only place he could possibly have ich would be his gills, so in theory wouldn't giving him a freshwater dip be the perfect way to kill gill based parasites with osmotic shock? Then I could just move him into the new tank where there would be no trophonts to reinfect him (IF he's even infected) and there would be no problems. Right?

 

Let me know if I'm wrong for some reason. I just want piece of mind.

[Angel<3Nanos]

I dont think a freshwater dip would fix it. Usually when 1 fish has ich the others would have them, even if they dont show it at first they are serving as hosts.

 

Your best bet will be to QT the fish and lower the salinity and copper treat it. And just hope for the best.

[PRJ]

Do some research on chloroquine phosphate. I hear it treats ich just as well as copper or hyposalinity but is less stressful on fish.

[jack1978]

If you're going to have him in a separate tank anyway.... just treat him with Cupramine and call it a day.

No, the freshwater dip will not do it.

[dtitus1]

I appreciate the input but I think you guys are kind of missing the point of my idea. Since it doesn't have any symptoms the only place it could have it would be the gills which an osmotic shock would kill them extremely quickly, then it wouldn't have a chance to be exposed to more parasites. Why would a copper treatment be necessary? Thats really an intense thing to put a fish through unnecessarily and could kill him by itself even if he was fine already. I would do a hypo treatment if anything but thats really time consuming and also dangerous if you screw things up with PH or ammonia/nitrate.

 

If you're gonna tell me I'm wrong I wanna know how osmotic shock wouldn't kill a non-noticeable amount of gill based parasites cause I'm confused how that wouldn't work. For an actual outbreak I know it wouldn't work but this is very situational.

[Angel<3Nanos]

Do some research on chloroquine phosphate. I hear it treats ich just as well as copper or hyposalinity but is less stressful on fish.

1+ here. Use with caution as it can raise Ammonia. Another one is Quinine Sulfate.

 

I appreciate the input but I think you guys are kind of missing the point of my idea. Since it doesn't have any symptoms the only place it could have it would be the gills which an osmotic shock would kill them extremely quickly, then it wouldn't have a chance to be exposed to more parasites. Why would a copper treatment be necessary? Thats really an intense thing to put a fish through unnecessarily and could kill him by itself even if he was fine already. I would do a hypo treatment if anything but thats really time consuming and also dangerous.

Wow. What a response.We are trying to help you man. Ich can be very tricky. Even if its not visible with the naked eye, it could still be there.

Copper, if done right is able to prevent ich. Plus we are talking about a minor dose since its not showing signs of ich yet.

 

Good luck.

[dtitus1]

I know you're trying to help, I'm not bashing you or anything I'm just trying to figure out how a small amount of parasites in the gills would survive an osmotic shock, because I can't scientifically determine why it wouldn't and I'm asking someone to refute me specifically with a fact of why it wouldn't to support said claim. I do realize this would not be a solution to an actual ich outbreak. This is more of a preventive measure if anything and I do appreciate your guy's input.

[jack1978]

I appreciate the input but I think you guys are kind of missing the point of my idea. Since it doesn't have any symptoms the only place it could have it would be the gills which an osmotic shock would kill them extremely quickly, then it wouldn't have a chance to be exposed to more parasites. Why would a copper treatment be necessary? Thats really an intense thing to put a fish through unnecessarily and could kill him by itself even if he was fine already. I would do a hypo treatment if anything but thats really time consuming and also dangerous if you screw things up with PH or ammonia/nitrate.

 

If you're gonna tell me I'm wrong I wanna know how osmotic shock wouldn't kill a non-noticeable amount of gill based parasites cause I'm confused how that wouldn't work. For an actual outbreak I know it wouldn't work but this is very situational.

 

Your freshwater dip will stress that fish more than Cupramine. Your idea will not work. If it did, everyone would use it.

[dtitus1]

Your freshwater dip will stress that fish more than Cupramine. Your idea will not work. If it did, everyone would use it.

A freshwater dip is nothing compared to a copper treatment. Do you know how osmosis works? Thats really the whole nut of the issue a fish can regulate it's osmosis in freshwater for like half an hour while inverts are basically completely incapable but copper causes damage to a fish internally no matter what dosage, it's only a matter of degree and the fish's ability to heal since most damage is minor but you are still poisoning the fish. Many people use freshwater dips for various purposes without ill effects.

 

I'm not trying to sound like a dick but you guys are kind of forcing me into a defensive posture by not understanding the issue which is fine that is the nature of discussion. Just clarifying and trying to be cordial about it which is never easy especially on the internet.

[Angel<3Nanos]

I know you're trying to help, I'm not bashing you or anything I'm just trying to figure out how a small amount of parasites in the gills would survive an osmotic shock, because I can't scientifically determine why it wouldn't and I'm asking someone to refute me specifically with a fact of why it wouldn't to support said claim. I do realize this would not be a solution to an actual ich outbreak. This is more of a preventive measure if anything and I do appreciate your guy's input.

Freshwater dips are effective for many parasites. If you have the nerve to see your fish swim like crazy and lay on its side like if it were dying through the dip and then expose it to air then use the dip. I for one would rather QT the fish and use medication. As mentioned above cloroquine Phosphate, Cupramine, Quinine Sulfate etc.

[dtitus1]

Freshwater dips are effective for many parasites. If you have the nerve to see your fish swim like crazy and lay on its side like if it were dying through the dip and then expose it to air then use the dip. I for one would rather QT the fish and use medication. As mentioned above cloroquine Phosphate, Cupramine, Quinine Sulfate etc.

 

 

Hey I appreciate your viewpoint but I'm still looking for a specific scientific reason why this method wouldn't be viable as a safeguard in this particular situation. I am not prepared to expose my fish to potentially life threatening (especially for gobies) medication if it might not even be necessary and there is a viable alternative that will provide minimal stress to the animal I'm sorry.

[GlassHouse]

Freshwater dips are effective for many parasites.

 

Except, apparently, Ich: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

[jack1978]

No one is being a dick..... yet.

 

But, why ask if you already know what you're going to do?

People are only responding.....I thought that was what you asked for?

 

And yes, I know what osmosis is.

 

You seem to know how devastating Cupramine can be, you must have used it quite a few times in the past?

[dtitus1]

Except, apparently, Ich: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

This article supports what I'm saying... that the use of freshwater dips may be used in specific situations at least thats what the author believes.

 

No one is being a dick..... yet. But, why ask if you already know what you're going to do? People are only responding.....I thought that was what you asked for? And yes, I know what osmosis is. You seem to know how devastating Cupramine can be, you must have used it quite a few times in the past?

What I was asking for was a specific, scientific, reason why this wouldn't be a viable idea and why I shouldn't do it aka asking for peer review for a preliminary analyses of a hypothesis before experimentation IDK maybe I've done too much lab work before. All I'm getting though is spam from people regurgitating knowledge at me and getting mad about something that isn't even the issue. And, no I've never used a copper treatment before but I've heard from my friends and shop keepers of many instances where a copper treatment was fatal to a fish, especially scaleless fish like gobies. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT ALL THOUGH.

[dtitus1]

Does anyone have anything related to the actual issue of osmosis that they would like to add?

[jack1978]

This article supports what I'm saying... that the use of freshwater dips may be used in specific situations at least thats what the author believes.

 

 

What I was asking for was a specific, scientific, reason why this wouldn't be a viable idea and why I shouldn't do it aka asking for peer review for a preliminary analyses of a hypothesis before experimentation IDK maybe I've done too much lab work before. All I'm getting though is spam from people regurgitating knowledge at me and getting mad about something that isn't even the issue. And, no I've never used a copper treatment before but I've heard from my friends and shop keepers of many instances where a copper treatment was fatal to a fish, especially scaleless fish like gobies. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT ALL THOUGH.

 

One last thing, and I'm done.

 

I lost a boatload of fish all at once from ich after 3 years. All were extremely healthy. One fish added killed them all....except for my Yellow Watchman, Midas and Possum. All the others were lost as I tried all the easy fixes...some were more costly than setting up the qt. Once I lost just about all of them, I set up the quarantine and treated them all to Cupramine and everyone made it just fine. The stuff is easy, all fish showed immediate improvement with no I'll effects.

 

Good luck.

[GlassHouse]

This article supports what I'm saying... that the use of freshwater dips may be used in specific situations at least thats what the author believes.

Perhaps you didn't read it. The author flat out states: "I do not, however, recommend freshwater dips as a cure for Cryptocaryon irritans (ich)."

 

He goes on to note: "In my opinion, the repeated handling and osmotic shock of repeated dips are far too stressful to warrant its usage when other proven, but less aggressive treatments are available such as hyposalinity or daily water changes."

[Angel<3Nanos]

Except, apparently, Ich: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm'>http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

No one is being a dick..... yet.

 

But, why ask if you already know what you're going to do?

People are only responding.....I thought that was what you asked for?

 

And yes, I know what osmosis is.

 

You seem to know how devastating Cupramine can be, you must have used it quite a few times in the past?

One last thing, and I'm done.

 

I lost a boatload of fish all at once from ich after 3 years. All were extremely healthy. One fish added killed them all....except for my Yellow Watchman, Midas and Possum. All the others were lost as I tried all the easy fixes...some were more costly than setting up the qt. Once I lost just about all of them, I set up the quarantine and treated them all to Cupramine and everyone made it just fine. The stuff is easy, all fish showed immediate improvement with no I'll effects.

 

Good luck.

Perhaps you didn't read it. The author flat out states: "I do not, however, recommend freshwater dips as a cure for Cryptocaryon irritans (ich)."

He goes on to note: "In my opinion, the repeated handling and osmotic shock of repeated dips are far too stressful to warrant its usage when other proven, but less aggressive treatments are available such as hyposalinity or daily water changes."

 

 

1+ to all this.

[dtitus1]

He still said he does it sometimes for specific situations which I think this could qualify. As I've said before I'm not using this method to treat an ich outbreak, all I'm doing is just a bit of precaution which the author says you should do to all fish, he said however he was not of the opinion that freshwater dips is a good treatment for ich which I 100% agree the stress of multiple dips and then placing them back in the ich infested environment would be stupid. I've yet to read anything on there thats going against what I'm saying.

 

. "Just to clarify, I do employ and advocate the use of freshwater dips when first receiving fish. I believe all fish that can be dipped should be administered this treatment prior to placement into a proper quarantine tank. This is done in an effort to minimize all possible parasitic infections. I do not, however, recommend freshwater dips as a cure for Cryptocaryon irritans. In my opinion, the repeated handling and osmotic shock of repeated dips are far too stressful to warrant its usage when other proven, but less aggressive treatments are available such as hyposalinity or daily water changes."

[Angel<3Nanos]

He still said he does it sometimes for specific situations which I think this could qualify. As I've said before I'm not using this method to treat an ich outbreak, all I'm doing is just a bit of precaution which the author says you should do to all fish, he said however he was not of the opinion that freshwater dips is a good treatment for ich which I 100% agree the stress of multiple dips and then placing them back in the ich infested environment would be stupid. I've yet to read anything on there thats going against what I'm saying.

 

. "Just to clarify, I do employ and advocate the use of freshwater dips when first receiving fish. I believe all fish that can be dipped should be administered this treatment prior to placement into a proper quarantine tank. This is done in an effort to minimize all possible parasitic infections. I do not, however, recommend freshwater dips as a cure for Cryptocaryon irritans. In my opinion, the repeated handling and osmotic shock of repeated dips are far too stressful to warrant its usage when other proven, but less aggressive treatments are available such as hyposalinity or daily water changes."

The very BEST option here is to QT that fish and monitor it.

 

Freshwater dip it if you want, but with no QT and for some unknown reason it turns out to have ich. Well.... you knoe the rest.

[dtitus1]

Does anyone else have anything to add?

[Eckozulu]

Your goby had spots and appears to be wasting away. Sounds like full blown ich. Good luck

[dtitus1]

thats the neon, different goby i don't think he will make it but my other fish are all fine and have been for weeks since it happened to the neon randomly.