Laeelin Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Just a quick comment on the temp for you.. < than 65k "looks" yellow... you DONT want less than 65k unless you like a tank that looks like pee =P 65k is the cut off point... at 65k the look fine under 65k and they dont ever look "OK" Personally on the tank i'm setting up for my dad I plan to run a single 20k bulb because thats the best single bulb solution IMO... from that little I know =) -Laeelin Link to comment
winnker Posted June 9, 2004 Author Share Posted June 9, 2004 lol thanks I am going to go with 10K I think it gives a good mix of coral color and groth where as the 20K reduces growth. lol I have learned much from you good people lol Link to comment
Laeelin Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 From what I understand the diffrence in growth isnt much ... (please correct me if i'm wrong) I'd worry more about looks than growth because growth will come either way =) Link to comment
Cellenzweig Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 From what I understand, there is a significant difference in growth between 6500k and 20000k when it comes to high-light corals (acros, etc...) For softies and LPS it probably isn't an issue. Link to comment
Laeelin Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 From what I understand, there is a significant difference in growth between 6500k and 20000k when it comes to high-light corals (acros, etc...) For softies and LPS it probably isn't an issue. I'm sorry, I was talking about the 10k + 03 vs the 20k ... big diffrence =) Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Steve973 Acrylic is plastic and it will melt next to a halide. Steve Has this happened to you? I have been running Lexan under my MH's with not even a slight warp. If it melts , it's too close to begin with. I use acrylic for price, easy of fabrication if needed, and replacement cost. Originally posted by surfy The color temp really has nothing to do with what you want to keep. Wattage and PAR determines what you can keep and where at in the tank. Not true, some animals are only found at specific depths in the ocean. Light waves of 6,500 K do not go below 10 M or so... In Actuality, a 6,500 bulb is probably your best choice for a reef. The animals collected are almost all , for sure, gonna come from the first 30 feet of the water. beyond that, collection becomes to difficult, or too pricey. Wattage and Par are actually more related to each other, than separate aspects. Wattage determines the amount of PAR the lightbulb can put off. Color temperature has to do with the depth at which the light rays penetrate and you want to try to mimic the environment from where the animals were collected. a 6,500 will not give you crappy colors, they just won't be as visible to the naked eye. Actinic supplement will assist in bringing out these colors, if you run a dawn dusk effect, I think you will be very happy with your results. Link to comment
kris_willard Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Get a 14k its the best of all worlds! You get a nice blue but its not a 20k so you gety growth that in between! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Laeelin Just a quick comment on the temp for you.. < than 65k "looks" yellow... you DONT want less than 65k unless you like a tank that looks like pee =P 65k is the cut off point... at 65k the look fine under 65k and they dont ever look "OK" your tank won't look like "pee" if yuo keep your water clean. 6,500 is the cutoff, not because it doesn't look "pretty" below that, it is because light waves of a lower frequency cannot penetrate through the waters surface. They won't ever look ok, because they have NEVER seen that temp light in their life, and will most likely die(to those trying to use greenhouse growing bulbs). Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 in regards to 14K's, they have been shown to produce less par than even 20K bulbs, I don't think the technoplogyand materials to produce a QUALITY 13 - 15 K bulb has been mastered yet. http://www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm Link to comment
Cellenzweig Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I don't think the technoplogyand materials to produce a QUALITY 13 - 15 K bulb has been mastered yet. I dunno about that. It think Aqualine Bushke has done a pretty good job with their 13k. (And your link seems to agree) But then again, AB are pretty expensive in comparison to some of the others. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Actually, the AB bulbs are at least 30% less output than the iwasakis. And if 1 manufacturer has gotten a good product , doesn't mean they've mastered the bulb making technologies. The bottom 50% of the bulbs, are between 12, and 20 K. out of those, 3 are 20's, and the other 5 are 13 - 15's. Another thing, you can put any label on a lamp you want. if yuo look at the pictures, the AB 13k, looks like a 10k, even moreso than some of the 10k's. I think a spectral analysis would be needed to determine if it is truly a 10K output as it doesn't appear to be. so nobody thinks I am puching any lamps... I am not an advocate for any bulbs... I use 20K's, I use 10 k's, and soon will be using 6,500's as well. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 looking at the link again, every bulb ABOVE the AB13, is a 10 K or 6,500K. ALMOST Every bulb below it is a 12 - 20K. Just cuz you are the first piece of poop to cross the finish line, doesn't make you any less of a piece of poop. Again, I don't think the bulbs are poop, but the info is out there. I would also suggest looking at the pictures before anyone buys a new bulb. Link to comment
kris_willard Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I like the look of 14k buld and thats about all i can comment on. Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 hold on .. need to clarify "If you spend extra on tempered UV glass, that'd be even better." you need uv shielded glass if using a DE bulb- no it would be nicer... unless you liek your corals burnt, and your eyes to have cataracs in a day, and then blindness in a week.. possibly even red skin from burning... unshileded halide light is VERY dangerous... and VERY damaging to you and your investment/ pets. birdman- i am running a 65 K saki. suplemented with VHO actinics +VHO 10K .... i am now happy finally, and have been very pleased.. a very nice bright, yet enough color.. amazing rate of growth and coral coloration in the tank- lots of browns turning to purples i know those sakis put off a ton of pars.... 65K is nice IMO if you suplement.. it is better than non halide alone.. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Matt... many hardcore keepers are switching over to 6,500's, In my prop system, I have 10k's, but will be running 6,500's and VHO's here soon. Kris- that is not a problem, and I am not talking down on those who don't, Heck I use 20K's in my display. But 10K's for other things, such as fuge lighting or a prop tank. Link to comment
wallywaltt Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 The halides are really that damaging to humans? If the back of my canopy is open with no glass filtering the MH light in the back, and the light is bouncing off the wall and I can see it, could that be harmful? Link to comment
Cellenzweig Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 looking at the link again, every bulb ABOVE the AB13, is a 10 K or 6,500K. ALMOST Every bulb below it is a 12 - 20K. I think you better check the link again as well. On almost every ballast, the AB13k falls below 2 10k bulbs and above 3. On PFO standard ballasts, there is only 1 10k and 1 6500k about the AB. Doesn't this indicate that the AB puts out MORE light than the average 10k? - or am I missing something here? Link to comment
Cellenzweig Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 The halides are really that damaging to humans? If the back of my canopy is open with no glass filtering the MH light in the back, and the light is bouncing off the wall and I can see it, could that be harmful? Single ended MH bulbs are not harmful. The outer glass is actually a UV shield. Double ended MH don't have a UV shield and therefore have to be installed behind one. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 The first # after the bulb name is the par reading ARO (Hellolights) Electronic Ballast Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 617 250 253 2.11 2.19 XM10K 537 250 251 2.16 2.37 BLSW 474 250 254 2.16 2.2 SUN10K 470 248 256 2.14 2.23 AB13K 443 252 254 2.15 2.51 AB = 29% lower than iwasaki CoralVue Electronic Ballast Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 580 247 266 2.0 2.36 XM10K 552 257 270 2.12 2.5 BLSW 490 252 270 2.02 2.2 CV10K 439 262 265 2.1 2.13 AB13K 375 224 268 1.8 2.39 AB = 46% less output than Iwasaki Blueline E-Ballast Electronic Ballast Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 569 244 247 1.99 2.14 XM10K 531 243 244 2.0 2.03 BLSW 483 246 250 1.99 2.11 SUN10K 477 244 245 1.99 2.0 Ushio 439 245 247 2.0 2.03 AB13K 437 246 249 1.99 2.09 AB = 23.8 % less output than Iwasaki IceCap Electronic Ballast Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 664 252 275 2.17 2.45 XM10K 541 252 254 2.2 2.82 BLSW 504 252 254 2.15 2.83 SUN10K 504 252 255 2.14 3.86 AB13K 430 254 257 2.17 2.3 AB = 45% less output. PFO HQI Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 969 355 384 3.02 4.79 XM10K 852 340 341 2.93 4.07 BLSW 716 349 359 3.0 5.72 SUN10K 713 342 346 2.95 3.36 AB13K 672 341 349 2.96 4.55 AB = 30% less output than Iwasaki PFO Standard Lamp PAR Watts MaxWatts Amps MaxAmp Iwasaki 705 286 331 2.53 6.86 XM10K 612 268 269 2.47 3.39 AB13K 577 301 303 2.64 3.81 AB = 18.5% less output. That is an average of less than 32%. I used Iwasakis for a standard as they were always the highest output bulbs. I think you are missed my point, the superior bulb has the highest ratings.. the 13K bulbs aren't even close, they aren't even in the top 3, well, on 1 ballast, but even then they are 20% weaker. So you pick 1 ballast and use that as your example? The test was done this way for a reason. I see that bulb in 5th in EVERY OTHER BALLAST, and the par is at least 20% less and in most cases even less. For someone to disagree that the bulb technology is not as good as the 6,500's or 10k's is a fallacy. The data is there. and for someone to also pick 1 bulb manufacturer that has good results and say use that for "all" 13k bulbs, is just misleading. Link to comment
Cellenzweig Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 For someone to disagree that the bulb technology is not as good as the 6,500's or 10k's is a fallacy. I'm not disagreeing at all. The Iwasakis are clearly superior bulbs and generally lower temp. bulbs have higher output. and for someone to also pick 1 bulb manufacturer that has good results and say use that for "all" 13k bulbs, is just misleading. Maybe you can show me where I did this?? Let me clarify how this discussion began. You said, I don't think the technoplogyand materials to produce a QUALITY 13 - 15 K bulb has been mastered yet. I was simply stating that the AB13k is superior to all of the other bulbs in it's temperature range, as well as all of the 20k bulbs. I'm not trying to argue, I was just wondering why you said "13-15k bulbs" and not "anything above 10k"? Link to comment
winnker Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 anyhow, I am going to get uv tempered glass for it now I just have to find someone who will cut glass into a round shape lol. the one I usually use won't I dont' think anyhow. lol and the bulb I found actually I put it in wrong I was going to use a 5600K. lol and that really wouldn't be good. I am going to go with 10K. I have never seen a 14K and I don't like the blue of the 20K I like just a 10K color. Link to comment
Laeelin Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 your tank won't look like "pee" if yuo keep your water clean. 6,500 is the cutoff, not because it doesn't look "pretty" below that, it is because light waves of a lower frequency cannot penetrate through the waters surface. They won't ever look ok, because they have NEVER seen that temp light in their life, and will most likely die(to those trying to use greenhouse growing bulbs). 5400 = yellow water 6500 = clear water At least in my tank. That's swapping one bulb back and forth (was showing my wife why I needed the better bulbs) I think that 5400k looks yellow anywhere... Put a 5400k bulb in any light socket in the house and that area will look yellow... Put at 6500k+ in the same socket and the area will look white. Link to comment
Steve973 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 All glass filters UV. The UV shielding glass just filters more. Steve Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 steve.. you are right however- big urban legend.... and by your defination, the light chamber on a halide bulb is glass. so why does that not filter it? normal glass will indeed filter [and some loss due to reflection] only a small percentage of it- we are talking closer to 10-20% of UV out instead of more the 95-97% UV glass removes.. i don't remember the exact numbers off hand- those are ballpark figures....... normal glass leaves enough there that the DEs unfiltered are still harmful.. especailly once you get in the 150W range.. can't imagine a 400 watt unfiltered- ouch... this is why art galleries use UV glass in front of important pictures and paintings.. i know you have seen faded carpet next to a picture window, probably double or triple normal pained glass... normal glass only blocks so much. what would i know though? trying to have everyone keep their personal health and vision at it's height- as you will enjoy your tank much better when you can see it in 10 years... any exposure to UV to your eyes is very damaging, is known to onset cataracts early, etc... other bad stuff... and hopefully you are going to to be looking at the tank a lot. depending on the angle of reflection, you can have a lot of that UV bouncing back to your eyes if you look at the water's surface.. let alone what happens to the corals that will get sick and burnt depending on how much wattage your bulb is... Link to comment
yessongs Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 winnker, keep in mind the link i gave you on page 2 www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm is very helpful but is not the same equipment that Sanjay used a few years ago on 400W bulbs www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/ballast%20comparison/ballast-comparison.html here is the thread all 46 or so pages www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254667&highlight=250w+MH+bulbs it is very helpful and a lot of us on reef central appreciate what joe has done for all reefers. Anyway you need UV protective glass. IMO the 5600K bulb was made to run with actinics they will look too yellow without them. CoralVue makes a 12K bulb thats really nice without actinics. They had a problem with there bulbs and UV damage to SPSs now the new bulbs are doing fine. I use 250W 10K Ushio MH with 64W actinic and its on the yellow side this is on my 25 gal. Link to comment
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