AmQuel Plus and Cupramine Unanswered Questions

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

This is an on going issue that kind of needs to be put to rest.

 

I have a bit of a crisis on my hands with my hippo tang. I had to take him out of the DT and HT him before I could allow the tank before the HT could cycle. I was using amquel plus to keep the ammonia and nitrates in a non toxic form while the HT cycled.

 

Well the tank was taking its good old time cycling and my hippo got ich really bad after about 10 days in the HT. I then got ahold of some cupramine by seachem and dosed that thinking things would be ok and the parasites would die off as stated by seachem.

 

I watched my fish closly for about 30mins. They started behaving very poorly and almost laying on the bottom of the tank and gasping for air and seemed very irritated. I then got them all out ASAP and put them back in the DT they came from. I then ran coppersorb quickly to try to undo the copper treatment after reading that amquel plus converts cupramine to a toxic form to keep from killing the bacteria. I then watched the ich go away in a day and the ammonia dropped to zero. So then I added the fish back to the HT. Then BAM!!! My hippo breaks out with ich bad in less then 24 hours!

 

I then called Kordon to speak with soneone about this. Who do i get on the line??? One of the scientists who helped develope this product at kordon on the phone and had about a 40min long debate with him. He swears up and down that amquel plus will not interact WHATSOEVER with cupramine and WILL NOT reduce it to a more toxic form of copper.

 

I'm looking for a solution and I need help with this if anyone knows anything to help out, that would be great. The truth about these products would suffice too. Thanks

[kismetsh]

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq2

 

Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?

A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq2

 

Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?

A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

I've seen this FAQ on Kordons website before. It doesn't really help me much because Amquel Plus is not mentioned anywhere.

[kismetsh]

I've seen this FAQ on Kordons website before. It doesn't really help me much because Amquel Plus is not mentioned anywhere.

 

I'm not sure why Kordon would have this on their website considering it is a Seachem FAQ and both Prime and Cupramine are Seachem products. Note the URL, seachem.com...

 

At any rate, Amquel plus is a dechlorinator (among other functions) so when the FAQ says "...a dechlorinator, such as Prime..." that doesn't mean "Prime only". I would not expect Seachem to name other competitor's products in their FAQ.

 

If you still think it doesn't help you I'm not sure what to say. Good luck.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

I meant to say seachem's website not kordon. I needed a better answer then that is why I say the FAQ is kind of unhelpful in a way. The reasoning for my not excepting the reply is because of what the Phd at Kordon that helped design amquel plus told me. I spoke with him again today for yet another 40mins going over the same stuff again. He swears up and down that amquel plus will not reduce cupramine to its toxic Cu1 form. Product X does not really Signify amquel plus directly.

 

Anyways, after speaking with him, I finally think I got to the truth regarding this ongoing issue. It turns out the guy was a bit old school and didn't really know what cupramine actually was. He seemed to think it was just another product containing a toxic form of copper and kept repeating how it should be used only for extreme measures by the elite aquarists (which I told him I totally agree with) but we are not dealing with a toxic form of copper here. Its a complexed form of copper that is designed to keep fish safe while it destroys parasites. Amquel Plus along with any other water condition that uses "reducing agents most do including prime" will reduce cupramine to its deadly Cu1 form.

 

One mystery that still remains is that in a tank with all these elements were trying to condition, which do they reduce first? We could probably write a small book going over that question so Ill stop here.

 

I am now having email tag with seachem regarding the reasoning why they would not put a simple warning on there product telling people how water conditioners "including there very own prime product" can and will reduce cupramine into a deadly poison which can kill the fish people are trying to keep alive in just a few hours.

 

This is such a major issue because there is a very high probability that water conditioners will be used in conjunction with parasitic treatments like cupramine due to the fact that they are mostly used in uncycled HT.

 

I am a very big fan of Seachem, but shame on them for that. Just think how many fish have died horrible deaths and all the frustrated hobbyists because of the lack of a very simple warning.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

Seachem going to be designing a new label and is going to be warning people about reducing agents on it from that point on.