'mystery' phosphates...

[amored]

i'm sure it's not much of a mystery, but it is to me.

 

 

i have a nuvo 16G softie tank. all corals and both fish (firefish and sixline) are very healthy, good polyp extension, and my eco-gorgs are happy as well.

 

i have very low nitrates (.25 ppm per salifert kit) and a helluva cyano outbreak. it's the black/very dark bluegreen cyano, if that's relevant. i'm assuming it's feeding off of phosphates, but i'm running chemipure elite in both media baskets and i do a 10% WC once per week with RO/DI i make myself using an air water and ice mighty mite system. i store the water in a large rubbermaid trash can and then transfer it to either a homer's paint bucket where i mix my salt (aquavitro) or in 1 gallon jugs which i use for top-offs.

 

i feed hikari carnivore marine diet (frozen cubes) which give off no nitrates but likely phosphates.

 

so, here's the query-

 

1. are they coming from the plastic? if so, what do you store your water in?

2. are they coming from my food? i do not overfeed, one cube every other day, both fish are healthy.

3. shouldn't the chemo-pure elite be removing them? should i get some phosban or some such?

[gojk]

Have you tested your RODI water and Freshly mixed salt water for Phosphates? If those turn up 0 then I would start lowering the amount of food that you fee each time.

[Nano sapiens]

Since you are seeing all those lovely colored cyano, you have too many nutrients in the tank. Specifically, you very likely have too much detritus in your sand bed and perhaps other areas which contains lots of phosphates. Chemipure Elite has limited capacity to absorb high levels of phosphates, so it's soon exhausted. For your type of system (non-SPS) a typical Phosphate test kit that reads to .003 ppm (Salifert is one example) can be useful to tell you the level of inorganic phosphate (none will read organic phosphate levels, though). Just be aware that if you have lots of actively growing algae, they can use up phosphate at a high enough level that a test kit could read '0', but you still have a phosphate issue.

 

On a practical level, siphon off the cyano sheets as you see them form (this is a form of 'nutrient removal'). Start to remove detritus pockets via siphoning wherever they are, but don't try and remove all at once. Best practice is do a bit every week with your WC while cutting down a bit on feeding.

 

In a nut shell, you need to balance your input of nutrients with your export of nutrients once you achieve a nutrient level that sustains your desirable organisms.

[amored]

Since you are seeing all those lovely colored cyano, you have too many nutrients in the tank. Specifically, you very likely have too much detritus in your sand bed and perhaps other areas which contains lots of phosphates. Chemipure Elite has limited capacity to absorb high levels of phosphates, so it's soon exhausted. For your type of system (non-SPS) a typical Phosphate test kit that reads to .003 ppm (Salifert is one example) can be useful to tell you the level of inorganic phosphate (none will read organic phosphate levels, though).

 

On a practical level, siphon off the cyano sheets as you see them form (this is a form of nutrient removal). Start to remove detritus pockets via siphoning wherever they are, but don't try and remove all at once. Best practice is do a bit every week with your WC while cutting down a bit on feeding.

 

In a nut shell, you need to balance your input of nutrients with your export of nutrients once you achieve a nutrient level that sustains your desirable organisms.

 

i suspected this and purchased a sand-bed vacuum attachment for my siphon during WC's. i am also waiting to order an oxydator (increases dissolved O2) as i have read that cyano prefers lower 02 levels.

[Nano sapiens]

I am not familiar with an 'oxydator', but if you have limited flow in the tank, and/or a closed hood, then the tank can benefit overall from more O2.

 

If your husbandry practices are good and you can balance your inputs vs outputs, phosphate adsorbing products (Phosban, etc.) should not be necessary.

[thegambler26]

One cube every other day? That's a lot of food for two fish in a 16 gal tank. I have a 35 gal tank with 2 fish and feed a few small squirts with a turkey baster 3 times a week. Make sure that most of the food you feed gets gobbled up by the fish. Any food you put in eaten or not eventually ends up as a source of phosphate, so limiting the input along with some of the other practices mentioned before will help a lot. It will take time though so don't get discouraged if the problem isn't immediately resolved.

[Subsea]

Nano gave you some good advice. Cynobacteria mats don't use organic phosphate in water column, they use enzymes to convert inorganic phosphate in the substrate to be assimilated into cyno biomass. Most macroalgae assimilate one molecule of organic phosphate to 100 molecules of nitrate from the water column.

Every time you do a partial water change, vacumn detritus from substrate.

[AZDesertRat]

You have not said what your RO/DI TDS is? This could very well be a source of the phosphates if your water utility feeds phosphates in the distribution system as a form of corrosion control. RO by itself is not very effective at phosphates and exhausted DI resin would release all it has trapped, often in much higher levels than the tap water since it is weakly ionized and the reasin will not hold it.

[baldbean]

I'm curious. When you first started your tank did you rinse your sand with tap water? I have a 'mystery' phosphate issue too. GHA has been in my tank since the first month. I was going to start a reactor soon.

[matty0206]

Did you start your tank with dry rock?

[Trogdor447]

Now now said the brown cow.. A lot of good advice has been given through the posts on here. I have to admit battling the most bad a## algae battle that i've seen without peroxide.. I have to say my phosphates were off the charts. I fed the tank 2x a week MAX with flake food, have a protein skimmer, ran carbon in a baggy and did 5% weekly water changes... My phosphates were mind numbing high. I use an RODI and tested the water coming out of there at 0ppm phosphates as far as I could tell. I reduced my light schedule from 12 hours to 8 hours blue and 6 hours white... still this did not help.. I increased my water flow to almost double... that helped clean the cyano off the ground and stir up a sand storm. Until i put the GFO reactor on it from BRS the battle was never ending and the algae would grow back 2x as fast as i could trim it.

 

I would highly suggest getting some form of phosban/gfo media to help in reducing the phosphates before it becomes a real problem.

 

here is an example of my problem - this is just after turning on the new power head it stirred up all this crap

[xerophyte_nyc]

Phosphates are still a big mystery in our tanks, mainly because we can't measure so much of it (the organic portion) and because a significant amount is "hidden" by adsorbing to calcium carbonite in sand and rock. To make matters worse, cyanobacteria have enzymes that allow them access to bound phosphates in the rock or sand, unlike algae which for the most part have to use inorganic phosphate.

 

Another even bigger mystery in our tanks is the microbiology. We have no way to measure it, all we have is evidence. Bacteria are there, but how much and what types? There is no way bacteria in our puny little systems approach anything near the stable levels of a reef. The populations likely ebb and flow on an hourly basis depending on food availability. You feed the tank, all of a sudden bacteria multiply rapidly, then the food source is gone, bacteria die and introduce unwanted nutrients into the water. There's one of your mystery sources of phosphate.

 

Detritus is likely bacterial debris along with other waste. It accumulates on sand, in sand, on rock and in the rock pores. These are all waste products that have to be physically removed. GFO does nothing. Detritus eventually is converted into inorganic phosphate as it is further digested and broken down, which then feeds algae. GFO tackles phosphates further downstream, where instead we should focus on preventing phosphates from building up in the first place. A skimmer removes some of the organic phosphates. As does water changes and vacuuming with basting the rock. It's a never-ending chore, but is necessary to maintain a healthy tank.

[Nano sapiens]

You are correct that there is still a lot to learn about phosphates. Calcium carbonate materials are sinks for phosphate, but bacteria can also liberate phosphate from this material. In certain well maintained tanks the absorption and liberation can roughly balance each other out and LR and LS can have little to no effect on measurable PO4.

 

You've said it all when it comes to GFO. It's useful in certain circumstances, but having to use it continuously is just masking a phosphate issue.

 

Hopefully, the OP will go through all the phosphate related items one by one until the cause(s) is/are found.