dinoflagellates

[Pjanssen]

I'm considering breaking down my 5 gallon because of dinoflagellates. Here are my questions:

 

1. If i take my existing corals (1 zoa, 1 xenia, 1 ricordia florida, and 1 neon finger leather) and place them in my 10 gallon, do I risk contaminating that tank? I am currently battling cyno in that tank, but it seems to be coming under control.

2. If I take all of the rocks and sand out of the 5 gallon, and scrub the heck out of the rocks, will they still be live? I'm ok with having to start over and recycle the tank, but I really like the shape of these rocks and want to use them again. I've read a few posts that suggest the only way to get rid of the dinos is to cook the rock, then it really won't be alive anymore. I have limited room in the tank to add more rock.

3. will my two damsels be okay left in the 5 gallon while I recycle the tank ? I'm worried about adding two more fish to the bio-load of my 10 gallon.

 

My other thought is to remove corals as stated above and doing a blackout for a week. Here are my questions:

1. can I leave the fish in?

2. I don't have a way of putting chemipure or purigen in my filter. Can I put them in a media bag and just float them in front of my power head?

3. What about my clean up crew, consisting of several assorted hermits and a variety of snails(ceriths, nassirius, nerites, chitons, and limpets)

 

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

In case you want to know, Params are:

temp 80

pH 8.0

alk. 9.1 dKh

calcium 440

Amm. 0

nitirtes 0

nitrates <5

phos. 0

Did I miss anything?

[brandon429]

Let's see pics. We've cured dinos with peroxide before...so before you cook you have that option. Need pics to get a strategy

[KerryL.]

Is there any connection with HOB filters and dinoflagellates? I was having some grow on the back glass and it was killing my birds nest too until I removed the HOB and replaced it with a circulation pump. I was using a Marineland 150 just for flow without any media, bio wheel, or even a top lid. A week after removing this HOB the dinoflagellates are 95% gone. I thought maybe the current it created and being in contact with the air as it flowed down the overflow spill way had something to do with it. The new under water circulation pump only makes small ripples at the surface compared to the HOB current crashed into the top of the water.

[Pjanssen]

It's not a great pic, but...In the morning, all the brown fuzz is covered with little bubbles. It is pretty much covering the whole tank, including the walls, with I wipe off daily. It appears to be smothering all of my softies. my clove polyps barely open, my zoa colony looks awful, as does my ricordea. finger leather still looks ok.

Thanks for helping.

[Pjanssen]

Treating with peroxide? Should I take the rocks out and soak them in a solution of FW and h2o2, or salt water and h2o2. What is the ratio? How long do I soak them for?

[Pjanssen]

I think instructions are in here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=268706

 

How can anyone on NR not have seen this thread?\0\0

I did see this thread, but I don't have bryopsis. sooooo...do I treat the bacteria the same way? Guess I could try and see what happens. Corals can't look much worse than they do right now!

[Pjanssen]

So after following some other posts, I'm going to try the peroxide dosing. .5 ml per day. No lights. will post results.

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-aquar...efing-tool.html

[Seamonkey84]

I had a bad outbreak that ended up choking out half my acans last summer. I did the 1ml per ten gallons (I even did up to 2 ml a day in my ten gallon just to be sure but prob wasn't nessisary) did the trick in couple weeks and haven't had an issue since. Then when I had a bryopsis issue, the dipping worked miracles like the link said.

[brandon429]

Yes I would do the stronger 2 mls per gallon with dinos not the half dose.

 

And instead of dosing the water you could kill it much faster by taking out rocks and pouring peroxide on the bad parts then rinse externally

 

Wipe it out of main tank by hand, then you treat with peroxide after its been manually removed to prevent leftovers from coming back

 

That is an inverse way of applying peroxide...to a tank cleaned of an invader already.

 

The peroxide really prevents regrowth. And why wait weeks for a clean tank, make it happen now and your tank will look great

[Pjanssen]

Yes I would do the stronger 2 mls per gallon with dinos not the half dose.

 

And instead of dosing the water you could kill it much faster by taking out rocks and pouring peroxide on the bad parts then rinse externally

 

Wipe it out of main tank by hand, then you treat with peroxide after its been manually removed to prevent leftovers from coming back

 

That is an inverse way of applying peroxide...to a tank cleaned of an invader already.

 

The peroxide really prevents regrowth. And why wait weeks for a clean tank, make it happen now and your tank will look great

 

My tank consists of just two fairly large rocks, and my corals are clued to them. Would you suggest removing the corals if I go your route? And do I risk an incredible amount of die- off that I should be concerned about?

[brandon429]

The big thread has all the details

 

Its ok to leave corals on the rock they don't mind out of water for a few mins while you scrub/treat the rock and areas around them

 

No tank dieoff has been reported in big thread

 

Post us update pics after your manual cleaning, then a couple updates during treatment so we can see if it comes back

 

The big thread has each persons number of times they are dosing each week, it varies. I think you should try mon/wed/Fri morning dosing of your calculated amount for a week or two then we will know how tough it will be on the rebound

[Mojorizn]

Let's see pics. We've cured dinos with peroxide before...so before you cook you have that option. Need pics to get a strategy

 

I had long stringy, brown, bubbly, nasty crap.

 

The Peroxide thing works.

In addition, I removed 90% of my old sandbed and started dosing 6ml (70 gal total volume) of peroxide daily (at night).

I dunked a few bare rocks in 50% solution for round 10-15 minutes a couple times.

 

I have fish, LPS/SPS/Clam/Inverts ... no issues.

 

Took round two weeks ... problem under control. That was several months ago.

[121a]

I took care of dinos with Mg, raised it to 1500 and it went away. But I guess if peroxide works go for it.

[Pjanssen]

PROGRESS:

After 2 days of dosing .5 ml of peroxide and keeping the tank dark, I noticed a slight improvement in the tank. The rocks are still covered for the most part, but less stringy and less bubbles. The sides of the tank are no longer growing with the stuff(yay!).

 

I then decided to dose the .5 ml 2x a day. After 1 1/2 days of that, I didn't notice much difference. This morning I finally had some extra time, so I took one of the two rocks out and poured straight peroxide on it ( hopefully avoiding the finger leather and zoa colony attached to it). I then scrubbed the heck out of it and rinsed well with RO/DI. I then poured more peroxide on the rock, and placed it in a bowl with 1/2 fresh salt water and 1/2 old tank water while I cleaned the rest of the tank, scrubbing the base rock as best i could, replacing filter floss and carbon. Topped the tank off with fresh salt water.

 

Still keeping the lights off for a while, and will dose peroxide again tonight, as well as change filter floss again, as I'm sure it will be loaded with what I scrubbed off today. Will try to post pics tomorrow.

[Pjanssen]

Update:

I was disappointed to see some brown stuff on the rock that I scrubbed yesterday. Still looks a lot better though. My Xenia and ric actually look better though. Don't think the clove polyps or zoas are going to make it:-( we'll see.

Also had a pretty good ammonia spike, .25-.5, and nitrates up to 5. Did a 20% water change and cleaned filter floss.

Plan to continue dosing .5 ml 2x a day until amm and nitrates come down, then scrub 2nd rock.

Stay tuned.

Wil try to get some pics off my iPhone and post.

[brandon429]

Hey there, Id like to offer some tuning for your setup. can you post a full tank shot where the whole tank is shown not just a portion

 

there isn't usually ammonia associated with peroxide usage, people are about to start telling you its killing the filter bed and its not. We don't even know if the ammonia test is accurate, its the most misread/mistested kit in all of reefing. we see mis readings all the time, its highly likely you have no ammonia at all in a cycled tank.

 

try to post a fts standing back a bit so I can see everything.

 

in a tank this size Im wondering why we havent removed the rocks for external treatment which is always preferable to in tank runs...with the pics I'll be able to make a full analysis

[Pjanssen]

Hey there, Id like to offer some tuning for your setup. can you post a full tank shot where the whole tank is shown not just a portion

 

there isn't usually ammonia associated with peroxide usage, people are about to start telling you its killing the filter bed and its not. We don't even know if the ammonia test is accurate, its the most misread/mistested kit in all of reefing. we see mis readings all the time, its highly likely you have no ammonia at all in a cycled tank.

 

try to post a fts standing back a bit so I can see everything.

 

in a tank this size Im wondering why we havent removed the rocks for external treatment which is always preferable to in tank runs...with the pics I'll be able to make a full analysis

 

Not a great picture, I know. My main computer is down, so have to rely on iPhone pics.

Hey Brandon. Thanks for helping. I suspect the ammonia and nitrate spikes are because I did take one of the rocks out and scubbed the heck out of it with the peroxide, causing some die-off. There are only 2 rocks in the tank.

This morning the ammonia is still around .25. Nitrates up +5

The good news- the Dino's seem to look better. Water is really clear. Xenia and ric look like they are bouncing back. A few zoa polyps are opening. Fish are still swimming.

The bad news- clove polyps still closed up tight, and for the first time, my finger leather looks just a little off.

Getting ready to do another water change.

[Pjanssen]

A little bit better pic.

[skimlessinseattle]

Easiest way to beat dinoflagellates is to increase pH. There are some great articles on it where kalkwasser dosing solves the problem in days. Worked great on my 55g. I woulndnt recommend it though unless you use a calibrated probe to measure. I went from 8.0 to 8.5 with no coral or invert issues. In fact, everything looked better than before the dinos.

[brandon429]

That method has a lot of following. PH boosting and lights out are common actions

[Pjanssen]

I did forget to mention that I started adding a pH buffer a couple of days ago. It's not kalkwasser, just something I had on hand, I think it's seachams. Havnt tested the pH since I started. Will do that tonight when I get home. Had to do another water change this morni g due to ammonia and nitrates being elevated. A little concerned becaus a lot of the articles I'm reading say the Dino's feed off of the nutrients in the fresh salt water. Better than killing fish because of ammonia though.

[Pjanssen]

Progress:

Ammonia and nitrates are both down, with amm close to 0 and nitrates -5.

pH is up to 8.5 in the am. Will check again tonight to see how much it fluctuates. Plan to continue adding seachams marine buffer for a few days anyway.

Brown stuff is waning. Starting to to look more fuzzy than stringy and slimy. Don't think I'm going to take bottom rock out for scrubbing at this point. Going out of town for 2 days on Wednesday, and don't want to risk another amm spike while I'm gone. Plan to put tank in darkness while I'm gone, maybe I can erradicate the last of it that way.

Also plan to continue for a couple of weeks with the peroxide dosing.

Xenia, ric and zoas are definitely coming back. Still holding out hope for the cloves, but...finger leather looks good, I gave it 4 hours of light yesterday

Plan to check all other water params when I get home from work later today. Probably low on calcium, and who knows what the buffer is doing to the alkalinity.

Stay tuned

[Pjanssen]

Ok. After having the lights on for 5 hours, tested the water chemistry. I bought a new test kit today at LFS, red sea max ( it's what they had, and it's going back!). But anyway, to the best of my color matching abilities, here's what I have:

Temp 80

pH 8.0- 8.2. Really hard to differentiate colors. Plan to invest in leave in digital temp/ pH thingy mabob!

Alk 2.8 mil equ/ lit. I have a better alk tester, but used what came with the kit.

Amm. 0.25 pretty obvious color match

Nitrates 2.5- 5.0 again, colors too similar.

 

Brown stuff looks about the same.

 

My question: should I do another small water change tonight, and maybe one tomorrow before I go out of town and lights out four 3 days? Amm onia and nitrate levels aren't that high, but I won't be able to monitor for a few days if it does spike.

[brandon429]

You should change all of the water out if you have ammonia, allow none. The test kit is almost certainly wrong, there is none because there is no source of organic decay continuing, but to be safe change it. There is no amount or frequency of water changes that are too much for your nano.

 

having ammonia is a serious risk.

[Pjanssen]

well, i thought I had the problem under control. I was wrong. I never did the total darkness thing. kept up with peroxide dosing and pH buffer, and 4 hour lights on. it seemed like the problem was gone. Water very clear, no fuzz. no slime, etc. water params were good. continued with dosing for a couple more days for good measure. But Zoanthids and ric were not blooking great. Clove polyps never came back. stopped dosing, and started increasing lights to 8 hours a day. Ricordea almost immediately started looking better, and after a couple of days, the zoas all opened up and started getting better color.

 

Thought I was in the clear. After a few days, i noticed a little brown on the rock. didnt really seem like the dinos. i blew it off with turkey baster, and did a small water change. Next morning, full blown dinos, complete with little bubbles and slime.

 

Added buffer, peroxide. Lights out. blanket on. poor fish. im a day in a half in. one and a half to go.

seriously. what else can i do?!