'Drip' Water Changes?

[cchardwick]

Does anyone here do drip water changes? I'm considering getting some starfish and I hear that they are super sensitive to changes in water parameters. I'm guessing they are also sensitive to water changes as well? Does anyone here have starfish and if so, how do you do water changes?

[sogreedy23]

Does anyone here do drip water changes? I'm considering getting some starfish and I hear that they are super sensitive to changes in water parameters. I'm guessing they are also sensitive to water changes as well? Does anyone here have starfish and if so, how do you do water changes?

Match salinity and temp before changing water and you should be alright

[LarryMoeCurly]

Many, many people have starfish. As far as I know they do not need any special care as far as water parameters go. I have never even heard of drip water changes. Simply do about 20% wc at a time and you should be fine, that is what most people do, and it shouldn't shock the system too much.

[cchardwick]

SWEET. Thanks for the info.

 

I've actually heard of one drip system on a freshwater that ran continually and it had an overflow that led to a sink in the basement and it changed out 100% of the water every few days. I could actually do a freshwater like that here at home since I'm on well water.

[sogreedy23]

SWEET. Thanks for the info.

 

I've actually heard of one drip system on a freshwater that ran continually and it had an overflow that led to a sink in the basement and it changed out 100% of the water every few days. I could actually do a freshwater like that here at home since I'm on well water.

have you tested the TDS of that well water?

[cchardwick]

I haven't tested it but I know it's sky high, great for african cichlids but not good for a saltwater tank. I use bottled distilled water for my nano.

 

[cchardwick]

I've done some surfing on the net and I'm surprised no one out there has a continual drip water change system, especially for the nano cubes. I have a six gallon cube, which really only has five gallons of water in it, and I could put two 15 gallon containers under the tank, perhaps build them into the stand and mix saltwater in one tank and have the other for the waste water. With a continual drip water change I could change 100% or more of the water every month and it would last three months between refills. Just set it and go. You probably wouldn't even need a heater in the new saltwater because of the slow influx. And if you did it right you could adjust the salinity of the new salt a bit lower to account for evaporation. No more topping off, no more water changes every week, no protein skimmer needed, and less bio and chemical filtration as well. And most likely, no more water testing because you are replenishing all your trace elements. With a higher flow of maybe 300% water change every month you could really pack some fish in there and the system would remove all of the waste, and the drip replacement would be gentle on the system. It would open up a new fish/invert combo frontier. Maybe just a powerhead in the new salt mix to keep it fresh and an alarm to tell you when the salt mix is low. Good idea, no?

[d9hp]

Great idea...extremely difficult to pull off. You have to remember that pumping water back up into the tank is the only way to account for the constant drip removal rate. That doesn't sound like a big deal...just stick a pump on a timer and bingo. Unfortunately that's only partially true. You'll need a peristaltic dosing pump with a constant output. Regular pumps fluctuate a ton and wouldn't work. This means you'd either need an ATO valve pumping water back into the tank at random intervals based on the drainage rate or a $100 pump that you dial in to match the drip rate exactly.

 

It's been discussed quite a bit actually...it's just very difficult to manage and it's almost not worth it once you get the water change procedure down. Also, you'll always have to test your water. I've been trying to get out of that for ages but nothing is going to change the need to know what's going on in the tank. I wish it wasn't the case.

 

If you pulled it off it would certainly be awesome...and would save you from needing a skimmer and what not.

 

Also, you would need a heater and a powerhead in the freshly mixed jug of saltwater to keep the pH where you wanted it. Maybe an airstone too to oxygenate the water adequately before adding it to the tank.

[cchardwick]

Yes, I was thinking you would need at least a $100 pump to get the flow consistent. Airstone / heater / powerhead sounds about right too. My mind is racing now.......

 

I was thinking one could drill a hole in the back plastic part of the nanocube, install a hose and have it drain from there. If it didn't work it could easily be plugged.

[sogreedy23]

Interesting, though I'm not sure of the effectiveness of this VS traditional waterchanges in respect to removing wastes. I guess it would depend on your drip rate but i don't think it will be as efficient since sometimes you'll be removing some of the newer water. By changing the same amount per month (5 gal), which is 1.25 (25%) per week, I think your 'trates would be lower than if you continually changed 5 gal over that same month.

 

Even with this it wouldn't be smart to "pack some fish in there" because of the territorial reasons an at the end of the day it not like you are sumped, you still only have 5 gal in your close environment

 

Edit: what I would do is have it set up te same way you're saying w the buckets, but set it on a weekly timer where it pulls the water out first then replenishes it.. Maybe even twice a week but this would be more effective, IMO. this is just a simple auto waterchanger solution though.

[cchardwick]

Actually I just found a peristaltic pump for $30 with free shipping that is new and for aquariums. On the low setting it will pump 2.3 gallons per day. That's a 100% water change every two days! Here's a link:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Aquarium-Peristaltic-P...=item415805446b

[mikellini]

I think Randy Holmes-Farley wrote an article on this, and from memory it was almost always better to change large amounts of water less frequently than to change small amounts more frequently (or continuously). It's in reefkeeping magazine somewhere

[cchardwick]

I think I found the article online and if you look at say Nitrate depletion over a number of water changes compared to the size of a water change, yes the larger water changes will get rid of more nitrates. Do a 100% water change all at once and it will get rid of everything, but it will surely stress all your organisms and in fact may kill some from the shock of small differences of a bunch of parameters, temp, pH, salinity, etc.. A continuous water replacement system would not be as effective as large water changes but I think it would allow daily 100% water changes with no risk to invertebrates. I believe a slow drip system would be preferrable especially if you are talking about inverts that are very sensitive such as starfish where the experts will tell you to acclimate them to your tank with a drip system.

 

I just had a thought about the peristaltic pumps. You could buy two of them and run one into your tank with fresh saltwater at a slower rate than the one pumping out of the tank and keep both tubes at the same level in the tank, just at surface level. No holes, and small lines running into your tank, now that's easy and a full setup would be only $60. And the lines are so small you could run them just about anywhere. I think I'm going to give it a try!

[mikellini]

With a 'drip' or continuous change system, you can never do a 100% water change because if you have, say, a ten gallon tank and drip 10 gallons in and out in one day, you haven't changed all of the original water. You've probably changed somewhere around half. Also, the longer you take to change the water (3 days instead of 1), the less of the original water you change per day. It's really not an efficient setup, that's why nobody does it. You'd have to mix, heat and aerate more than twice as much water, constantly, to get the same effect as a ten minute water change once per week. Of course, changing too much at once is bad also as you said, it can disturb your inhabitants. But it is unquestionably better to lean more toward larger than smaller water changes; 20-25% is usually the sweet spot

[cchardwick]

This is what "Randy Holmes-Farley" had to say about it in his article online. He actually does his water changes this way:

 

Continuous water changes: Continuous water changes, despite their name, are not necessarily performed every minute of every day. The distinguishing feature of these changes is that water is added at the same time that it is removed. The actual rate of addition can be high or low. Reef aquarists (myself included) most often perform these types of water changes with two matched pumps, one that removes the old water and one that adds the new water. Often these pumps are part of the same mechanism (such as two sets of tubing on a peristaltic pump or two heads on a diaphragm pump), but that is not a requirement. I use a dual head diaphragm pump capable of a maximum of 30 gallons per day for each head (a Reef Filler pump from Champion Lighting). In my setup, once I have a 44-gallon trash can full of new salt water, all I do to perform a 44 gallon or smaller water change is plug in the pump. The wastewater is sent down the drain. Sometimes I change 44 gallons in one shot, taking about a day and a half. Sometimes I pump for a few hours at a time, and then wait for a few days.

 

These changes are slightly less efficient than single batch water changes of the same total volume. A continuous water change of 30% exactly matches one batch 26% water change. As with very small batch water changes, these have the advantage of neither stressing the organisms (assuming the change is done reasonably slowly), nor altering the water level in the aquarium. The ease of doing such changes automatically also makes it far more likely that busy or lazy aquarists will actually do them.

[mikellini]

Hmmm. That's not what he said in reefkeeping magazine. Or it wasn't him I'm thinking of. But it doesn't even make sense that 30% matches 26%. Think about it

[sogreedy23]

What are you trying to accomplish that you'd need to change that much water that often in a 6 gal? I don't think you'll see any benefit in continuously changing 70 gallons over the course of a month versus 25% weekly changes. If your water changes are done correctly (mixing in a bucket with a powerhead and heater for a few hours or a day) then there won't be any shock to your inverts or any inhabitants because you've matched temp, salinity and ph with the old water. Changing almost half your water everyday won't pose any benefits to speak of. You still have the limitations of having a 6gal and and those water changes won't change that..still have those limitations.

[cchardwick]

No, it's not that I want to pump 70 gallons through my 6 gallon nano, it's that I can do large water changes and have no impact on my sensitive inverts. A lot of people say, oh you can't keep this anemone alive for more than a year, or it's impossible to keep starfish (or whatever) long term, etc.. I believe that many sensitive inverts are wiped out by 25% water changes that have the salinity off a little bit that one time where you get a little careless in matching exact conditions. The drip system would also be great for uncured live rock. You could then pump 70 gallons through there and keep the ammonia and other stuff from spiking and killing everything else and you could save a bunch of stuff otherwise lost.

[sogreedy23]

There should be no animals in a tank with uncured liverock, that means that the tank isn't cycled yet. Stability and sensitivity isn't the only reason you can't keep a star..you can't keep that star because of it's diet and there are varying levels of success. Some stars feed off the film algae that is present in the tank, some stars have unknown diets any they simply won't last. It's really nothing personal, if you want one you need an established and mature tank that is more than your 6 gal. Just because the water parameters are more stable doesn't mean it's stomach is full, they slowly starve. If you're concerned about the stability that much your better bet would just be to sump the set up.

 

As for the nem you speak of, they literally get bigger than your tank and if you're feeding it, then water quality tends to sour real fast. Lack of stability in a small environment? The point is Sometimes parameters are what will kill the animal, but it's other things too such as territories and just space. Picos have tons of limitations.

 

If your 25% water change is .001 higher than your tank water, even .002 (which shouldnt even really happen when mixing correctly), isn't that much in the grand scheme of things because that raises the overall salinity of the tank by .00025-.0005 max. That is not enough to kill even the most sensitive of inverts.

 

Your set up is interesting, but I would use it to change the water once a week. First turn the waste pump on for like half a day to pull about 1.15 gal out, then put the new water in. If you do it simultaneously the efficiency of it goes down and you end up wasting water with no real benefit. I don't think there is a benefit of adding water that slow either tbh.

[sean151]

The peristaltic pumps aren't made to run this way, that's why it's so uncommon. Many people have looked into it, even called the CSR of the companies to all hear that the pumps aren't made for continuous use because it will burn out the motor faster.

[nibor]

Many starfish don't survive long term due to dietary deficiencies/starvation. A continual water change will likely not address this problem. What sort of starfish do you want to keep?

[cchardwick]

Actually I just bought five pounds of fantastic purple live rock fully cured and it came with several teeny tiny starfish! The largest one is about the size of a head of a pencil and they are white. It will be interesting if they survive. The tank has been set up for just over a week and so far everything is doing great, my mushrooms are really starting to open up. I have small snails and clams that came with the rock as well as some brittle stars. I'll take a photo tomorrow and post a pic.

[sogreedy23]

Actually I just bought five pounds of fantastic purple live rock fully cured and it came with several teeny tiny starfish! The largest one is about the size of a head of a pencil and they are white. It will be interesting if they survive. The tank has been set up for just over a week and so far everything is doing great, my mushrooms are really starting to open up. I have small snails and clams that came with the rock as well as some brittle stars. I'll take a photo tomorrow and post a pic.

Asterinas will live

[HecticDialectics]

Asterinas will live

 

 

Yup, sounds like asterinas to me.

[dubbly]

Well. I have had a continous water change system running for 3 years on my BC14 and love it. I set it to change out about 2.5g per week. All I do is dump new water in the holding bucket and dump the old water out. Done... super easy. I never forget or get lazy that way. I use a perasaltic pump that I got on ebay for about 55 bucks. Works great. I don't worry about stressing out fish. Tempature or anything because it doesn't matter. All I care about is making sure that the salinity is wtihin the acceptable range.

 

Cheers,

Ben