20h

[Victa]

fijian islands are being washed away by the heavy export and harvest of their live rock. yet people still buy fiji live rock..... thats a topic to be debated about

[Whitten]

IT has been proven time and again, by many of the ichtheologiest. Fish lack bask neurons in their nerve endings to transmit anthing more than pressure. Fish sense pressure, and react to it, that is it. depending upon the the intensity, and the stress of which the animal is expereienceing will determine what that fish will do in reaction. It the same reason why fishing is not considered to be in humane, nor is the capture of wild specimines to be placed in cpative. Fish behave totally on instinct, they cannot feel love, kinship or even hatred. All they can do is remember if something cause them stressor or if it is a norm in life. You may disagree, and that is fine, but I know my information comes from some very valuble sources that have been in both the field of basic game fish and marine biology long before any of us were even born. Now that being said does it make it right for someone to tourture a fish? No, as stewards on this planet it is our duty to take car of these animals. They are ours to take car of and to use at our will. That doesn't mean that we should destroy their habitat, or capture every one, brecasue that wouldn't be responsible. It means that we have the ability to enjoy this hobby, because we are all responible enough to take care of the animals that we are attempting to keep in captive. As long as a fish can carry out it's basic life functions, and swim freely without being hindered in movement it will be fine. If it becomes stressed it is most likely due to outside factors. And even those can occur in a 90 gallon tank. The truth is that keeping the fish in a 20 isn't going to kill that fish any faster unless the water changes arn't done regularly.

[LITTLEFISHEE]

Whitten, read this and tell me how you can say that fish lack the basic neurons to form pain receptors. If a vertebrate has a CNS and can feel any type of phsyical feeling (not emotion), doesn't it make sense that the vertebrate would contain neurons? If a fish has the capability to feel pressure, why not pain? Do you have a link to something I could read to prove me otherwise?

 

http://www.umaine.edu/aquaculture/GeneralI...system_main.htm

[Cellenzweig]

As long as a fish can carry out it's basic life functions, and swim freely without being hindered in movement it will be fine. If it becomes stressed it is most likely due to outside factors. And even those can occur in a 90 gallon tank. The truth is that keeping the fish in a 20 isn't going to kill that fish any faster unless the water changes arn't done regularly.

 

Do you have any clue what you are talking about?

 

First - The tank size requirement has NOTHING to do with space when keeping a Mandarin. A mandarin needs a large volume of water OR IT WILL STARVE! A 20g tank cannot possible sustaine the population of Copepods that a Mandarin would require. You need a LARGE tank with lots of well-established live rock. Also, a refugium is almost a requirement if you want to produce that many pods. So yes, a small tank WILL kill a mandarin quickly.

 

Second - A twenty gallon tank is less than 1/3 the required size for a Tang. This means that there is the same bio-load on less than 1/3 of the water (3 times the concentration of nutrients) and less than 1/3 the live rock (1/3 of the filtration). You would have to change about 1/2 the water every week just to dilute the nutrients to keep the fish alive.

 

Third - Any water column under about 50g is very unstable (hence why nanos are more work than large tanks). In a 20g tank, a small spike in nutrients may stress sensitive fish (ie Powder Blue Tang), causing disease. However, in a large water column, there is enough volume to dilute the nutrients to a safe level.

 

So when all is said and done, yes, an undersized tank WILL kill fish quicker.

 

Now that that is said - While I do support researching any animal you plan to buy, I DO NOT agree that bashing someone for their mistakes is right. The guy likely walked into the LFS and was told that it would be ok. I've seen a LFS sell someone a tank, substrate, rock, etc... AS WELL AS 2 seahorses. The guy said "sure the seahorses will be fine, just make sure your salinity and temperature are right." This is where the real problem lies. Many of the LFS's will say anything to make a sale. What may seem to be common sense to experienced reef-keepers can be very confusing to someone just getting into the hobby. Remember how much there was to learn when you first started out? (There is still so much to learn) Give the guy a break. At least he has recognized the problem and is planning to replace the fish with clowns.

[Cellenzweig]

Whitten - I agree! Can you back this up in any way?

[Simbo18]

Cellenzweig. Water volume has nothing to do with keeping a mandrian. Only surface area is required....... pods don't swim in the water column, do they? I plan keeping a mandrian in a 5 gallon very shortly, it can be done.

 

Again, water volume has nothing to do with how much bio load the tank can handle. It's the surface area that enables more anaerobic bacteria to grow. Not the water column. So more surface area=more anerobic bacteria..... as long as there is something for it to break down/feed on.

 

Whitten, I also agree. I'll see what my dad can pull up on the internet/book about it since he has his masters in reef fish.

 

Luke

[mogurnda]

Fish lack bask neurons in their nerve endings to transmit anthing more than pressure.

That's pure nonsense. Here's one recent abstract from PubMed, and there's a lot more.

 

Proc R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 2003 Jun 7;270(1520):1115-21.

 

Do fishes have nociceptors? Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system.

 

Sneddon LU, Braithwaite VA, Gentle MJ.

 

Roslin Institute, Welfare Biology, Roslin, Midlothian EH25 9PS, UK. lsneddon@liverpool.ac.uk

 

Nociception is the detection of a noxious tissue-damaging stimulus and is sometimes accompanied by a reflex response such as withdrawal. Pain perception, as distinct from nociception, has been demonstrated in birds and mammals but has not been systematically studied in lower vertebrates. We assessed whether a fish possessed cutaneous nociceptors capable of detecting noxious stimuli and whether its behaviour was sufficiently adversely affected by the administration of a noxious stimulus. Electrophysiological recordings from trigeminal nerves identified polymodal nociceptors on the head of the trout with physiological properties similar to those described in higher vertebrates. These receptors responded to mechanical pressure, temperatures in the noxious range (more than 40 degrees C) and 1% acetic acid, a noxious substance. In higher vertebrates nociceptive nerves are either A-delta or C fibres with C fibres being the predominating fibre type. However, in the rainbow trout A-delta fibres were most common, and this offers insights into the evolution of nociceptive systems. Administration of noxious substances to the lips of the trout affected both the physiology and the behaviour of the animal and resulted in a significant increase in opercular beat rate and the time taken to resume feeding, as well as anomalous behaviours. This study provides significant evidence of nociception in teleost fishes and furthermore demonstrates that behaviour and physiology are affected over a prolonged period of time, suggesting discomfort.

[LITTLEFISHEE]

Okay Simbo, how much live rock will you be keeping in this 5 gallon tank? How much sand? IMO and I'm sure I'm not alone, a small tank can't provide food for a mandarin throughout the duration of it's life. You can't have enough live rock and sand in a 5 gallon to support a mandarin. I don't think it can be done, but if your Dad has the extra $ to throw away so you can perform an experiment, I've got an extra $20 that says that fish won't live for 6 months.

 

I agree with Cell about bashing someone for making a mistake, I am just very dissappointed that with all of the resources on nano-reef.com, this is still an issue. The first thing I learned when I started reefkeeping was to never trust a LFS salesperson. I wish that az-nano would post again so I could apologize for my first reply. It wasn't the tang that got to me it was the mandarin.

[Blinkgyrl2987]

Az-nano:

I think you have a great start with your aquascaping of rocks already in there. they are unique, I like the cave look you have started... You should go ahead and pick up more live rock and fool around with it until you have a whole underwater world for your future fish. Take it slow... and if possible return your fish.... give it sometime and then when its cycled and you have a good clean up crew add a shrimp or something for interest...

It was hard for me to resist the temptation to add fish right away.... well heck its been 4 months! and I May MAY! be adding my first fish this weekend.... and trust me I think all my hard work will have paid off by then. I hope you have a joyful experience in this hobby..... just be patient. Another fun thing to do is wait till after your cycle is over.. and then one at a time.... like every month add a new coral.... I did this with my tank and its fun to watch your tank slowly develop into a beautiful reef.. this way you can also watch to make sure your corals are doing okay before adding the next one..... Thats just an idea though.. I like to have a little environment going before throwing a fish into a tank full of rocks.

Well anyways hope this helps.. megan

[Cellenzweig]

What are you talking about?!?!? Surface area has NOTHING to do with it. Water volume has EVERYTHING to do with it. Surface area is ONLY important in regards to gas exchange. Pods swim almost EXCLUSIVELY in the water column and are rarely at the surface. Infact, they spand most of their time hiding in the rockwork. On top of that, the pods will only breed if there is enough food supply and space. There is no way that any tank under 50g could support enough pods (thousands) to feed a mandarin. If you do some research, you will very quickly find that mandarins are VERY difficult to keep and 90+% of the mandarins sold die in the first 3 months.

 

Again, water volume has nothing to do with how much bio load the tank can handle. It's the surface area that enables more anaerobic bacteria to grow. Not the water column. So more surface area=more anerobic bacteria..... as long as there is something for it to break down/feed on.

 

Honestly, you are making yourself look pretty stupid. You obviously know NOTHING about keeping marine aquariums. Do you know what "anerobic" means? It means "without oxygen". Why would surface volume affect the working of bacteria that work "without oxygen". Anerobic bacteria is found INSIDE your live rock - where there is NO OXYGEN. That is why live rock is so important in a marine tank - it IS your filter. More surface area = more gas exchange, nothing more!

[Whitten]

I do have support for my information. I have access to several Marine biologist, as well as a fisheries school. I have on several occasions talked with these Dr.s, and professors over many of the above issues with keeping fish. I am not going to explain out all of there reasoning behind their research because we would all be here for an eternity. The fact that some of you find information on this site or any other on the internet for that matter to be absolute fact or truth baffles me. I am not saying that all of the info on the internet is total bs but a majority is research and not fact. Research changes...theorys change, but what has been proven to be true time and again will not for the most part change. Just becuase the latest research results may point in a differnt direction, does not make that the truth. The fact remains that what has been taught for years still holds true due to lack of un abscured evidence. Good for you, you can go on the internet and drag up an article that supports your theory. I can pull out books and professor, and doctors that can disprove it. I don't care how many of you are Marine biologist or ichtheologist. The general consesous is what I posted above, and alluding to the fact that I don't know what I am talking about, or am stupid becuase of what research that I have actuall y done, makes you look foolish, childish, and down right spiteful. Books are great, but reading them and the internet doesn't make you an expert, and neither does searching for info on google. Don't dis credit someone until you know and understand their their facts, and principals.

[Isaka]

I love this stuff

 

"My dad has a masters in Reef Fish"

 

"I have access to several Marine biologist, as well as a fisheries school."

 

You guys convinced me

[mogurnda]

[edited to be more civil]

To get an idea of my credentials: I am a PhD Neurobiologist. My job is to do research, publish that research, criticize others' research when asked to do so by journals, and teach students and postdocs how do do research. I find it odd that a layperson is telling me about the nature of scientific evidence, somehow implying that hearsay is more valid than citations in peer-reviewed journals.

 

The published literature is how science is disseminated. If it's not in print, it essentially doesn't exist. Please back your statements up with a little more.

 

I have lots of friends who study fish nervous systems too. Maybe we know some of the same people.

[LITTLEFISHEE]

I agree with Mo, what Whitten says holds no water because it's hearsay. If you post a link or two from a highly regarded scientific journal my opinion (and that of others) may be persuaded to change.

However, it's true that you can't believe everything you read. That's why you look towards the highly educated professionals who dedicate their work to proving or disproving a theory.

As far as this debate goes I'm over it, I don't want to play I'm smarter than you are anymore. I'd just like to know more on the subject. (I think that's how you bow out gracefully?)

[mogurnda]

Here's one more. I have to dredge out my comparative neurobiology text to get the older stuff.

 

Veterinary Clin North Am Exot Anim Pract. 2001 Jan;4(1):19-33. Related Articles,

Fish, amphibian, and reptile analgesia.

 

Machin KL.

 

Department of Veterinary Biomedical Sciences, Western College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. karen.machin@.usask.ca

 

Pain perception and appropriate behavioral responses are important for survival. The conservation of the opioid ligand and receptor suggests evolution of opioid receptors mediating antinociception throughout vertebrate phylogeny. Fish, amphibians, and reptiles have appropriate neurologic components, display the appropriate behavior in response to a painful stimulus, and possess antinociceptive mechanisms to modulate pain. Because pain perception in these species is therefore likely to be analogous to that of mammals, invasive and painful procedures should always be accompanied by appropriate analgesia and anesthesia. Although specific doses have not been established in clinical trials, clinicians should attempt to provide lower vertebrates with appropriate analgesia during painful procedures. Further experimental and clinical investigations are necessary to expand the current veterinary literature in the area of pain and analgesia in lower vertebrates such as fish, amphibians, and reptiles.

[Simbo18]

Cellenzweig, I do apolgize for saying "surface area". I meant the surface area underwater (I don't know what to call it), also known as the glass, rocks, sand. I didn't make my self clear. Sorry.

 

LOL, how could you assume that I meant water surface area....???? (it had never been mentioned) LOL!!!! Water volume has absolutely nothing to do with pods or anerobic bacteria. Since when have you seen the pods freely swimming?? Maybe at night every once in a while but not very often......

And yes, I'm not a duma$$, anaerobic bacteria is what makes the DSB work.

 

My 5 gallon is plenty capable of keeping a mandrian and if not I will just move him to my 75 gallon that the five is plumbed into........ I need to do some experiments befor I go through with the mandrian like measuring out an inch on one part of my glass and counting how many pods are located in that one spot for about a month. From there I would be able to get an estimate of how many pods I have per square inch in there. From what I've read mandrians only consume 150-200 pods a day, but then "pods" is so widespread, I don't know if they are talking about amphipods or copepods? Any one know?

 

Isaka, if you would stop selecting phrases out of peoples post and stop hearing what you want to hear maybe you could be pursuaded. I anounced that my dad had a masters in fish only to show that he might know of a liable source to prove or disprove what littlefishee stated earlier.

 

Luke

[Reefer_Buddha]

Well i looked at this thread a few days ago and saw the tang and knew it would be trouble. Aznano, you have a good tank but a tang in it is not good, at least not on this site. Good aquascaping and i dig it.

 

Now for the rest of you jackasses. You need to drop the egos and stop jackin this thread. Show some intellect and stop bickering about who knows the most and the mandarin/tang police. This kinda crap is unacceptable and shows total disrespect to the originator of this thread. So lets put a cork in the whines here and just drop it. If youre going to post then post something postitive or at least constructive not "my intellectual penis is bigger than yours".

[mogurnda]

Sorry. Just pushed a button for me.

[Whitten]

Well I too am guilty just as much as anyone of all of the above. Sorry for the flame and back to the tank. Yet again we can all be humbled by the fact that we know so much, and yet we know so little. My Intelectual penis is still growing, and if I have my stuff straight I am guess so is everyone elses. Good deal, now lets all relax....this supposed to be our hobby, and I never intended to have to drag mogurnda back into work once he got home from annalyzing scientific study. By the way I am at Auburn University, so if you know a few of the professors there I might be able to put two and two together. Anthony Moss was my professor some time back, as well as Johnathan Armbruster.

[Simbo18]

Well, looks like I am most to blame for the bad course this thread took because I laughed at a member of the tang police. So I am truely sorry. If you disagree with something I said PM me.

 

az-nano, that aquascaping is unreal!! Keep up the good work. And please do take the mandrian back, or give it to someone with a larger tank. Thanks!!

 

Luke

[Cellenzweig]

Hey Simbo,

 

LOL, how could you assume that I meant water surface area....? (it had never been mentioned) LOL!!!! Water volume has absolutely nothing to do with pods or anerobic bacteria. Since when have you seen the pods freely swimming?? Maybe at night every once in a while but not very often......

 

When you say "surface area" when talking about aquariums, you are usually referring to the surface of the water. You never mentioned rock. That's obviously why I thought you were implying that anerobic bacteria was on the surface of the water. LoL, no wonder I thought you didn't know $#!^.

 

My 5 gallon is plenty capable of keeping a mandrian and if not I will just move him to my 75 gallon that the five is plumbed into........

 

You never mentioned that your 5g aquarium was part of an 80g water column. So you do have sufficient water volume & the pods are able to move between tanks. This is a completely different situation. You have to agree that there is no chance a mandarin could survive in a 5g water column.

 

Like you said - if it comes down to rock surface area, there is no way you could fit enough rocks in a 5g.

 

BTW - mandarins eat copepods

 

Colin

[Simbo18]

PMed you, I've destroyed this thread enough.:*(

 

Luke

[Whitten]

I have a funny story tagged along with a good ending. I went into one of the scetchiest fish stores this side of Auburn. When I got there i proceeded to check out there saltwater fish collection. What I found absolutly made me furious. They had 10 gallon tank filled with yellow tangs, and Mandrin gobys. I understood the fact that the fish were all small and that they were only there temporarly, but what made me the maddest was the fact that they didn't have any type of substrate and only two small pieces of live rock. When I asked the lady how they kept the Madrins alive she told me that they eat the LR. I laughed my ass off to say the least. I then asked her if she ment that they ate the small little copopods that thrived on the LR and she told me that they were a rare breed of fish that feed upon only fiji LR. What made me angriest was that when I asked her how much they wanted for the fish she told me 50 a piece. That is rediculous to pay for a Mandrin, but for a fish that is sure to die within a week it is really rediculous. After explaining all of this to her she got mad at me and told me I had no idea what I was talking about, I just shrugged and said maybe not, but those fish will die unless you get them in a tank full of copopods. Well a week went by and I checked back into the store, when I came in the lady asked me again what it was that Mandrins ate and I told her. She then told me that two days after I left all of the Mandrins got really sickly looking so they gave them away. I was mad that I didn't get one cause I know that I ahve a good home waiting, but glad they didn't die in that sleazy fish store.

 

On a good note the LFS in montogomery has a great selection of Mandins. They get them in once a week and have a 85% success rate in getting them to eat cyclopeeze. The ones that won't eat cyclopeeze they sell for 15 dollars to only those who have 50 or larger tanks. But the ones that will eat it get sold for 25 with a big pack of the same frozen food that they feed them in the store. Good news to me, since I have a 30 gallon that I plan on putting a mandrin in some day. Until then I am working on becoming ole Mc Whitten and raising the tank to be a pod farm.

[Whitten]

No you haven't....I have look at me I swear. In the words of Jocque I am ashamed.

[1fish2fish]

Reefer... great post.

We need to those who are new to the hobby rather than chase them away. Bickering doesn't help. Sujestions and advice does.

 

Aznano.. It looks like things are comming along. As has been mentioned you may want to decrease your bioload for the time being until your tank is broken in. I totally understand the desire to have a fully stocked and flourishing tank, but they only get that way with time and patience. Take your time. When adding your fish I would recommend only adding one at a time and give the tank a week or two between additions to settle again. This allows the system to acclimate to the increased load without too great a spike, which means less stress on the animals and a healthier environment. This will result in greater success for yourself and agreater enjoyment of the hobby (nobody likes to have things go wrong). If you take it slow you will actually see your tank come to life. Every day you will notice something new popping up out of hte rocks.

 

In general the most proven method seems to be to cycle your tank, add the cleanup crew to take care of the inevitable post cycle algae infestation (blue leg hermits and snails mostly) and then add the higher life forms and maybe some corals if that is the direction you are headed.

 

As far as fish choice goes you should always make sure that your tank can support their eating habits and size requirements. Your tank is rather new and therefore will have limited copepods and amphipods. Since these are pretty much all that the mandarins eat it is likely that your little friend will not be able to find enough food. As mentioned, the number of copepods and amphipods that a system can produce is generally related to the substrate surface area. This is the surface of all the rocks, glass and gravel. Even the holes in the rock. Because of the limited substrate surface area found in most nano reefs it is difficult (though not entirely impossible) for the system to produce enough food for such an animal. In any case the tank needs to be much more mature to have possibility of providing enough food.

 

The tang is a grazer and will also outgrow the tank rather rapidly. As your tank is fairly new the macroalgae needed by this fish is not yet present. The diet of a tang can be supplimented with other items. Many people swear by spinach or letuce, but these are land based plants and do not have the needed essential omega 3 fatty acid required by all marine organisms. I recommend using dried kelp or nori (the stuff they wrap sushi in). Tangs are also a little on the snesitive side and may not weather teh rollercoaster water quality of a newer system.

 

With regard to the gold striped maroon clowns. They are very cool, but just be aware that they can get pretty large and very aggressive. This is a concern for any other inhabitants. This isn't to say that clowns are a bad idea, just be aware that it could limit you in the future.

 

The best advice I can give would be to take all but 1 of the fish out. I would probably leave the yellow goby in there if I were to choose one. Build up slowly. You did not mention if you were plannng ot keep corals or not. You will also want to make sure that any fish you get are coral friendly.

 

Please do not be turned off by the ominous direction this thread has taken. You will find that reefers tend to be quite passionate about the hobby and of course as with everything else in the world there are always different points of view.

 

To everyone else. Please try to be constructive and give advice and help rather than berating newcommers. We have all made our mistakes. We have all lost animals to those mistakes. Lets share our experience and wisdom in a constructive manner.

 

Good luck with the tank Aznano.

Some minor changes will save you a bit of heartache and frustration, but a nice start. If you have any questions and can't find what you need with search feel free to PM me with a question or just ask in the open forum.

 

/edit: Az I just did a search under your name and saw your 6 gallon. Nice tank. From that I assume that much of the above advice is not necesary, but it stands none the less. patience will get you further in the long run.