Ultra Cheap Nano-Reef : Please help.

[Laeelin]

The Goal:

 

My goal is to have a reef tank in my office.

 

 

The Problem:

 

I'm broke. I have a wife with a medical problem causing her a lot of pain, leaving me taking care of her and our son. That cuts into work hours, and leaves money very very very tight.

 

 

==============================

 

 

I've been reading about nano tanks, and I'm hoping that I can scrape a system together. I'm thinking something like a 2.5 gallon with a goby and pistol shrimp.

 

 

 

My plan is to do this is stages...

 

 

Stage 1: ($67 total)

 

Cueing minimum..

 

1) Tank($10.00)

 

2) Heater($10.00)

 

3) Thermometer($2.00)

 

4) "Old style" hanging filter($0.00) - cant remember what it's called, but I hope ya'll know what I'm talking about. It was used in a friends old 10gal(or was it 20?) aquarium, and I figure I could place the Thermometer and Heater in it so that they are out of the main tank, and it could provide water movement. I do have power heads if needed, but do I even want one with the hanging filter mentioned above? (after all, this is just a 2.5 gallon.)

 

6) Salt mix($10.00)

 

7) 3lbs? Live Rock ($15?)

 

8) 2lbs? Live Sand ($10?)

 

9) Test kits ($10.00) - Will I need to test for anything other than ammonia, nitrite/nitrate

 

 

Stage 2: ($35? total)

 

 

1) Cleanup Crew (???) - I have not found much information yet on how many of what to add after the tank cycles (snails, crabs, ect)

2) Lighting(~$20) - I plan to use the 19W 6500k PC's for sell at home depo for ~$6.00

 

 

 

 

 

Stage 4: ($40? total)

 

Add Life.. (that didn't come from live rock/sand)

 

1) Goby($??)

 

2) Pistol Shrimp($??)

 

3) Start shopping for coral fragments.($??)

 

 

=======================================================================

 

Grand total: $142

 

I don't know that this is even possible, but as far as I can tell it's the only way I'll get a reef tank in the next 5 years (I've already waited 3 years, and I'd like to at least get something started.)

 

But I have a couple questions about it:

 

Should I have the tank well lit from the start, or will room light be enough till after the cycle? ..

Should I get a 5.5gal or 10gal tank instead? .. I would not be able to afford enough rock to completely fill it for a while, but if i started with just a couple pounds?

 

Any suggestions?

 

please remember: PRICE is my primary problem... Till my wife is doing better, the money is just not going to be there.. So if you have any suggestions for making it cheaper please let me know.. If I'm skimping on something to much, please let me know what you think as well..

 

 

I do understand that opinions are what I'm asking for, so suggest away =D

 

 

ps: Also posted at: http://www.reeflounge.com/forum/viewtopic....p?p=58149#58149

 

Thanks-

[dyazdani]

I'm doing the same thing for my office. Given your situation, I would not get a 2.5G. if you run into an emergency, the lack of attention to the tank even for a day or two could be a disaster.

 

I'd get a 10G and a mix of live rock and "non-live" rock. It will take a little longer, but eventually, you will get corraline and other life growing on the non-live rock. I did this in my big reef tank to save money, it worked really well.

 

The way I'm saving money is to take my time. For example, I may cycle my tank with the lights off, so I can save up over the next month or so before I drop $100 on the lights.

 

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[Laeelin]

Thank you -

 

I really like the idea of mixing live/non live rock because that lets me get the 10gal, and I would rather a 10 gal anyway. =)

 

The 2.5 would have more danger of something going wrong, more expensive parts, harder to keep up, but another $120 in live rock/sand would push the 10 gal out of my reach (or so I thought) .. But that would give me the best of both worlds, and allow me to put in more variety (after all, this nano tank will be the only tank I have)

 

Hmm....

 

I could get the tank/lights, and non live rock/sand first and set that up nicely with freshwater (just to have some water in it), and then later get the live rock/sand and actually cycle the tank.

 

What should I look for when getting "non-live rock" and "non-live sand"?

 

Thanks

 

edit: corrected spelling

[Jim J]

Hey, Laeelin

 

I think that is doable, but go slow. Rushing any stage will result in dieoffs=replacement=$$$.

 

I just started using the 19w/6500k bulbs as a test on one of my 10g nanos. So far I am very pleased with the results. My polyps and shroom (only corals in that tank) are opening very full and the light level in the tank appears to be very high. As this test has just started, I dont know what to expect in the long run.

 

I am now assembling a 30G with 10G sump system for soft coral growout and am planning to use 6X19w/6500K CF twisties with 1X30w actinic 03 tube. Hope to post some pics soon.

 

I may reconsider the Goby/Pistol shrimp combo, though. To really enjoy their true nature, you would need a deeper sand bed that is stable (dont want the hole to collapse) or a short piece of PVC pipe to provide a home for them (IMHO). Also, since you are limiting your LR/LS, you need to keep the biomass low, Gobies can get pretty big (saw a 5+incher at the LFS last week). Most shrimp dont withstand swinging water conditions very well and if you dont do frequent water changes you may loose one very fast(IME).

 

As far as salt, dont get a box for 10G just to save money short term, get a bag for 50G (only costs about twice what the little 10G box does) b/c you are gonna need it for w/c. Dont skimp on water quality, either. Get RO or RO/DI, DONT USE TAPWATER!

 

Tank size, stick with a 10G if you have room for it. It is more stable. Spend a little extra for a GOOD submersible heater (50w). Cheap heaters fail=replacement=cost more than a good one.

 

I agree completely with Dyazdani about the rock. A couple of pieces of good quality LR will eventually seed the dead rock, like he said, it just takes time (and less than you might think). Also dead sand can be seeded with a little live sand spread on top of it.

 

Corals, plan on sticking with softies, zoos and shrooms due to the 6500K lights, and plan on feeding them plankton every few days.

 

Test kits, the 3 basic tests will get you by to start with, but a master kit that includes calcium and alk may cost less than you think.

 

Clean up crew, after the tank cycles, you will need to add 5 or so snails and 4 or 5 hermits (IMO) to deal with the algea. Try to stay away from turbo snails though. They will put a hurtin' on algea, but they are like a bull in a china shop.

 

I really believe you can do this, but you have to be patient. Make a plan (appears you already have) an stick to it. Try not to cut corners to save to much $, as it may end up costing more. Shop online places like www.thatfishplace.com (and others) to save some green on quality stuff. And READ, READ, READ. There are some great ideas in the DIY forum here.

 

Good luck, and keep us posted!

[Laeelin]

How much "non-live" rock/sand should I start with?

 

I'm assuming that this is something I should get at the LFS?

 

I have read some about DIY non-live rock using cement and crushed shells, but they take 6 months to cure, and I would rather (if possible) to avoid waiting that long to start.

 

I plan on taking everything very very slow, but would rather not have an additional 6 month delay in =)

 

I may reconsider the Goby/Pistol shrimp combo, though. To really enjoy their true nature, you would need a deeper sand bed that is stable (dont want the hole to collapse) or a short piece of PVC pipe to provide a home for them (IMHO). Also, since you are limiting your LR/LS, you need to keep the biomass low, Gobies can get pretty big (saw a 5+incher at the LFS last week). Most shrimp dont withstand swinging water conditions very well and if you dont do frequent water changes you may loose one very fast(IME).

 

I thought they were a good idea for a small tank, but I do have others I love.

 

Clown fist are one of my favorites, and I think a pair would work well in a tank like this.. That sound better?

 

 

I've already changes some ideas in the plan to spread out the purchase out more...

 

1) get tank, some lights, (~$20-$25)

2) get the rest of the lights, non-live rock/sand, Salt ($35)

3) test kits, Heater, Thermometer ($27)

4) RL/SL, ($32) - 2 lbs each

5) cleanup crew($20?)

6) fish/coral/shrimp(???, added slowly over as much time)

 

Also, would 4 X 19/6500 + 1 "blue" light (cant remember what it's called) .. I have saw the difference between bad and good lighting in a reef tank, and all I can say is that's it makes a huge difference.

 

I'm hoping that 4 X 19 + actinic (I remember.. I think) would be enough, would it?

 

Thanks again-

[Jim J]

I would start with a layer of sand (aragonite or crushed coral) an inch or two deep, and about 5 or so pounds of dead rock. I would recommend something called Tufa for the rock. Your LFS should carry it. It is a tan or orangish looking rock with lighter or whitish areas or streaks in it. It's light weight and kind of crumbly. Usually pretty cheap, too. Ive used this stuff many times in fish only and reef tanks. Makes a good base rock.

 

As far as making your own rock...I've made quite a bit of it. I found the instructions at www.garf.org, they explain curing it (not the same thing as curing live rock) But you don't have to wait 6 months..it only takes 1-2 months depending on the size of the pieces and how you cure it. (a little vinegar really speeds it up) I do recommend a high-range ph test kit to monitor the curing process, once stable at 8.2-8.5 it is done.

 

If you want to you can put the non-live sand and rock in the tank day one and fill with fresh water (please dont use tap) and set every thing up, and add the salt later (but before the live stuff).

 

Besure to get your tank up to temp before checking the specific gravity (sg) with a good hydrometer. The glass floating type is accurate enough, and easier to use than a swing-arm type IME.

 

As far as test kits, you can wait a couple of weeks or more after adding the LR/LS, unless you just want to take reading during the cycle. Just be sure to get them and test before getting any livestock. That will help spread the cost out more.

 

4 twisties and an actinic 03 should be sufficient for all fish and most soft or deep water types of corals. You could even hold off on the actinic until you add the corals after the tank matures a little. The fish could care less about the actinic, but then again, coraline algea does seem to develope and grow faster under actinic IMO. Speaking of coraline algea. If you know of anybody that has a SW tank that has good coraline growth, get them to scrape some from their glass and siphon the little bits into a cup or baggie and pour that into your tank, that will seed your rock. Your LFS may do the same thing for free. The more you can get from different places, the better. Diversity is a good thing. I have an old clam shell that I keep in one of my tanks that I use for that purpose. Whenever I set up a new tank, I hold it under water in the new tank and scrape it with a sharp knife.

 

A pair of clowns would be an excellent choice, as long as you get them while they are small.

 

Another choice would be a clown and a royal gramma. They usually totally ignore each other, but will appear to play with or tease each other. I've had that combo in one of my nanos for about 2 years and they get along great. When the do quarrel, the clown is always the one that starts it, but the gramma shuts him up pretty quick, and they never seem to hold a grudge. The gramma seems more concerned about his own reflection in the glass to worry about the clown. They are both very beautiful and fun to watch. Be sure that whatever fish you put in, you do so one at a time to allow the tanks filtration ability to adjust and keep up.

With my clown/gramma combo, the gramma was in first. He completely ignored the clown when I introduced it.

 

I would put the corals in last. Unless they are on a nasty piece of live rock (not completely cured) they shouldn't cause any significant change in water chemistry.

 

I think your plan is viable, and I think you can do it within your budget, you may want to check out some flea markets for good deals, too.

[movingshadow]

I also second the idea of going with a slightly larger tank (like a 10 gallon) as they are somewhat easier to care for, cheap because readily available and easy to upgrade as far as hoods, lights, etc are concerned (try finding a hood for a 5.5g glass full bowfront... ). You don't necessarily need live Sand, get regular crushed coral or the like, a decent amount of liverock and some "dead rock" to be seeded in the tank. If you really want to increase the diversity of beneficial life, try obtaining a half-cup to cup of sand from another reefers aquarium.... hope that helps and wish you the best of luck!!

 

ps: it's sometimes cheaper to use premixed saltwater from the lfs (ask if it's available and how much it costs, I get mine for free = lots of $$$ saved on salt/reverse-osmosis unit, etc.)

[NanoAmyDee]

Here is something else you can do which I am setting up today. It is a LR tank only (some call them "God tanks") and can be very cool!

 

Set up a 10 gallon with a simple lighting system. You can upgrade later. Get the 50g bag of salt as suggested to save money over time. Put in approx 4" of dead sand and buy 1 pound of live sand from you LFS. Some places have "cured" or "true live" sand that they will give you from a tank that has been cycled and is full of life. Get some dead rock from them and one or two pieces of Live Rock. Look online to get the best prices, and try to find someplace that will send you rock in water. This ensures that you don't have a lot of die-off in shipping. Put that together in a tank with one pump, a heater, and get some cheap gear like a thermometer and hydrometer. You don't have to buy test kits just yet. Go to wal-mart or your grocerery store and buy water so you don't have to get a purifier just yet. You will want to get one at some point. Your LFS will have water you can buy as well.

 

The beauty of this type of tank is this...LR has a lot of life on it already. As your tank cycles the die off and rebirth is quite interesting to watch. And you will find there is quite a bit of life hidden within your live rock. You can have this tank cycle like this for literally years without having to add anything else, and still have a ton of life in it.

 

This is just an option. It is simple, and you can make upgrades later. I will let you know what my costs come out to be.

[Jim J]

Cool idea NanoAmyDee.

[movingshadow]

Daniel Knop actually did this as an experiment, letting the tank sit without any care other than top-off of evaporated water. Ran for several years and various forms of life like jellyfish, anemones, etc. literally "evolved"...

[NanoAmyDee]

Hence the term "God Tank"... It is such a cool idea. I have read about the experiment many times over and am so excited to see what happens! I think it will be more interesting to see the life "evolve" rather than fill this tank with store bought corals and such. I have other tanks for that. But the concept is so cool! And it teaches you about totally natural filtration which is a big goal of mine. Less technology is truely the chearper way to go (not the reason I am personally making this my goal) and it really teaches you the down and dirty basics of sea life. Sort of like using a manual camera and developing your own film versus a digital camera and a computer. You are foced to learn more.

[Laeelin]

I like that idea.

 

Hmm, using it as a "god tank", how much lighting should I have?

 

Should I stick with 4 X 19 + actinic , or could I go with 2X19 + actinic, or could I just go with just a full spectrum NO in a standard 10gal hood?

 

Another unrelated question is this:

 

At times I work late, I'm planning on placing the tank on my desk, so will the fact that I have normal room lights as late as 2am some night cause problems? (it's computer work, so I can turn off the lights if I need to, but I normally leave them on so I that I can look stuff up in my books without getting up.)

[mattie]

ultra cheep and reef should not be in the same sentence;)

 

i see you have recieved some good advice towards your econo -reef so i do not want to destroy this thread

 

try to think about a few dollors more one the setup will save you many down the road

[Jim J]

Having the room lights on should have absolutely no effect on the tank. Just think of it as a full moon on a clear nite.

 

My first nano was more fish oriented, and all I had was a NO flourescent in a standard hood. once I started putting REAL live rock in, I replaced the hood with a regular all glass top (to keep the cat out) and installed an extra light strip with an 18" actinic 03. I think either way you went, you would still have some creatures make it. But, to me, a brighter tank looks alot better than NO does.

[Laeelin]

try to think about a few dollors more one the setup will save you many down the road  

 

I wrote a long reply, but deleted it =P

 

If your really talking about something that is jsut a little bit more then it might be worth it, but even $25 is a LOT of money to me right now. =)

 

Basically, money is really really tight, and it will probally take me 6 - 12 months just get this much done..

 

Well unless I win the lottery =P (and thats hard to do when you dont play)

[Whitten]

Alright, what better person to get advice from about cheap than a college kid. Here is what I like to call the wally world special( Walmart). Go to the local one around you and buy a regent 10 gallon starter kit. Then order the 20 watt coralife 50/50 bulbs. One that is complete find you store that will sell you dead aragonite for around 10-15 dollars. You are looking for roughly 20-30 lbs of sand. After all of that is complete you will have not a whole lot. So I suggest getting one large piece of LR around 5 lbs. All in all you are looking at

30.00 for the tank, hood, HOB.

the bulbs are 20-30 shipped (www.webaquatics.com)

A heater is going to be needed.....and don't skimp just buy an Ebo Jager or a Hagen Thermal. 15.00

Do a deal to get all of your LR, sand, and some starter water for around 50.00

[Laeelin]

Well, Tomorrow I hope to have the time to hit home depot and a couple LFS. I have decided to get the light setup I want before I get anything else. The reason I'm wanting to do this is in hopes to help save as much life as possible on the live rock when cycling.

 

I'm going to talk to the LFS to find out if (when I'm ready) I can get a few small live rock pieces that have been shipped directly to them in water (like 2-3 smaller rocks). I live near Gainesville FL, and I'm going to do a "god tank", but still add in a couple clowns in later. (thanks NanoAmyDee) I like the idea of getting the rock in water, and trying to keep as much of the natural life on the rock as possible.

 

I have read that doing partials water changes when curing isn't normally recommended because it expends the cycling time, but in this case would that be a better idea? Say 20% changes every 3 days? Or would I be better off just letting whatever dies, die, to get a stable tank as fast as possible?

 

Basically will the longer cycle time do more harm than the water changes would help, when maximum survival is the primary goal?

 

Also because the only thing the LR/LS will need to support is itself, I should be able to start without even getting the non-live rock. This way I have can spend even less on the start. When you looking at a $85.00 start, saveing $10.00 is a big diffrence.

 

For the live rock, I want to have 2-3 smaller pieces of live rock, and add in a couple larger pieces of tufa rock later. I'm going to use crushed coral as the sand, and seed it with a cup of live sand from the LFS. If I'm lucky I'll be able to really cut cost here by only getting a couple pounds of actual live rock(and only a cup of live sand). I think that watching life slowly spread over the aquarium would be very cool. =)

 

After adding in the LR/LS + Crushed coral, I hope to be able to start watching life in my tank at the $75.00 mark, but we will see how it goes.

 

 

I remembered that my parents had an old 10 gal on there butterfly farm and picked it up. =)

 

Currently I have the 10 gal tank + 1 Rio 180 powerhead sitting next to me humming away in a half filled tank (filled with well water.. JUST to make sure there are no problems with the tank or powerhead.. they are like 3 years old..)

 

After I build the hood I'll post my total so far, and pics. =)

 

So, starting on the first part tomorrow:

 

 

I've grouped things by when I need them now. First what's before curing, then the actual stuff to cure (the fun starts there), and then what I'm going to need after I'm done curing.

 

If you know of something i've missed please let me know.

 

Before Curing

==================

$0.00 - 10 gal tank

$0.00 - Rio 180 PowerHead

$15.00 - Lights - Checking Home Depot - 2 X 19 6500k PC's, or better.

 

$12.00 - Crushed Coral for Sand

$10.00? - Tufan - Rock

$15.00 - Heater

$7.00 - Hydrometer/Thermometer

-----------

$59.00 Total

 

 

For Curing

=================

$25.00? - 2-3 small RL's + a little LS + ~20 gal saltwater (hope to refine this number tomorrow)

---------

$25.00 total

 

 

After Curing

=================

$15.00 - Salt

$15.00? - test kits (I have not had a lot of luck finding them this cheep, but I'll keep looking.. I know I can for $30, but I'm trying to avoid that)

$10.00? - cleanup crew

---------

$40.00 total

 

 

=============

= 124 Total =

=============

 

Thank you everyone for the incredible help ya'll have been. Without this board I wouldn't be able to even start this project.

 

Thank you-

[milhouse74]

You can get a test kit cheap from petsmart. Go to petsmart.com on the day your going to buy it (that day is important) and lookup the test kit. It sells for $14.99 online there. Print out the page, and bring it to petsmart. They will honor the online price as long as it has that days date on the printout.

 

HTH,

Milhouse

[movingshadow]

check ebay for good deals too, often enough people sell equipment, test-kits etc. cheaper than at the lfs.... hth

[~_~]

You really don't need any test kits at all...

[oceano]

I myself tried very hard to find bargains but eventually has to accept the fact that captive reef is a very expensive hobby. It is sad that I found that out after I became addicted to it. Then again, it depends on your expectation, imo.

[dyazdani]

It looks like you've received lots of advice. Here's the basic costs of what I'm doing, should be similar to yours. . .

 

Equipment:

10G tank - $10

Ebo Jager 75W heater - $15

~100GPH powerhead - $15

AquaClear 500 power filter - $30

Coralife 96W PC lights - $100

 

TOTAL - $160

 

Misc:

15Lb bag of aragonite - $12

50G bag of salt - $15

3-5Lb dead rock - $5

 

TOTAL - $32

 

Live Stuff:

3-5Lb live rock - $20

 

GRAND TOTAL - $212

 

Since you have some of the stuff, and don't really need the expensive light (at least right now), you ought to get by with about $75 worth of initial investment.

 

Heater

Aragonite

Dead Rock

Live Rock

Home Depot lighting

10G of premixed SW from LFS

----------------------------------------

to get going...

 

Shortly after, you'll need

 

Source of RO water

Salt mix

OR you can keep buying the premixed water (my suggestion)

Hydrometer

More live stuff (clean-up crew, etc)

 

Remember, once you get things going, heated saltwater and a few bits of live rock, you can let the thing grow and seed for months before spending a bunch of money on livestock or fancy lighting. Just keep up on the water changes.

 

I don't see a need to do 20% every 3 days, a gallon a week is fine. I'd buy the saltwater at the LFS if possible, the economics will work out for a nano. Otherwise, you have to buy RO or distilled water and salt mix. By the time you figure it up, it costs about the same. I'm going to buy a RO/DI unit, but I can pay it back by not buying the water from the LFS. I use about 5-10G a week in my bigger tanks, so I save on econmics of scale.

 

Feel free to PM me as you go along, we'll be going through the same process with the same size tank. I'll keep you posted as I get things up and running. I'm looking for a suitable stand or desk right now.

[nanocat]

I second the vote for buying your salt water at a LFS. By the time you buy RO or distilled water and mix your own salt, you could just buy the salt water for .39 to .59/gal at a LFS.

 

BigAls online sells a titanium heater by Via Aqua for around $15. I use them and they're great.

[Laeelin]

Not getting the test kits didn't ever occur to me, but I guess that just watching the tank will let me know if there is a problem?

 

I also didn't realize that buying the water might be that cheap, so that's an additional savings as well.

 

Thanks for all the help everyone =)

 

I'll be getting LFS prices in a few hours, and talking to them about LR/LS, and a few other things (Hopefully i'll be able to make this very cheap)

 

while TBS is really tempting me, the idea of getting the LR directly from the ocean, never dried, and placing it into the tank directly would be really sweet, but and it's a ~3 hour trip one way, and shipping would be really expensive compared to getting it local.

 

I'm hoping that my LFS has some really really lively live rock, but don't expect them to.

[joekr]

wow, this thread is great!!! This is my first post and I was also looking to do something like this on the cheap...I'll probably spend a little more money than what is being discussed here, but I stoppedby my LFS and tank + lighting = about 260 before tax (20 gallon tank)

 

 

Now I'm thinking smaller and slower while I continue to read about setup and maintenance while looking at 10 - 15 gallons...

 

Thanks all and good luck!!!